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When do you draw?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by AKElroy, Feb 15, 2009.

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  1. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    Scenario:

    Part 1---Dark, empty parking lot. Two 17 year old bangers demand your wallet. They are not brandishing weapons, but they are intimidating, street tough kids and you do not know if they are armed or not. You have $300 in the wallet, pictures of the kids, credit cards & your CHL. Under your jacket you have a C&L 1911 in an open top high ride. Do you draw?

    Part 2---You draw, but they still demand the wallet, taunting that you would not shoot them over a wallet. Do you give them the wallet & see if they retreat, or do you hold your ground and fire to protect your property?
     
  2. DAVIDSDIVAD

    DAVIDSDIVAD member

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    I toss them a cartridge from one of my back up magazines while making my exit with the gun still aimed at them. (joking)


    Honestly, two guys that get carried away can kill you fast.
    Heck, one guy can kill you fast with just hands and feet.
    That is a pretty gray situation.

    I'd try my best to get away.
     
  3. codybrown

    codybrown Member

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    Kind of tough to say without being in the position. If I was in fear for my life, I would act accordingly. On the other hand, $300 and credit cards can be replaced, but two human life's cannot.
     
  4. viperstarbuck

    viperstarbuck Member

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    To defend yourself in court, you must prove you reasonably believed that they could kill you or do you serious physical harm. aka

    Ability means that the other person has the power to kill or to cripple you.

    Opportunity means that the circumstances are such that the other person would be able to use his ability against you.

    Jeopardy means that the other person's actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you or cripple you.

    Ability= Two on one=present
    Opportunity= They are presumably near you.=Present
    Jeapardy= They stated their intent to take your wallet.=Present

    Give an extra warning if you have time, if they don't back off immediately, engage them.

    IMO
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009
  5. VegasGeorge

    VegasGeorge Member

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    I'm a senior. I'm in no condition to get into a street fight, and I have no intention of giving up my wallet to a couple of young thugs. I would draw to the ready. Shout "Stop or I'll shoot!" And, then shoot if they came closer to me. If they didn't move toward me, I'd back off slowly, keeping the gun at the ready until I was no longer in any danger.
     
  6. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    Not a senior, but I'm parroting George here, almost word for word.

    Back away--if they follow, move faster. Still following, they really do mean you harm--fire.
     
  7. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    To be complete, a person may use deadly force in self-defense if the person is (1) without fault, (2) confronted with unlawful force, and (3) threatened with death or great bodily harm.

    Also, you technically don't have to prove self-defense in court. The prosecution has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fails to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, then you walk. A showing of legal self-defense may be used to provide reasonable doubt.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  8. Guitargod1985

    Guitargod1985 Member

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    Not necessarily.

    In Florida, for instance, deadly force is legally warranted in a number of circumstances.

    Use of deadly force is authorized when
    So, to sum it all up: In Florida, robbery is considered a forcible felony, and if you try it on a CWL holder, I hope you are ready to meet your maker.

    Even though this would probably be ruled a "good shoot," I'm not sure it would sit right with me that I had fired a gun at two unarmed people over a wallet. Granted, they made the choice to place themselves in that situation by breaking the law and attempting to exploit me, but I would do my best to escape without shots fired, while also keeping what property rightfully belongs to me. This probably means drawing but not firing unless they took further threatening actions.

    Excellent point, especially since they appear not to be armed. That would be a crappy situation to have to explain, lawyer or no lawyer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  9. Bailey Guns

    Bailey Guns Member

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    Draw and repeatedly and loudly demand they leave me alone as I attempt to retreat and/or look for cover.

    If they continue to approach, at some point when I felt it was too close, I'm going to fire on whichever one was the most threatening. Also, their actions would be considered attempted robbery in this state which is a violent felony.

    I think it would be pretty easy for my attorney to articulate the danger given the fact a gun was pointed at them and they continued to approach and verbally threaten me while attempting to rob me. Not only that, but in Colorado, pretty much anything can be a considered a deadly weapon...including fists, feet or other parts of the body. I would not consider them unarmed just because I didn't see a "weapon" in their hands.
     
  10. viperstarbuck

    viperstarbuck Member

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    I feel it covers all my bases, and besides it was taught to me in a college course that covers both civilian and leo use of force, AND it was the elements by witch i personally saw a "self defense" case be judged by. in addition to seconhand info by massad ayoob, www.handgunlaw.us, and the Armed Citizens legal network. However, i am NOT a lawyer, and the above is but an element of being in "fear of your life". I should have left that first sentence out i agree, but none of this is legal advice for you, only how i personally judge a life threatening situation. But it has been proven both legitamate and succesful to me over and over. and i agree that the robbery aspect changes it. I should have chose my wording a bit better! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  11. mrsig

    mrsig Member

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    I know that one in the air would be a bad thing because one does not know where it will land. What about one in the ground in front of them? They will take some gravel and part of the bullet. This is not ideal, but some pain should back them off.

