Tourist jailed over marshmallows!

[Warren]

I wonder how diferent things would have gone for her if Yellowstone was privately owned.

I don't think the hypothetical owners of the park would have set up a system that would allow this sort of thing to happen.

 

[CEShooter]

True this was a "minor" infraction, but how many larger criminals have been brought down by "minor" infractions? If I remember all of these correctly, Capone was brought down over a minor tax law, Tim McVeigh was caught over a minor traffic citation, and one of the terrorist for 9/11 was stopped and then let go over a minor traffic violation. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Heck, I'd bet a weeks pay that if this lady had been a terrorist and a week later had blew up a nuke in some major city that this board would be screaming about how the gov't didn't do its job when they ignored this minor warrant to go after the "real" criminals. But in the big picture I'm the type of guy that thinks if you do something wrong and get caught your punishment should be inforced as much as reasonably possible. A crime is a crime is a crime type of mentality I guess. And I also belief that the founding fathers included the 5th Amendment with intent playing a large role. Judging from the biographies I've read of them, they were more of the practical mindset than the literal one.

 

[sendec]

And how could this all have been avoided?

Mistakes happen. I am amazed by the immediate call for a suit, when we are the first to criticize others for a entitlement/ victimhood mindset. Yeah it's unpleasant, but the root cause of her inconvenience was her inability to follow a rule that was put into place because people could'nt follow even simpler rules like don't feed the 2,000 pound predators. Violation of her civil rights, well, if you want to make a federal case out of it.

I have no idea how many citations the Central Violation Bureau handles, but probability dictates that there will be errors.

I would prefer that the thread be titled something different, like "tourist jailed because idiots get eaten by animals doing what animals do ordinarily when tempted by tasty morsels, kept in either plastic bags or sleeping bags."

 

[madcowburger]

Let me see if I've got this straight: you can't even go on a cruise now without being subject to detainment, search, interrogation, and warrant checks? *Is* there still any way to travel unmolested by men with guns and badges? (Believe me, *walking* sure ain't it.)

And if the food storage regulations in national parks are for the protection of people, who are the "no firearms" regulations supposed to protect?

Personally, I stay the hell out of national parks, just like I stay the hell out of places like Ohio, Illinois, California, Massachusetts, and New York.

The rule used to be: "Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you." But the new rule in national parks is "Some days the bear eats you, and then the bear eats you on all the other days too, since we'd rather see you eaten by a bear than able to protect yourself."

Now I know better than to ever go on a cruise as well.

MCB

 

[0007]

Not wishing to splash gasoline on the flames, but how did people avoid being eaten by bears for the 150 years or so before some bureaucrat came up with this rule?
If you aren't smart enough to avoid being eaten by a bear(the two "greenies" in Alaska come to mind), then maybe you DO need a rule telling you what do do. But if you arrest someone AFTER they have paid their fine for violating one of YOUR silly rules, somebody else should also get burned.
And if you can't keep track of who's paid and who hasn't, well, maybe you have too many rules.

 

[c_yeager]

Not wishing to splash gasoline on the flames, but how did people avoid being eaten by bears for the 150 years or so before some bureaucrat came up with this rule?

Umm, actually they didnt.

Let me see if I've got this straight: you can't even go on a cruise now without being subject to detainment, search, interrogation, and warrant checks? *Is* there still any way to travel unmolested by men with guns and badges? (Believe me, *walking* sure ain't it.)

OK, When someone LEAVES THE COUNTRY and comes back you DONT think we should check them out? I mean how do ww know she isnt Bin Laden in a dress? Are you in favor of open borders too?

Frankly i think extensive checks at the BORDERS are one of the most SANE things the Fed does.

 

[hammer4nc]

0007 asked:

how did people avoid being eaten by bears for the 150 years or so before some bureaucrat came up with this rule?

c yeager answered:

Umm, actually they didnt.

Again, some perspective: http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/yell_bear_maul_info.html

From 1980 to 1997, over 47 million people visited Yellowstone National Park (YNP). During the same period, 23 people were injured by bears. The chance of being injured by a bear while in the park is approximately 1 in 2.1 million.

Yellowstone was established in the 1870's, now gets 3 million visitors a year. While we could debate the efficacy of the bear/food rules, this wasn't the main thrust of the story.

C yeager may have a point that checking for warrants might be a wise action. However, in light of our unsecured borders/lax checking elsewhere, checking returning cruise ship passenger lists may arguably be nothing more than window dressing, from a national security standpoint.

Returning to the central focus, and the one that caused this story to get noticed in the first place, once a NCIC "hit" was flagged in the computer, were the subsequent actions reasonable? Cost effective? What was the prosecutor trying to accomplish, when he read that the source of the "hit" was a food storage citation in a national park, yet still decided to imprison and arraign the lady, rather than just issue a paperwork citation?

Curiously, and invariably, some on this board can be counted on to applaud when a citizen is hurt by govt. "They deserved it, yeah baby!"

If the official acts like a "mind numbed robot" (to quote a Rush phrase), in light of the facts of the case, even better. I guess expecting the officials to exercise some discretion, and treat the enforcement resource as a valuable, limited commodity (not waste it meaninglessly), is too much to ask?

 

[Firethorn]

Warrents are checked for basically every time an officer runs a name. Stopped for a traffic violation? Warrent search done. Come into the country through an airport? Warrent search done. Get checked on a cruise line? Warrent search done. Incidentally, I can think of a number of ways for illegals to sneak into the US on board a cruise ship.

I'm all for open immigration, as long as they inprocess and go through the legal procedures. There's no reason for us to let known international criminals in, for example.

 

[ravinraven]

Gov't paperwork mistakes...

