mljdeckard
Member
Exactly. If this had been a team effort of killers, the defender would be dead now. I carry the same gun, two spare mags.
I have carried in the Trolley many times.
I have carried in the Trolley many times.
breaking news, Salt Lake City shooting
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Sean Dempsey
Member
No, I don't. And until today, I hadn't carried a gun in 2007.
Believe me, I see the benefit, but also, there's the CCW paradox of: I probably will never use my weapon in a life threatening situation, so why carry a speed strip? Because when I do need it in a life threatening situation, I'll want to have it.
It's questions like yours that make me wonder, also if:
- my car first aid kit is adequate (its very small)
- I have basic CPR training, should I get more advanced emergency medical training?
To me, yes, Guns can save lives. But man, what if someone is shot and bleeding, the badguy is dead, and if I don't do something medically, the person is going to bleed to death.
I personally don't know where my preparation continuum ends. I'm not being flip, I honestly am considering now taking some advanced CPR classes beyond the basics, maybe even seeing if I can train with some EMT's. I'll probably need those skills before I need 5 extra .38's.
But what if I DO need those 5 extra rounds someday? I can't answer any of these questions.
Believe me, I see the benefit, but also, there's the CCW paradox of: I probably will never use my weapon in a life threatening situation, so why carry a speed strip? Because when I do need it in a life threatening situation, I'll want to have it.
It's questions like yours that make me wonder, also if:
- my car first aid kit is adequate (its very small)
- I have basic CPR training, should I get more advanced emergency medical training?
To me, yes, Guns can save lives. But man, what if someone is shot and bleeding, the badguy is dead, and if I don't do something medically, the person is going to bleed to death.
I personally don't know where my preparation continuum ends. I'm not being flip, I honestly am considering now taking some advanced CPR classes beyond the basics, maybe even seeing if I can train with some EMT's. I'll probably need those skills before I need 5 extra .38's.
But what if I DO need those 5 extra rounds someday? I can't answer any of these questions.
bogie
Member
I suspect it may be obvious... If some nutjob is blazing away, and yelling about allah and virgins, that's REALLY obvious... If some one is behind a bench, looks around and asks you where the shooter is, he's probably not the shooter.
Guys, 99% of the time, if not more often, common sense works. THINK.
Guys, 99% of the time, if not more often, common sense works. THINK.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Why does this stereotypical gun control response make me think of that judge some years ago who said to a rape victim, "When rape is inevitable, just relax and try to enjoy it"?
So Mr. Sackett's brilliant idea is that, since we can't protect against every nutcase, we should be egalitarian and ensure that we all have an equal oppotunity to get killed. Great thinking, Gary.
Ben Shepherd
Member
The whole "no guns at work" thing:
The guy that got hit in the back that warned everybody? Co-worker of mine in another building.
The girl that got killed? Daughter of another co-worker.
We have a "no guns" policy at work. ALMOST EVERYONE in my building came up and told me that "If it happens here, I'm running for/to you."
WHY? We have a no guns policy. I can't carry. If you're not willing to break policy to protect yourself, then why the heck should it be my job to do so?
On a bright note though, the guy that got hit in the back is expected to recover fully.
And so far the media has been fairly neutral on the pro/non gun thing from what I've read and seen.
The guy that got hit in the back that warned everybody? Co-worker of mine in another building.
The girl that got killed? Daughter of another co-worker.
We have a "no guns" policy at work. ALMOST EVERYONE in my building came up and told me that "If it happens here, I'm running for/to you."
WHY? We have a no guns policy. I can't carry. If you're not willing to break policy to protect yourself, then why the heck should it be my job to do so?
On a bright note though, the guy that got hit in the back is expected to recover fully.
And so far the media has been fairly neutral on the pro/non gun thing from what I've read and seen.
ZeSpectre
Member
I've noticed that too. Maybe I'm being too cynical but it seem to me that you have a shooting with no justified CCW or such involved and the press screams. Have someone meet force with equal force (as happened in this case) and the press is remarkably neutral. Hrmmmm.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Actually here in Utah, with the exception of a few wingnuts like Rocky we have a fairly decent government stance on firearms issues.
