This happened to me

[TRIDENT]

I was in college a few years back and in ROTC. I was with a friend eating at Burger King. I was sitting facing the counter, with my back to the playground watching the doors. A dirtbag looking white guy about 35 comes in and starts looking around. I watch him because he is not interested in eating, but looking for somebody. Anyway, he goes past me and out into the playground where some moms and kids are hanging out. I turn left in my chair to see what he is up to. He walks up to a mom holding a little baby and starts yelling at her and then shoves her. She starts yelling back and tries to slap the guy with her free hand. Well, he grabs her arm and punches her smooth in the face. She screams, blood goes everywhere, baby starts screaming. He is worked up now and starts wailing on her and she retreats up against the metal fence surrounding the playyard. At this point I jump up, yell "call the police" to the counter help and run outside. I holler at the guy "Hey A-hole, cut that sh_t out!!!" from about 10 feet away while walking closer. All of a sudden, he wheels around and pulls out a big folding knife and comes at me. I can't get to the door without going past him so I run away jump/climb over the metal cast iron fence (about 6 feet tall) and then the cops show up pretty quick. They drew down on the a-hole and put him in a cruiser. Mom got an ambulance. I went to the station to give my statement.
I wish I would have had my CCW then!

 

[TRIDENT]

I am wondering if I would have goten in trouble with the law if I was to take him out in that situation? After he came at me with the knife? Assuming I had my CCW and 1911 on me.

 

[Aikibiker]

I would guess it depends on the location. In the part of Florida I live in I doubt it would be a problem. The cops might read you the riot act for not waiting for them, but I don't think they would be to upset if you killed the goblin. Especially with a kid involved and him coming at you a knife.

Of course the local department gives free CCW classes for the residents and only charges a small fee ($5 IIRC) for anyone from outside the city limits.

Ask some of the local cops what they think, it could prove instructive.

 

[TarpleyG]

There were TWO percieved threats with deadly weapons. First, he was pummeling a smaller (I assume), defenseless woman and second, he came at you with a knife with the intent to do bodily harm. You bet you @$$ you'd have been justified in shooting him.

GT

 

[ShaiVong]

"But you could have shot him in the legs to disable him! You didnt have to kill him!"

I know you would hear that.

I love it when people try and reason that they would use a firearm to DISABLE somebody! I suppose you could try for the kneecap but... I'm pretty sure you have a fair to good chance of dying after being SHOT anywhere.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The next time you're tempted to shoot for the kneecaps...

Think about how well you did on your last pin match.

Now think about how well you did on your last silhouette match.

Nuff said.

 

[ShaiVong]

And none of those targets come sprinting at you, or dodge from side to side

 

[BerettaNut92]

A buddy of mine, just graduated from the academy actually, had his face reconstructed when he was 19.

He told some guy to stop hitting his girlfriend. Guy comes back later and is about to smack my buddy in the back of the head with a 2x4. My buddy turns around and takes it in the face.

He told me not to break up a fight between a guy and a girl. The guy and girl made up, by the way, and my buddy couldn't eat solid food for probably six months.

There are witnesses which is good, I probably would have done something, but if it were just me, them two and no witnesses, I'd hate to say this but I'd call the popo and probably wouldn't intervene.

Woman: "That guy pulled ...A GUN on my husband!!!!"

[putting on Nomex jumpsuit]

 

[ShaiVong]

Correct as usual King Skunky, you don't know who your allies are, and even clear cut situations can become way more complex than you think.

 

[WYO]

I would like to add to what Skunkabilly said. Although you thought that you were assisting a damsel in distress, the woman in that case may well have been a witness for the prosecution as well as the plaintiff in a wrongful death action against you, had you used a firearm against the guy. A lot of abused women repeatedly go back to the people who abuse them. She may have testified that the guy got like that, but he never actually hurt her badly, and that nothing bad would have happened had you not intervened. But, instead, you interjected yourself into a situation that was not your business, overreacted, and a death or serious bodily injury resulted that was not necessary.

