someguy2800
Member
My least favorite safety is actually the 3 position mauser. It’s just always awkward to actuate for me.
What are/ were your LEAST favorite milsurps and why?
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Nature Boy
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Combloc rifles.
I’ve never had a desire to own any of them
I’ve never had a desire to own any of them
theotherwaldo
Member
I guess that I'm a heretic.
I like all of the milsurps, including the ones that challenge me to wring their best out of them.
I love finding out more about their histories and their quirks.
I enjoy repairing and preserving them.
I enjoy learning to properly reload for them.
Why, I even enjoy shooting most of them!
I like all of the milsurps, including the ones that challenge me to wring their best out of them.
I love finding out more about their histories and their quirks.
I enjoy repairing and preserving them.
I enjoy learning to properly reload for them.
Why, I even enjoy shooting most of them!
Very true, I would put the carcano on par with any other LIKE condition surplus rifle out there....the key here is like condition.
You are correct on the ammo....Hornady is the only one that makes boolits of the correct profile...and they really do bring the rifle to life.
What I find amazing are comments like no adjustable sights coming from people that clearly have zero clue as to the real history on a given item. There are very valid reasons for not putting stupid garbage on a battle rifle like say a buffington sight. It is also amazing seeing how people comment on the rough or clunkyness of a given item when likely that specific item has been rode hard and put away wet. "Good" examples of some of these guns are pretty hard to find.....same goes for early japanese rifles....don't judge the entire line on one mix mash.
Also comments like you need channel locks to work the safety....as well as others....makes me wonder just what kind of shape those posters gunz are in.....and again are they making their comments from a very narrow sample size...or perhaps no sample size just to chime in and feel part of the group.
Surplus guns are just that surplus.....you really have zero control on how the decades or centuries have done to them....one thing can be said about MOST....they are not intended to be target or sporting arms...they are made to hit a human sized target at a given distance.
True because you don't need some idiot messing with the sights.....half the soldiers did not understand it anyway....they will mess it up.
So unless the rifle gets damaged you are not going to need to mess with the sights anyway to hit the human sized target at under 300 yards.
So much clueless in this thread it is making me sick.
They are very nice and very well made.....also said to be the strongest mauser action out there. The guy you quoted must hate the mauser action.
This.....
I can get well I don't like X country rifles.....just don't care for them. OK.
I have a carcano that I will stack up against any military rifle of the same time frame....it might not win but the distance it would lose buy would still equal a dead enemy combatant....and that is the point of EVERY rifle.
Was Carcano a good WWII system....well not the best with the clip system....just like garand's clip system was not the best, SVT's had a far better system....those commie bastages....and before you jump to defend the Garand, think about that box magazine....it really never did catch on now did it.
But the point is there was a reason for the clips on the garand....and it was a good reason....and this is the point I am trying to make.....every thing brought up here....I have yet to see the usual comment on french rifles...no safety...brought up and how stupid that is.....I guess I can thank one youtube guy for finally drilling that "why" into the unwashed masses....perhaps he needs to make a few more videos on sights.
Off the top of my head I can think of nothing that was bad......sure some things are better then others, but BAD
entropy
Member
Steyr/Mannlicher, Arisaka, Carcano, FR8, and Ljungmann/Hakim would top my list. Guns I would not shoot but find interestingly attractive in a steampunk way are Vitali/Vetterli, Beaumount, Chassepot, Gras, and Lebel. Though many disparage the Mosin Nagant, I came to appreciate it's rugged simplicity; this is a gun that will function in Siberia, or on Hoth, for that matter.
ApacheCoTodd
member
Yup - for a time it was THE premier surplus to build magnum rifles out of. One of the Japanese rifles - regardless their legacy, deserved or otherwise - was also highly regarded for this.
Todd.
The Arisakas are not my favorite milsurp but I would hesitate to put them at the worst. To me, they are an interesting Mauser variant with the strengths and virtues of that system with a unique Japanese twist on bolt design. A few of their addons for the T99 are simply silly like the monopod and the aircraft sights.
The Arisaka T38 (which is mainly duplicated by the T99) is a interesting design where the Japanese took the Mauser system and added their own twists to it. They could have made Mauser copies, after all the later Siamese Mausers were made by Japan and with a rimmed cartridge to boot. But, the Japanese went their own way with the bolt design and it was interesting enough that the French MAS 36 has a striking resemblance which I wonder about.