...torque me off. Especially when some idiot threatens me for something that I have not been wrong about. I had the IRS after me for not making a payment I HAD made. Not only that, but they quoted the exact amount I owed and had no way of knowing that except having received the payment and the papers that went with it. And the check had cleared. They still threatened me with all kinds of violence if I did not fill out some forms for them to use to decide if I had paid or not.

I was talking to an idiot in Andover, Mass IRS center. I yelled into the phone: "YOU IDIOTS MADE THE MISTAKE. YOU COULD NOT KNOW HOW MUCH I OWED WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED IT. AND THE CHECK HAS CLEARED. NOW YOU EITHER DROP THIS NOW OR WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A VERY STRONGLY WORDED NEWSPAPER ARTICLE AND A VERY EXPENSIVE LAWSUIT."

The idiot [female] kept up the blather about what I was going to have to do. I shouted again into the phone. DID I MAKE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR? She kept blathering. I shouted about PERFECTLY CLEAR again. She kept it up. I shouted again. I went around with the b.... I'll bet twenty times before she hung up.

I had everybody in the office rolling on the floor. I never heard another word from the idiots. That was thirty years ago and a couple of the guys are still laughing.

I did the same thing four years ago when the DMV here in good old NY noticed someway that I had not insured a car that I had sold and transferred the policy to the new[er] one. They sent me a threatening letter and I got on the blower and told then that I sold the car, the new owner insured it and so forth.

The dunce on the other end of the phone said that I would have to get a copy of the bill of sale of the old car to prove I wasn't still driving it.

This time I remained low voiced and said that since it was their screw up, they could figure it out any way they wanted to but if they carried out any of "your idiotic threats" we will have a nice big lawsuit.

I don't think they like lawsuits.

I hope the gal in the story takes these anal orifices for about five million.

rr

 

[jimpeel]

ravinraven

My favorite ploy when threatening legal action for these types is to ask "And what was your name again?"

"Joe Doaks"

"Is your name 'Joe' or 'Joseph'?"

"Joseph."

"And how do you spell 'Doaks'?"

"D-o-a-k-s."

"Thank you. I just want to get the name correct for the lawsuit. Have you ever been named as co-respondent in a lawsuit before this, Joseph Doaks?"

They tend to get a bit more cooperative after that.

 

[MeekandMild]

Let me get this straight. Was this FELONY marshmallow carry or MISDEMEANOR marshmallow carry?

 

[c_yeager]

"Thank you. I just want to get the name correct for the lawsuit. Have you ever been named as co-respondent in a lawsuit before this, Joseph Doaks?"

They tend to get a bit more cooperative after that.

I take it you havent actually tried this very often. I get threatened with being "sued" just about every day. And i bet everyone in law enforcement gets the same treatment. Getting yet another "lawsuit" is more grounds for a chuckle than fear.

 

[13A]

Rainraven. How dare you ruffle your master's feathers.

I wouldn't try that with today's "friendlier" IRS agents.

 

[dustind]

CEShooter said:Can someone please tell me where it says that gov't employees are above paperwork mistakes? Yeah, let's tie up the legal system with more lawsuits because someone was inconvienced. All you greedy people who are looking to get rich quick over a clerical error I would like to thank you for helping turn America into the greed driven moral cespool it is, for increased insurance rates, medical costs, and the since of intitlement so strong in the lazy and weak. What happened to this lady is called life. Mistakes happen and yes innocent people do have to deal with them. She has every right to be pissed but entitlement to money, give me a break. It's like some lawyer from Japan said, "If a person here gets hit by a foul ball they say, 'It is my honor', if they get hit by a foul ball in America they sue." But this is getting away from the thread. This lady got caught up in an innocent mistake after all of the proper steps were taken, the error was corrected, end of story. She's now got a good story to tell/bitch about at the water cooler. That's it.

There are other ways to run the system so that people are not...

photographed and fingerprinted. She said she endured harsh language and catcalls from male prisoners. She became so upset she vomited. Mostly, she said, she cried.

This was preventable. There is no incentive for the feds to fix the system unless people sue. She has the right to collect damages. An honest mistake within any competent system would not have involved her riding inside of a police car. They should have given her the benefit of the doubt because it was only one ticket. She would have had to face it again if she was lying, there was no reason to arrest her over it.

If I make a mistake and harm someone they are within their rights to make me pay for it. That is the reason why I have liability insurance on my car and motorcycle.

No one said she should become an instant millionare, but she should collect damages.

CEShooter said: Heck, I'd bet a weeks pay that if this lady had been a terrorist and a week later had blew up a nuke in some major city that this board would be screaming about how the gov't didn't do its job when they ignored this minor warrant to go after the "real" criminals.

That is false. I would not want the governmnent throwing people in jail for no reason in the hopes that they may get lucky and stop a serious crime from happening.

Capone was brought down for millions (IIRC) of dollars of tax evasion. He sat in jail for commiting the crime of tax evasion.

 

[Frohickey]

When Assistant U.S. Attorney Peter Outerbridge protested that there might be "some discrepancy" between Clarke's story and the documents, the judge added, "Seven hours in jail, I think, is a suitable punishment for leaving marshmallows out at a camp site."

"I apologize to you," O'Sullivan added, looking down from the bench at Clarke, who was fighting back tears.

"We were acting on what we believed was accurate information," said Zach Mann, a spokesman at Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which conducted the random check. He said agents merely were enforcing the bench warrant.

I think that O'Sullivan should start an inquiry as to who is to blame for the clerical error that showed Clarke to not have paid the fine, when in fact she did.

I think that Asst.US Atty Peter Outerbridge should accompany Clarke on a replacement romantic cruise after the culprit who made the clerical error has been found and made to pay via garnished wages, for a cruise. As for Peter Outerbridge, "Seven weeks in the cruise ship brig, I think, is a suitable punishment for making a inane stupid statement in court."