The other side is that you could have ended up like Skunkabilly's friend.

No, it sounds like the situation got resolved the best way it could have, under the circumstances. Don't second guess yourself.

 

[Denny Hansen]

In Arizona it's lawful to shoot someone outside the usual "in fear of one's life or that of another's/imminent death" requirements. They include arson of an occupied dwelling, 1st and second degree burglary, homicide, sexual assault (rape), and a few others.

True case:
Law-abiding CCW permit holder comes across a man and woman in deserted park. Woman is nude and tied face-forward to a tree, male subject appears to be whipping her and she moaning. Not knowing if the man had other weapons and not wanting to give away his tactical advantage, our hero focuses on the front sight and Mr. Bad Guy is DRT.

Woman screams--not help or thank you--but "Why did you shoot my husband?" Turns out the happy couple enjoyed having, uh, "unusual" sex. Justified shooting under Arizona law but, well, things are not always as they first appear.

Lots of things to consider, including both criminal and civil prosecution.

Trident-
In the first post you said you were at BK eating with a friend. Just wonderin' what he was doing during all this. Two against one, even with a knife involved, changes the complexion of this considerably, especially, and possibly, in the minds of a jury.

Denny

 

[igor]

The very worst situations I ever had to get into always have involved women. By themselves drunk, or with their drunk not-so-significant others... it's awful. Entirely unpredictable and very, very dangerous.

My advice is not to get involved at all unless grave bodily damage or homicide is imminent or your duty proscribes you to. And even then to be prepared for anything your imagination can extricate during your darkest eclipses of reason. :banghead:

 

[TRLaye]

ShaiVong,

I must strongly disagree with your comment of "I'm pretty sure you have a fair to good chance of dying after being SHOT anywhere." Methinks you have been watching to much TV. ';>)

MOST people survive gunshot wounds. In fact I read in some medical paper somewhere that about 50% of those shot in the head survive. Their lives may be different after the injury but they survived.

Even in the "Old West" many people only died later of infections after having been shot.

There's a reason why we practice and use the Failure to Stop drill. Even if not always successful.

Tom

 

[DeFens]

Hi all
I'm a newbie to this forum, but have had a bit of training here and there. Injecting oneself into the fracas was of questionable judgment, but preventing someone from being injured is certainly a good thing.

As far as scaling the fence instead of standing your ground and shooting it out - as far as I am concerned any potentially lethal situation where nobody gets shot is much better than the alternative. Whether you are justified to do so or not.

 

[Jim March]

Issuing a verbal challenge ("Hey, what the hell are you doing?") isn't a bad idea for a situation like this.

What happens then is all about whether or not you're prepared for the potential consequences.

Personally, I'd have done similar to what Trident did, 'cept given the level of violence already witnessed, I'd have had my knife already clear of it's sheath and palmed while still closed. I'd have made the verbal challenge at around 15 feet - that way, if he goes for a gun I'm close enough to close, if he goes for anything else I've got enough time to react.

If he wants a fistfight, the closed knife is a handload and can do "kubaton" stuff. If he pulls anything else, he's gonna face a blade - I'm a lousy runner.

I've saved a man's life before by driving off four assailants. Wasn't necessarily smart, but I could look myself in a mirror.

 

[TRIDENT]

Turns out the guy just got out prison in Oklahoma a week earlier and drove down to find his old lady. He went back to prison for 14 more years for this incident. Charges were assualt with a deadly weapon and child endangerment.
I was lucky he didn't stick the knife between my ribs while I was climbing the wrought iron fence, but he went back to the woman to work on her some more.
I am not sure whether it was right or wrong to go out there, but I would probably do it again today. Especially with a kiddo in the way.
Denny- my friend was a petite female, she made sure the cavalry was on the way.