For gas events, the solid bolt plug on both is a plus versus the Mauser, Krag, etc. In addition, to combined safety/bolt plug and the hollow firing pin/cocking piece reduces the need to fit as many parts as the Mauser. Often to adjust a Mauser firing system, you have the bolt sleeve, the safety, the firing pin, the cocking piece, and the sear. Each have to work with each other and it can be a pain to fit new parts to the design. The Arisaka has the safety/bolt plug, sear, and the cocking piece/firing pin to fit. Speaking from experience, it is easier to correct an Arisaka problem than a Mauser in the firing system. In addition, the rifle design is overbuilt and exceptionally strong, the plum shaped bolt handle can be a bit easier to manipulate than the standard bolt knob used in western designs with stiffened fingers or gloves, and the 6.5x50 is a light recoiling round that is good enough within 300 yds.
The T99 early on had chromed bores which were superior in jungle fighting and the 7.7 Arisaka is almost identical in cartridge performance as the .303 British except being rimless. The Japanese metallurgy is quite good compared with some Western nations, cough, Spain for example, and with matching or fitted bolts, receivers, and mag parts, can feed pretty well. One issue with the 6.5x50 Japanese is that it is a semi-rimmed cartridge which requires paying attention when loading into the magazine or feeding issues can result. An interesting rifle as some has said is the Carcano-Arisaka hybrid. Unfortunately, I have only seen pictures of such and I have no opinion on how it works because I have not examined one.
One of the issues with old milsurps is that you more or less often have to diagnose problems. In feeding, one has to tailor their loads to the firearm rather than tailor the firearm by alterations to preferred loads. The old saying is always alter the cheapest part--in this case, the ammunition--brass and bullets for it before a person messes with the mechanical parts of the rifle. But, like most Mausers, one generally has to tweak either the feeding system if using a different bullet profile/cartridge, often replace tired mag springs, and sometimes adjust the follower, to get it to feed correctly. Some have had their feeding ramps or receiver lips messed with and those can be a challenge to get to feed correctly unless you know what the previous owners were doing with it. There is a reason that rifles that are unaltered bring more even in worn condition.
For the poster that had issues with the Japanese that was rechambered to .257 Roberts, that is part of the accuracy problem. Assuming that it was not rebarrelled or the chamber reamer was used improperly, the rifle is probably the 6.5x257 wildcat (see http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cruffler/Pages/6_5x257_roberts.htm) which is NOT the same as the 6.5 x 57 Mauser used in Euro lands. There is quite a bit about tuning and reloading for this round if you want to look around for it on the interwebz and the general gist is that it requires tuned reloading to get its best and the accuracy of course will be shoddy with factory Roberts ammo with a .257 bullet skidding down the bore. @LoonWulf may have one of these conversions and be able to speak about reloading for them.
bassjam
Member
I've never been tempted to own any non-US milsurp gun. Mostly because, buy the time I got into guns the only cheap milsurps were in what I'd consider uncommon calibers. And SKS's never really did it for me. And now, you can get a quality bolt action fro dirt cheap and "owning a piece of history" from Italy or Russia or Japan doesn't interest me either. And US surplus guns are just so darned expensive now. M1 Garand's seem to still be somewhat reasonable when you can get them from CMP, but that's about it.
I agree on the 99 "silly" swiss army stuff on their rifles.....but again we have to fall back and think along the lines of those at the time.....or at least try to figure out just why they put that stuff on there.....they had to feel the extra time and material was worth it or else they would not do it.
The AA sights....pretty pointless if you are shooting at a 400+ mph corsair screaming across you....but how about a P12 buzzing along at a tick over 100....hmm you might actually hit that. The mono pod...same deal masses of chinese coming at you on an open plane in the middle of china....yea go prone, guess it will work....or in a trench.....but later when you could use that hard to find metal....yea better stuff to use it on.
Those goof ball things hanging on the gun make it interesting
The AA sights....pretty pointless if you are shooting at a 400+ mph corsair screaming across you....but how about a P12 buzzing along at a tick over 100....hmm you might actually hit that. The mono pod...same deal masses of chinese coming at you on an open plane in the middle of china....yea go prone, guess it will work....or in a trench.....but later when you could use that hard to find metal....yea better stuff to use it on.
