Unlicensed Concealed Carry

[ctdonath]

Broadcasting? Licensed only because there is so little space on the radio spectrum. It's a matter of logistics regarding a limited public space, keeping the peace via organization.

Protests? Again, licensed only to organize use of public space. Yes, you can have a million man march.

Large scale publication? This website is not "licensed", nor are you when posting - yet the audience is tens of thousands. Only key cost involved is, again, logistical organization to make sure IP addresses etc. are coordinated and operate smoothly.

Now, pray tell, explain why _I_ need a license, when no public logistical coordination is involved, and I know more about the subject than the person issuing the license or administering the test? what makes the issuing "authority" lord over my rights? what "strict scrutiny" justifies any restrictions upon me?

 

[ctdonath]

no one has any facts about guns

:banghead:

 

[wagoneer1019]

my father is a ccw instructer

and he refused to sign 2 ccw apps and refunded the fees one was a 78 year old man who had parkenson's so bad he could not hit the cardboard on the short shoot, was a huge liabily. The other guy was some nut job who everyother question "do I GET to shoot some one if...."

 

[mr.72]

TAB you are kidding right? I quit.

 

[TAB]

nope.

 

[starshooter231]

No, licensing the right to carry concealed is a violation of our RKBA.

TAB asks

Let me ask you this, do you know all the laws in your state that pertain to CCW?

Yes I think I do. I have spent many many hours reading my states firearms laws, and asking questions of LEOs, and lawyers when I still had questions.

Do you want ti know what my real problem with licensing in Michigan is? In order to get a CPL you MUST take an 8 hour training course ($75-$300), fill out CPL application (FREE), submit application for approval ($105), with photos ($6-$15), wait for the county gun board to approve or deny you application.
If you want to open carry you MUST do the following: Have a gun, keep it "in plain sight" the cost ZERO

 

[JesseL]

Let me ask a question of those of you who think some sort of training should be mandatory for legal CCW.

Do you believe that Alaska or Vermont need to fix their laws, or that those of us living in states where unlicensed open carry is legal should lose that right?

 

[woerm]

don't need no stinkin permit

what exactly is the crime rate in VT vs NY State anyway?


Vt is lower, hmmm maybe they are on to something there.

r

 

[H088]

lol TAB, I can't stop laughing, you honestly believe the 2nd amendment does not refer to the citizen? Come on.

 

[TallPine]

I would feel better if voters had to be licensed before they are allowed to vote. And they should have to take some civics training and pass a test to show that they are capable of voting intelligently.

$100 or so for a class and $75 for the voting permit is not too much to spend for the priviledge to vote.

I would feel much better if I knew that only trained and licensed persons were allowed to do something as important as voting.

 

[texas bulldog]

i second what tallpine says...
anything that makes people feel better about what others do with their own rights is surely worthwhile.

TAB...i smell a troll...

 

[Sniper X]

I do open carry, and CCW

And did actually carry CCW before it was law here in NM becuase of two reasons, one it was and is a misdemeanor, and two because I have had cops before CCW ask me to "cover it up" so I didn't scare people. So, I just would either open or CCW before CCW. I don;t think anyone should by law have to get a CCW license, but like the fact you have to be trained to get one.

 

[TAB]

lol TAB, I can't stop laughing, you honestly believe the 2nd amendment does not refer to the citizen? Come on.

I'm stating a current fact, didn't say I beleaved it, just stating the current standing on that issuse.

 

[LongRider]

Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family.

Any effort to deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization is an infringement of my God given right to bear arms and have the means to protect my life and liberty therefor a violation of 2A

 

[H088]

I'm stating a current fact, didn't say I beleaved it, just stating the current standing on that issuse.

Well that argument could be used on any of the rights given by the constitution.

Even one where the supreme court has ruled, with those "activist" judges and all.........

 

[jrfoxx]

why yes I can show this training is necessary... do you know all of your state laws in regards to CCW?

Actually, I do, but not because of the training class the state of Oregon requires. My Or CHL instructor gave several non-existent laws in class. I only know them because I took the time to learn them. A class will have no effect on those that cant, or wont, take the initiative to learn on their own. On the flip-side, I also have A WA permit, which requires no class. I also knew all of WA's laws when I lived there, again, without any class. Also, having live in both states, one that requires a class (with a live fire component", and one that required neither, I have seen absolutely no evidence that either state has more or less ND's, "bad shoots", or CHL/CPL holders violating any guns laws. just like when you compare states to VT and AK.

As for the "no one has any facts about guns " comment, there are lots of resources for these types of statistics, and they are posted here all the time. The FBI, the CDC, and some states police agencies specifically track crimes committed by CCW license holder in that state (I believe TX, and maybe FL do, or at least did at some point in the recent past).Also, professional researchers have done studies on various gun issues (maybe not the specific one at hand here), so saying "no one has any facts about guns" is mind numbingly false, when gun crime, injury, and death statistics are available from the CDC and FBI. So there's at least 2 credible groups that DO have "facts about guns".

