When do you draw?

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AKElroy

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Scenario:

Part 1---Dark, empty parking lot. Two 17 year old bangers demand your wallet. They are not brandishing weapons, but they are intimidating, street tough kids and you do not know if they are armed or not. You have $300 in the wallet, pictures of the kids, credit cards & your CHL. Under your jacket you have a C&L 1911 in an open top high ride. Do you draw?

Part 2---You draw, but they still demand the wallet, taunting that you would not shoot them over a wallet. Do you give them the wallet & see if they retreat, or do you hold your ground and fire to protect your property?
 
I toss them a cartridge from one of my back up magazines while making my exit with the gun still aimed at them. (joking)


Honestly, two guys that get carried away can kill you fast.
Heck, one guy can kill you fast with just hands and feet.
That is a pretty gray situation.

I'd try my best to get away.
 
Kind of tough to say without being in the position. If I was in fear for my life, I would act accordingly. On the other hand, $300 and credit cards can be replaced, but two human life's cannot.
 
To defend yourself in court, you must prove you reasonably believed that they could kill you or do you serious physical harm. aka

Ability means that the other person has the power to kill or to cripple you.

Opportunity means that the circumstances are such that the other person would be able to use his ability against you.

Jeopardy means that the other person's actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you or cripple you.

Ability= Two on one=present
Opportunity= They are presumably near you.=Present
Jeapardy= They stated their intent to take your wallet.=Present

Give an extra warning if you have time, if they don't back off immediately, engage them.

IMO
 
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I'm a senior. I'm in no condition to get into a street fight, and I have no intention of giving up my wallet to a couple of young thugs. I would draw to the ready. Shout "Stop or I'll shoot!" And, then shoot if they came closer to me. If they didn't move toward me, I'd back off slowly, keeping the gun at the ready until I was no longer in any danger.
 
Not a senior, but I'm parroting George here, almost word for word.

Back away--if they follow, move faster. Still following, they really do mean you harm--fire.
 
To defend yourself in court, you must prove you reasonably believed that they could kill you or do you serious physical harm.
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To be complete, a person may use deadly force in self-defense if the person is (1) without fault, (2) confronted with unlawful force, and (3) threatened with death or great bodily harm.

Also, you technically don't have to prove self-defense in court. The prosecution has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fails to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, then you walk. A showing of legal self-defense may be used to provide reasonable doubt.
 
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To defend yourself in court, you must prove you reasonably believed that they could kill you or do you serious physical harm. aka
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Not necessarily.

In Florida, for instance, deadly force is legally warranted in a number of circumstances.

Use of deadly force is authorized when
(1) [the victim] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony...
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776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
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812.13 Robbery.--

(1) "Robbery" means the taking of money or other property which may be the subject of larceny from the person or custody of another, with intent to either permanently or temporarily deprive the person or the owner of the money or other property, when in the course of the taking there is the use of force, violence, assault, or putting in fear.
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So, to sum it all up: In Florida, robbery is considered a forcible felony, and if you try it on a CWL holder, I hope you are ready to meet your maker.

Even though this would probably be ruled a "good shoot," I'm not sure it would sit right with me that I had fired a gun at two unarmed people over a wallet. Granted, they made the choice to place themselves in that situation by breaking the law and attempting to exploit me, but I would do my best to escape without shots fired, while also keeping what property rightfully belongs to me. This probably means drawing but not firing unless they took further threatening actions.

do everything possible to avoid killing the punks
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Excellent point, especially since they appear not to be armed. That would be a crappy situation to have to explain, lawyer or no lawyer.
 
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Draw and repeatedly and loudly demand they leave me alone as I attempt to retreat and/or look for cover.

If they continue to approach, at some point when I felt it was too close, I'm going to fire on whichever one was the most threatening. Also, their actions would be considered attempted robbery in this state which is a violent felony.

I think it would be pretty easy for my attorney to articulate the danger given the fact a gun was pointed at them and they continued to approach and verbally threaten me while attempting to rob me. Not only that, but in Colorado, pretty much anything can be a considered a deadly weapon...including fists, feet or other parts of the body. I would not consider them unarmed just because I didn't see a "weapon" in their hands.
 
I feel it covers all my bases, and besides it was taught to me in a college course that covers both civilian and leo use of force, AND it was the elements by witch i personally saw a "self defense" case be judged by. in addition to seconhand info by massad ayoob, www.handgunlaw.us, and the Armed Citizens legal network. However, i am NOT a lawyer, and the above is but an element of being in "fear of your life". I should have left that first sentence out i agree, but none of this is legal advice for you, only how i personally judge a life threatening situation. But it has been proven both legitamate and succesful to me over and over. and i agree that the robbery aspect changes it. I should have chose my wording a bit better! :)
 
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I know that one in the air would be a bad thing because one does not know where it will land. What about one in the ground in front of them? They will take some gravel and part of the bullet. This is not ideal, but some pain should back them off.