 

[S_O_Laban]

Some times you have to follow your "gut " in a situation. When it is all over, as the saying goes, hind sight is 20/20. The bottom line, nobody dies and the BG does hard time, doesn't get much better.

 

[yucapote]

At this point I jump up, yell "call the police" to the counter help and run outside. I holler at the guy "Hey A-hole, cut that sh_t out!!!" from about 10 feet away while walking closer

IMNSHO that was not your bussiness and you had already helped when you urged someone to call the cops. What you did was brave, but foolish.

I wish I would have had my CCW then

What for, to kill the guy? It looks that you are looking for trouble to have an excuse to shoot somebody.

 

[Kharn]

He walks up to a mom holding a little baby and starts yelling at her and then shoves her.
...
He is worked up now and starts wailing on her and she retreats up against the metal fence surrounding the playyard.

Was she still holding the baby while getting wailed on?

I hope it would be a legal shoot in that situation, because I would have probably drawn and fired if I had a pistol and a clear shot. It doesnt take much force to permanetly harm or kill a baby or toddler.

Kharn

 

[TRIDENT]

yucapote- the last thing I ever want to do is hurt or kill someone. I do wish I had my gun because I was backed up against a fence with a bad guy brandishing a big folding knife at me from 10 feet. Would I have shot him before I let him cut or stab me? You bet. Should I have put myself into the situation? Probably not. Would I do it again? Probably so.
I don't need to be some kind of hero or vigilante. I am glad we have a legal system to handle all the problems our society faces. However, I don't want to live in a place where a man brutalizes a young mother and baby and everyone just stands around and watches and nobody says or does anything. Do you?

 

[TRIDENT]

kharn- She was holding the screaming baby the whole time. She was trying to protect her little head from the punches he was throwing. I think she was scared to drop the baby for fear he was going to take it and flee. I am not sure whether any of the blows landed on the infant, but very possible.

 

[curt]

Be thankful that you didn't have to shoot. Shooting is a dangerous thing in a playground, it ain't collateral damage when its a kid. The kids while they did have to see a man beating a women did not have to see a man bleeding out in front of them and you did not have to deal with the anquish and hassles of shooting someone.

In the closed confines of a BK playground full of innocents you were probably at a disadvantage against a guy with a knife anyway.

Glad you're okay.

 

[Horsesense]

"kharn- She was holding the screaming baby the whole time. She was trying to protect her little head from the punches he was throwing. I think she was scared to drop the baby for fear he was going to take it and flee. I am not sure whether any of the blows landed on the infant, but very possible."


You did good. Consequences be dammed, I will not stand by and watch a woman and child be brutalized.
Seeing that you were unarmed, it would have been better to keep the open door at your back while you yelled or have not said anything and just rained down justice, with no warning.

Yes I realize that good guys do sometimes get killed and I have a wife and daughter who need me but IMO a man who would not act, in a situation like this, is not a MAN at all.

 

[Powderman]

Trident:

First, hindsight is always 20/20. You can always think yourself into a corner, or out of one. Don't. What has happened has happened.

That being said, you have my thanks and respect for going to the defense of another human being. You, sir, are muy hombre and the world is a better place for people like you.

That being said, if I responded to your call, and said dirt bag was taking a dirt nap, I would have first secured your sidearm, gotten statements from all involved, handed your handgun back, and informed you that the court would probably be contacting you on a later date.

Again, thanks.

 

[Mr. Black]

You were right to go outside and attempt to stop the situation.

If you had a CCW it would have been very dumb to use it to protect the woman. In most states, deadly force is only justifyable if you acted not on a reasonable belief, but a true one. So, you though he was hurting her but it was her husband, etc; you're screwed.

Now when he came at you with the knife (he pulled it first) and you couldn't retreat with complete safety; jumping a fence and turning your back on a man with a knife is not complete safety-you would have been justified.

Now be happy it worked out and you didn't have a gun.