You made the statement that states with training are safer, and have been asked to provide ANY evidence. Thats how this type of thing works, the burden of proof is on you. You have failed to provide ANYTHING but you conjecture. Also, if states with no training were even slightly more inclined to have more issues than states that do, don't you think the Brady Campaign would be ALL over it, especially since the "grade" the states, and training is one of the factors they use to grade them?

 

[BrianB]

It's the ND's that scare me. Happens enough with trained folks. We read about them here rather often!

Not sure I want any careless law abiding moron carrying at all.

Does a class or training minimize that? If I does, then great. If not, then allow me to buy kevlar.

 

[jrfoxx]

If not, then allow me to buy kevlar.

Unless IL has a law against it, then you can. Its for sale all over the net, including Ebay even, and it's 100% by federal law, and in all but maybe a couple states.Sadly, you could require daily, 8 hr traing for life, and ND's would still happen. People screw up, its human nature, and will never go away, no matter what. Look at all the LEO and military peole, who have more formal training than 99% of us, and they still have ND's fairly often too. Sadly, its unavoidable. its going to happen, just like nothing will ever stop criminals from getting guns, or committing crimes.

 

[pyle]

I can see both sides of this with regard to RKBA and restricting with a license. What worries me are how stupd some folks are. I see people who shouldn't have kids, shouldn't be driving a car, etc. .....

 

[the foot]

Carry privileges should not be subject to laws other than those laws that strip felons of their weapons. I always renew my concealed carry license in the interest of being a law-abiding citizen, but it is not necessary to do that in order to be a true American. If I should be refused a carry license by the state I would carry anyway. Because I have that right from the Bill of Rights.

 

[jakemccoy]

CCW license is a feel good measure for the "I don't want negligent discharges" people. How do you stop the criminals from carrying? You can't. They have less safety training and, worse, don't care. So, great, your squeamishness will help create an environment where only criminals and cops have guns. At exactly the wrong time, the criminals will get to you first.

 

[geekWithA.45]

*Strictly* speaking, it is an Infringement of our RKBA.

Axiomatically, the onus is on the State to prove some compelling reason why a given citizen should be stripped of the right of being publicly armed, rather than the current practice, which is the citizen proving his worthiness to the state.

That being said, few people outside of the liberty oriented set see anything in those terms anymore, most people's model is inverted; their belief is that priviliges and rights are bestowed by a benevolent state, (and gee, aren't we lucky, being Americans, having the most benevolent state around!) rather than being the inherent birth right of free beings.

For people who come from that point of view, the carry permit *is* a very important part of the general public acceptance of RKBA. People who are on the fence or who might otherwise object are silenced with the presentation of the fact that, "well, at least they (the gun carriers) are background checked, licensed, and trained."

 

[BrianB]

So, great, your squeamishness will help create an environment where only criminals and cops have guns. At exactly the wrong time, the criminals will get to you first.

Easy, there. Don't get me wrong. I think EVERYBODY (law-abiding) should carry, and they should also carry the weight of the responsibility that goes with it.

I don't mind getting on the road with folks who have had SOME level of education about the rules of the road, and I don't mind asking my neophyte neighbor to learn which end of the barrel is the dangerous end.

In the end, the fewer accidents, the better for all of us. The anti's are just itching to make some careless dope into an example...so those of us who are responsible pay the price and lose ground on RKBA.

From my perspective, make sure everybody who carries is well trained enough that the anti's don't get as much ammo against RKBA. Then, like now, we have a mountain of GOOD evidence that carrying is no more dangerous than riding a bicycle. This battle is a marathon and we can't expect the idealistic perfect world to materialize in any short time frames.

 

[ZombieHunter]

I voted yes with the following stipulations and reasons:

Licensing shouldn't be expensive. I've read some tales on here how it can push north of $100 a year, I think that's classist, racist, unconstitutional and insulting.

Licensing ensures that a minimum standard has been set and met. We may all greatly exceed that minimum but averages don't matter for jack. If someone wants to CCW/OC then good for them, but demonstrate an understanding of safe gun practices, shooting skills and legal use of the tool.

That's why I say yes. In VT and AL anyone who owns a gun can drop it in their pocket, that's cool, you've demonstrated that you meet the requirements to own a gun. To me that's different than carrying it around all day everyday.

 

[ar10]

I've been carrying since Ohio law allowed it in 2004. I also think that carrying a concealed weapon is just like the driver license its a privilege not a right. If you drive drunk and get convicted you loose the privilege, If you're caught a number of times you loose it permently. A person who wants to carry a CCW has to have at least some training before they can get a CHL, I been in enough classes to see the value of it. And some individuals shouldn't even have a gun in the house let alone be carrying one. I am not referring to open carry because it's legal in Ohio as in most other states.

It was mentioned that "kids" on street and gang bangers don't have training for their illegal guns. Not according to a study by FBI about six months ago. (I'll try to dig it up). They stated kids, mainly street gang member are better trained than the LEO's that are sent out to arrest them. They have more "on-the-job-experience."

I think what a lot of people don't realize or understand, and need to, is if they are put into a position to draw a gun and shoot someone they had better know how to shoot what they're aiming at then be prepared to defend themselves in criminal and civil court. If they can't do that then don't carry one or buy one because the BG wil take it away from them.