All Rocky has been up to since Bush was re-elected last time is pander, snivel, and grovel his way towards an expected cabinet position under Madame Hillary.
I'm just glad to see very little armchair QB stuff going on her on THR. The whole thing is horrible. At work it's alittle different: Everyone here at work says "You'd of shot him right?"
How do I know? I wasn't there. The tactics/descisions involved are way too convoluted to guess at after the fact.
Given the general pro-gun stance in this state though, I am suprised that there was no one else that did have the opportunity/means to engage him sooner. Very sad that it wasn't stopped earlier.
There are only a couple things that the media has done(SOP for them) that stuck in my craw:
1. They played the old "My nephew was a good boy. We don't know what happened." sobbing relative crap.
2. They actually had the unmitigated gall to ask the police spokeperson "Do you think the police responded with excessive force in this situation?" WTH?!
Idiots!
All Rocky has been up to since Bush was re-elected last time is pander, snivel, and grovel his way towards an expected cabinet position under Madame Hillary.
I'm just glad to see very little armchair QB stuff going on her on THR. The whole thing is horrible. At work it's alittle different: Everyone here at work says "You'd of shot him right?"
How do I know? I wasn't there. The tactics/descisions involved are way too convoluted to guess at after the fact.
Given the general pro-gun stance in this state though, I am suprised that there was no one else that did have the opportunity/means to engage him sooner. Very sad that it wasn't stopped earlier.
There are only a couple things that the media has done(SOP for them) that stuck in my craw:
1. They played the old "My nephew was a good boy. We don't know what happened." sobbing relative crap.
2. They actually had the unmitigated gall to ask the police spokeperson "Do you think the police responded with excessive force in this situation?" WTH?!
Idiots!
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Ben Shepherd
Member
One last bit here folks, then I'll shut up on this.
Given the nature of my co-workers injuries, and the distance involed, it looks like we have one thing that worked in our favor:
The shooter had no idea how to use that shotgun effectively. If he had, it would have been a lot worse.
Given the nature of my co-workers injuries, and the distance involed, it looks like we have one thing that worked in our favor:
The shooter had no idea how to use that shotgun effectively. If he had, it would have been a lot worse.
Mr Kablammo
Member
The book "A Citizen's Guide to Stopping Suicide Bombers" states that 'flight risk' is preferable to 'freeze risk'. Nonetheless, if armed, I like to think that I would take cover and make the first shot back count. This has gotten me thinking about upgrading to premium HP ammo in 0.40. And I do think this is a case of 'SJS' as Daniel Pipes calls it.
Because the majority of cops in Utah, (at least the ones that I know and associate with) are pro gun.
So as soon as they heard about this, many of them were thinking the same thing that posters on here were. I hope it was stopped by a CCW guy. That steals the anti's thunder.
As one cop said. "Best if he was shot by a CCW. Second best by a off duty cop. Third by a uniformed cop. And worst if he offed himself."
So as soon as they heard about this, many of them were thinking the same thing that posters on here were. I hope it was stopped by a CCW guy. That steals the anti's thunder.
As one cop said. "Best if he was shot by a CCW. Second best by a off duty cop. Third by a uniformed cop. And worst if he offed himself."
MatthewVanitas
Member
Just for some perspective, I dropped by some of the left-wing forums to read their discussions on the shooting.
The morbidly amusing thing was that, before the shooters I.D. was announced, most were predicting that he was a returned Iraq or Afghanistan vet. When it turned out otherwise, several posters sulked that "it'll be much worse in a year or two when all the returning troops start going nuts."
Surprisingly, most of the anti-gun arguments were countered by folks saying that it wouldn't help to make murder "super double illegal". Not too much coverage on the religion thing, more on the lack of mental health care options in the U.S.
Left knee jerks / right knee jerks...
-MV
The morbidly amusing thing was that, before the shooters I.D. was announced, most were predicting that he was a returned Iraq or Afghanistan vet. When it turned out otherwise, several posters sulked that "it'll be much worse in a year or two when all the returning troops start going nuts."