Those goof ball things hanging on the gun make it interesting
I find the M44 to be a great beater for pushing wild boar thru the brush. Not so hot when there are a few doizen of them, tho. Bit a great brush gun all the same.
Varminterror
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I have a serious disdain for Mosin Nagant’s. I was in the younger generation starting to build custom rifles when the last of the Mosin’s sold for dirt cheap, and I bought into the old-world hype about how great of rifles they were, and how easy it was to sporterize them into high performance rifles. That hype died for a while, but then resurfaced with the advent of the “Prepper boom.” For the $75 they used to cost, they were a good rifle, but sporterizing and customizing on the Mosin action even then was a waste of money and time. Today, better factory actions are available for lower prices than Mosins, and the silliness of sporterizing and customizing has become even worse.
So yeah, if I never saw a Facebook thread or forum post about some budget build someone is planning on a Mosin, or about some restocked Mosin they use to shoot car doors at 500 yards, I’d be happy.
So yeah, if I never saw a Facebook thread or forum post about some budget build someone is planning on a Mosin, or about some restocked Mosin they use to shoot car doors at 500 yards, I’d be happy.
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Then go puke somewhere else.
The question was not "Please provide a brief synopsis of the relative attributional value of various technical features found on 20th Century military small arms and the usage of such by the average conscript soldier in infantry operations."
It was "Which is YOUR least favorite and why?"
The question was subjective. I could have a room full of the finest bespoke Safari rifles and ask you which is YOUR least favorite. And I wouldnt judge you for your reasoning.
Rather than berate the other forum members for their "clueless," how about providing constructive examples of why you find those features necessary, useful, or desirable for the collector/ shooter in 2020.
Or simply keep your opinions to yourself if you cant be positive or respectful.
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Same here.
I don't have any experience with the .257 conversions on the 6.5japs, all of mine have been t99s and cartridges being .284 based.
I'll say this tho, the T99 and T38s are he'll for stout. I blew primers clean out of new cases on my 6-284 t99 on the first firing, and it didn't show any adverse effects, didn't even have a difficult bolt lift.
I did research on the t-38 .257 conversions, and it was pretty normal for folks to just run a standard .257 into the chamber and go for broke. One guy I talked to ran .264s thru the regular .257 chamber with no issue, but I wouldn't expect to get away with it.
The .257 chambered gun I was looking at (but didn't buy) had the stock barrel and would probably have been in that situation, so I passed.
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If you get a Chilean Mauser, you want the Steyr made 1912 short rifle model if you want to fire 7.62 Nato--if I remember the details correctly, the Chileans used Springfield 03a3 two groove barrels for these 7.62 conversions and they even reprofiled the barrels to the mauser step format. The outside barrel work is rough as a cob but practically new inside as they simply reset the chamber for the shorter 7.62 cartridge.
The older 1895 actions are not really appropriate for conversions and the Chileans used a chamber sleeve for the conversion. The castboolit link shows why that is not such a good idea. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-Modelo-Chileno-1895-7-62x51-Nato-conversions. These are lighter than the tank like m1917 actions by far and the 1895 more closely resembles the 94&96 Swede and the 93 Spanish actions as a small ring action. The 1912 is a large ring 98 Mauser action which is a bit stronger but still not as massive as the m1917 or P14 receivers. The 1912 Steyr and the 1909 Argentinian m98 actions are some of the best pre WWI actions made but the later 1930's era German and the Czech Brno made receivers exhibit more consistent metallurgy and heat treatment.
Very true....and if you want to base your decisions things that are not true....well that is up to you.
I had a real long history lesson in this spot...but even for me it was TLDNR....so here is the why.
Why those features are necessary, useful, or desirable to a collector in 2020......why do people still drive model T's? Why do they shoot cap and ball? Why do you see people with old muscle cars?
That is why....and sorry I had to explain that all to you.
Perhaps I should have used another word then clueless.....ignorant, not informed, has zero clue......something along those lines.....does that make you FEEL better?.....sorry for the word clueless....it was short and it fit.