- Sig
 
No warning shots for me. Dumb idea IMO. It doesn't matter what direction you fire the gun, in court the fact remains you discharged your firearm and therefore used lethal force. If you use lethal force, USE IT effectively.
 
I still say in the air. It is proven that no matter where it lands, it will not cause serious harm. When it reaches its highest point(much lower than you'd expect) and then begins to fall, consider it "stopped". When falling(from a lower distance than you think) it will pick up speed, but not enough to harm anyone. All things fall at the same speed regardless of weight....the only factors changing the velocity are aerodynamic.
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You'd have to be talking about shooting straight up in the air. I don't know if what you said is true, but I'll take your word for it for the sake of argument...

If you shot at say a 30 degree angle in the air, that bullet is stilling going to have substantial horizontal velocity to kill someone when the bullet comes back to the ground. Wow, be careful if you're going to shooting rounds off in the air.
 
This is a personal decision.

Personally, if I'm in fear for my life or the life of another I feel the duty to protect then I'll draw. If I'm drawing I'm firing.

In your scenario, they get my wallet. I don't carry concealed to protect my wallet and the money in it.

YMMV
 
Yes, but if they overpower you, then they'll be armed... with your weapon. It's not just your wallet you're keeping from them.
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Very true. Which is why I said:

This probably means drawing but not firing unless they took further threatening actions.
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Or at least, I thought I said that. What I really said was:
This probably means drawing but not firing unless they made took further threatening.
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I'm not really sure how that made any sense to me when I typed it. :eek: Cerebral flatulence, perhaps?
 
In your scenario, they get my wallet. I don't carry concealed to protect my wallet and the money in it.
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If someone threatens use of force against you in order to get your wallet from your person, you're not protecting your wallet. This is a crime against a person, not a crime against property. It's called robbery.

If you're wallet is laying down on a counter or table and someone steals it, that's a property crime and would not generally warrant a deadly force response.

Big diff.
 
This probably means drawing but not firing unless they made took further threatening.
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:) That's why, in a situation like this, I'd have my lawyer do my talking. Cause I'd say something like that...or worse.
 
VEGAS GEORGE - "I'm a senior. I'm in no condition to get into a street fight, and I have no intention of giving up my wallet to a couple of young thugs. I would draw to the ready. Shout "Stop or I'll shoot!" And, then shoot if they came closer to me. If they didn't move toward me, I'd back off slowly, keeping the gun at the ready until I was no longer in any danger."
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Vegas George nailed it... along with several others.

And the O.P. said, "... you don't know if they're armed or not."

I know for a fact just how fast a bad guy can pull out an unseen weapon and use it. Two guys demanding my wallet... or else??

Huh uh, not this child.

Besides if you pull that gun and they still don't back off or run, then advance, still demanding your wallet, they've alreaady figured you for a bluffer.

Never try to run a bluff with a firearm.

My take on it.

L.W.
 
Scenario:

Part 1---Dark, empty parking lot. Two 17 year old bangers demand your wallet. They are not brandishing weapons, but they are intimidating, street tough kids and you do not know if they are armed or not. You have $300 in the wallet, pictures of the kids, credit cards & your CHL. Under your jacket you have a C&L 1911 in an open top high ride. Do you draw?

Part 2---You draw, but they still demand the wallet, taunting that you would not shoot them over a wallet. Do you give them the wallet & see if they retreat, or do you hold your ground and fire to protect your property?
Click to expand...
Part 1: Yes, assuming retreat wasn't an option, I would draw and under WA law, I would be justified in doing so.

Part 2: You are damn right I shoot! And I don't hesitate and wait for them to take my gun or change the situation. I don't think twice about it, and I don't doubt it, or I'm dead. I don't care what kind of consequences there are, I will take them over being dead. And for the record, under WA state law, I would be completely justified in shooting because they are committing a felony against me.
 
Yes, I would draw. And yes, I would shoot. Two punks not retreating at the sight of a gun is trouble. Either they're doped up on something or they're intent on causing you harm for your wallet or for the shear enjoyment/thrill. It's me or them. Wouldn't think twice about it, wouldn't lose any sleep either.
 
Tis better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
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Great,thoughtfull, advice :rolleyes:. That would be a perfect defense of the use of lethal force in court.:scrutiny:

So...just what are you going to do when twelve people think that you killed two people without justification?

"I mean really..those two youths lived horrible neglected lives. Society failed them,our schools failed them, and their family failed them.They needed our nurturing, a helpfull hand, and our pity...not bullets."

You don't get to take your gun with you to prison. And I am positive that every day behind those walls you will be exposed to things far worse than death.

Hopefully the thought "At least I am alive" will keep you going for the next 15 years or so while you socialize with your new "friends".


Do you really think that? Is that the yardstick you use to decide when to use lethal force?
 
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