    - Sig
     
  12. novaDAK

    novaDAK Member

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    No warning shots for me. Dumb idea IMO. It doesn't matter what direction you fire the gun, in court the fact remains you discharged your firearm and therefore used lethal force. If you use lethal force, USE IT effectively.
     
  13. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    You'd have to be talking about shooting straight up in the air. I don't know if what you said is true, but I'll take your word for it for the sake of argument...

    If you shot at say a 30 degree angle in the air, that bullet is stilling going to have substantial horizontal velocity to kill someone when the bullet comes back to the ground. Wow, be careful if you're going to shooting rounds off in the air.
     
  14. ThrottleJockey

    ThrottleJockey member

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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  15. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

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    This is a personal decision.

    Personally, if I'm in fear for my life or the life of another I feel the duty to protect then I'll draw. If I'm drawing I'm firing.

    In your scenario, they get my wallet. I don't carry concealed to protect my wallet and the money in it.

    YMMV
     
  16. Doggy Daddy

    Doggy Daddy Member

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    Yes, but if they overpower you, then they'll be armed... with your weapon. It's not just your wallet you're keeping from them.
     
  17. Guitargod1985

    Guitargod1985 Member

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    Very true. Which is why I said:

    Or at least, I thought I said that. What I really said was:
    I'm not really sure how that made any sense to me when I typed it. :eek: Cerebral flatulence, perhaps?
     
  18. Doggy Daddy

    Doggy Daddy Member

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    Subdural methane buildup? Yep, BTDT. :D
     
  19. Bailey Guns

    Bailey Guns Member

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    If someone threatens use of force against you in order to get your wallet from your person, you're not protecting your wallet. This is a crime against a person, not a crime against property. It's called robbery.

    If you're wallet is laying down on a counter or table and someone steals it, that's a property crime and would not generally warrant a deadly force response.

    Big diff.
     
  20. Bailey Guns

    Bailey Guns Member

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    :) That's why, in a situation like this, I'd have my lawyer do my talking. Cause I'd say something like that...or worse.
     
  21. Leanwolf

    Leanwolf Member

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    Vegas George nailed it... along with several others.

    And the O.P. said, "... you don't know if they're armed or not."

    I know for a fact just how fast a bad guy can pull out an unseen weapon and use it. Two guys demanding my wallet... or else??

    Huh uh, not this child.

    Besides if you pull that gun and they still don't back off or run, then advance, still demanding your wallet, they've alreaady figured you for a bluffer.

    Never try to run a bluff with a firearm.

    My take on it.

    L.W.
     
  22. expvideo

    expvideo Member

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    Part 1: Yes, assuming retreat wasn't an option, I would draw and under WA law, I would be justified in doing so.

    Part 2: You are damn right I shoot! And I don't hesitate and wait for them to take my gun or change the situation. I don't think twice about it, and I don't doubt it, or I'm dead. I don't care what kind of consequences there are, I will take them over being dead. And for the record, under WA state law, I would be completely justified in shooting because they are committing a felony against me.
     
  23. EHL

    EHL Member

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    Yes, I would draw. And yes, I would shoot. Two punks not retreating at the sight of a gun is trouble. Either they're doped up on something or they're intent on causing you harm for your wallet or for the shear enjoyment/thrill. It's me or them. Wouldn't think twice about it, wouldn't lose any sleep either.
     
  24. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Member

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    The difference between the weapon remaining yours is who fires it first.

    Tis better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
     
  25. Todd A

    Todd A Member

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    Great,thoughtfull, advice :rolleyes:. That would be a perfect defense of the use of lethal force in court.:scrutiny:

    So...just what are you going to do when twelve people think that you killed two people without justification?

    "I mean really..those two youths lived horrible neglected lives. Society failed them,our schools failed them, and their family failed them.They needed our nurturing, a helpfull hand, and our pity...not bullets."

    You don't get to take your gun with you to prison. And I am positive that every day behind those walls you will be exposed to things far worse than death.

    Hopefully the thought "At least I am alive" will keep you going for the next 15 years or so while you socialize with your new "friends".


    Do you really think that? Is that the yardstick you use to decide when to use lethal force?
     
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