Some comments in this thread put a negative on a given item or feature on the item....it was my intent to say that is not a negative mark but the end of a long process and at the time it was installed on a given item it was put there for good reasons. If people choose to put down an item based on pure ignorance I see that as a teaching opportunity.....sorry if my method is more like your old uncle telling you that you are stupid to use the grinder without gloves.
I took a few minutes to upload some photos....I am still new at that took me a few minutes.
As this usually goes back to the Mosin's I stuck up a photo of the last one I got.....it hits a few marks here in the sight department....why does someone in 2020 want a rifle marked out in arshins.....because (I) see it as cool....it is interesting to (ME)....and a few other people as well. Why does someone want a Chilean mauser in some not common flavor....because I find them interesting.....
I think it comes down to things like SAS.....personally I find it a bit silly, but that is just me....I don't want to dress up....that does not me I think YOU are silly for playing that game....it is just not for me....I do not intend any disrespect it is just the way I talk. But why do people play SAS....they want to "experience" that old west feel....this is why people want these old guns marked out in old out of use measurements on their sights....it is the way they are.....they want to have that "feel" or as close to that feel as you can get dressing up as a cowboy, or as a WWI French soldier....you want to "live" the history....that means a great deal to some people.....and they want to go that deep. Some are happy shooting the gun....say a trap door.....and that is good enough.....some want that trap door and what to shoot BP.....for others that is just too much work, and think it is silly when you can have safe smokeless ammo for it....but for those others the gun was in smokey powder and that is the way they want to shoot it.....nothing wrong with that.
Anyhoo....hope that ramble cleared up my position....and if I can figure out how here are the pics....if I can't get them they are in the general section.
As this usually goes back to the Mosin's I stuck up a photo of the last one I got.....it hits a few marks here in the sight department....why does someone in 2020 want a rifle marked out in arshins.....because (I) see it as cool....it is interesting to (ME)....and a few other people as well. Why does someone want a Chilean mauser in some not common flavor....because I find them interesting.....
I think it comes down to things like SAS.....personally I find it a bit silly, but that is just me....I don't want to dress up....that does not me I think YOU are silly for playing that game....it is just not for me....I do not intend any disrespect it is just the way I talk. But why do people play SAS....they want to "experience" that old west feel....this is why people want these old guns marked out in old out of use measurements on their sights....it is the way they are.....they want to have that "feel" or as close to that feel as you can get dressing up as a cowboy, or as a WWI French soldier....you want to "live" the history....that means a great deal to some people.....and they want to go that deep. Some are happy shooting the gun....say a trap door.....and that is good enough.....some want that trap door and what to shoot BP.....for others that is just too much work, and think it is silly when you can have safe smokeless ammo for it....but for those others the gun was in smokey powder and that is the way they want to shoot it.....nothing wrong with that.
Anyhoo....hope that ramble cleared up my position....and if I can figure out how here are the pics....if I can't get them they are in the general section.
Nice pix.
ApacheCoTodd
member
Guidelines for the thread, to be sure.
I mean, hell's bells - if someone does not agree with me that my Carcano is not MY least favorite for the reasons that I state... That's OK, they have the right to be wrong about me.
Too, look at all of the misguided fools who think a Mosin is the cat's pajamas!
For my part, the greatest pleasure I am getting out of this thread is the input from fellas who like something that I specifically dislike - either through my own experience or by reputation.
I am particularly fascinated by displeasure with certain Mausers. I thought once you bought one you were taught the secret hand-shake, given a gallon of the koolaide and sworn to silence as to any potential displeasure.
Todd.
ApacheCoTodd
member
That's got to be one of the prettiest cartouches I've ever seen. Amazing to get that detail across the grain of a rifle stock.
And, to have survived for so long so clearly. Regardless being semi-double-struck.
Todd.
Deus Machina
Member
I haven't had any really bad ones, but in my case it was a Carcano.
Plagued with the usual Italian method of a bunch of the best ideas bound with the worst implementation.
Plagued with the usual Italian method of a bunch of the best ideas bound with the worst implementation.
MosinT53Hunter
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- Dec 15, 2016
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Well, if you don't mind a project, Gunbroker has a bunch of T53 barreled actions with bolts, and some even have the bayonets on them, for $180.
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