Surprisingly, most of the anti-gun arguments were countered by folks saying that it wouldn't help to make murder "super double illegal". Not too much coverage on the religion thing, more on the lack of mental health care options in the U.S.
Left knee jerks / right knee jerks...
-MV
FourTeeFive
Member
When I first read this what came to my mind was the four-minute response time. Yes, that is quick in terms of LEO response, but for someone stuck in that mall four minutes probably seemed like an eternity. Think of how much damage an armed person can inflict in four minutes. A quick end to the matter is much more likely to come from a carrying civilian than anyone else, just because they are there. Right (or wrong) place at the right time.
Wes Janson
Member
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Anyone else appreciate the delicious irony of that statement, taken in the larger context of the gun control movement? It's too bad they're too foolish to listen to their own words...or perhaps they do, and simply don't care.
This is why we need to get "Castle Doctrine"
In PA if I knew a murderer was 200 feet away killing innocents I am required to retreat or risk being called a murderer.
200 years ago in the same situation I'd just be a militaman defending my fellow citizens.
We all need to get our rear in gear for '08.
In PA if I knew a murderer was 200 feet away killing innocents I am required to retreat or risk being called a murderer.
200 years ago in the same situation I'd just be a militaman defending my fellow citizens.
We all need to get our rear in gear for '08.
bogie
Member
Guys - I shoot benchrest. Bad knees, bad back, bad attitude...
Combat shooting is not my game. And there is NO WAY I would ever do anything like this, but you gotta put yourself in the nutjob's place...
If I had a mall with a sizable group of people clustered or herdable, and a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck, and remained relatively unmolested, I'd be able to get a LOT of them within four minutes. Maybe not fatally, but I could see a lot of life-altering wounds. Couple that with a .38 for coverage while reloading, and...
Those people in that mall were VERY lucky. Four minutes is an eternity.
For that matter, he could have walked in with a couple of 5 gallon gasoline cans... Or a case of molotovs. Would have been far more casualties.
Four minutes.
Combat shooting is not my game. And there is NO WAY I would ever do anything like this, but you gotta put yourself in the nutjob's place...
If I had a mall with a sizable group of people clustered or herdable, and a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck, and remained relatively unmolested, I'd be able to get a LOT of them within four minutes. Maybe not fatally, but I could see a lot of life-altering wounds. Couple that with a .38 for coverage while reloading, and...
Those people in that mall were VERY lucky. Four minutes is an eternity.
For that matter, he could have walked in with a couple of 5 gallon gasoline cans... Or a case of molotovs. Would have been far more casualties.
Four minutes.
qlajlu
Member
F-Troop now involved
Here is a video update on the investigation. The BATFE (F-Troop) is now investigating to determine the last FFL transfer of the shotgun and the handgun used in the shooting at the Trolley Square Mall.
KUTV is also advertising that they have home video taken inside the mall during the rampage. If they post it on their Web site I will make sure a link is provided in this thread.
Here is a video update on the investigation. The BATFE (F-Troop) is now investigating to determine the last FFL transfer of the shotgun and the handgun used in the shooting at the Trolley Square Mall.
KUTV is also advertising that they have home video taken inside the mall during the rampage. If they post it on their Web site I will make sure a link is provided in this thread.
Car Knocker
Member
What does this have to do with the shooting at Trolley Square?????
qlajlu
Member
Home video inside the mall during the shootings.
Here is a home video taken inside the Trolley Square Mall during the police handling of the situation. Notice that the interior is not as open as some malls.
This is the guy that took the home video with some very complimentary things to say about the way the police went into the mall and handled the situation.
Here is a home video taken inside the Trolley Square Mall during the police handling of the situation. Notice that the interior is not as open as some malls.
This is the guy that took the home video with some very complimentary things to say about the way the police went into the mall and handled the situation.
Car Knocker
Member
One could say the same about real estate agents, car dealers, hair salons, etc., but that doesn't make it relevant to this thread.
Aguila Blanca
Member
PA laws don't provide for citizens to employ lethal force in defense of third parties? Are you certain?msb45 said:
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