Which Progressive Press is "best for me"?

[GW Staar]

Doggonit kansaSasquatch, I thought I was done. But I gotta fix some misperceptions somebody told you.

The things I didn't like about the RCBS, and the reasons why I ended up with a Hornady:
1. With the RCBS you have to mess with the dies more (or buy a separate die plate, same as with Dillon) if you only want to resize bottleneck brass, then tumble it, trim it, then run it through again to prime/powder/bullet. With the LNL its very quick to only put the sizing die in and leave the others out. It's especially nice if you like to resize all of your brass before storing it like I try to do.
Most of us deprime and size bottleneck cases in a single stage press (acquired in the days before we bought a progressive.) So we don't use #1 for rifle.....but if I did, yes I'd buy an extra die head for that....one to be used for every caliber like a single stage. But why?...when the Rockchuckers just sitting there doing nothing?

BTW, buying one Die Plate is similar in price to buying LnL bushings for dies that would fill it....or IOW 6 of one half dozen of the other.

2. No factory case feeder. I've read that some people have rigged up case feeders for the the Pro 2000 but there's no factory option for people who can't/don't want to fabricate their own.

Yes, that's true, I'm the one who built one to see if it could be done.....cost me $60. But before I did, I bought a Hornady bullet feeder, for pistol, and Gold Medal Seaters for rifle, and I can tell you I didn't miss the expensive case feeders. I think there are lots of Hornady Users (and Dillon 550 users) that don't mess with the case feeder expense, but nobody rails on THEM for it.

3. The press itself costs more than the Hornady and the RCBS bullet feeder is also more expensive than the Hornady. I'm sure the RCBS being cast iron is a good reason for that, but you're in Dillon 650 territory for the price of a Pro 2000 w/ auto indexing. The non- auto-indexing is ~$70 cheaper, but if you don't want auto indexing you might as well go 550 and save even more money.

Remember the Pro2k has five stations....I don't see any advantage to go back to four.

One thing you might want to check on is the difference in price between a Hornady AP (With casefeeder) and a Dillon 650 (with case feeder collator). Not much difference at all. The price advantage is if you don't opt for a case feeder. Keep in mind that a Dillon 650 has the case feeder standard....you buy the Collator for it separately, but the bottom end is standard.

4. The powder measure on a Pro 2000 is "stuck" in station 3 unless you want to remove it from the die plate between caliber changes.

The Uniflow isn't stuck anywhere. Just like the Hornady it can be used in station 2 with a powder-through expander for pistol loading. You only have to populate the die plate with the caliber specific powder die/expander. The Powder measure just drops on....yup...just like the Hornady.
5. I just like how quickly I can take a single die out if I'm having a problem with it, say my seating die is gummed up with boolit lube, and put it back in. No risk of pulling the die plate out and messing up setting on other dies, no messing with lock rings, just pull out the problem die.

Using a die plate all the dies are set and tight. No risk messing up any settings. No messing with bushings, just unscrew the problem die.

6. The Pro 2000 rotates counter-clockwise. IT JUST AIN'T RIGHT!!!

Now #6 is true....it's just not right being a black sheep. But it works great for the sweet APS primer system. I like how the cases go in and ammo comes out on the same side close to the user opposite the press handle....right hand gets to crank on with out interruptions.

 

[shoebox56]

Now #6 is true....it's just not right being a black sheep. But it works great for the sweet APS primer system. I like how the cases go in and ammo comes out on the same side close to the user opposite the press handle....right hand gets to crank on with out interruptions.

I would also claim that the other advantage to counterclockwise is you can see the case powder charge on the same side you're manually feeding new brass and bullet. That's assuming the powder measure is "stuck" in station 3, where it should be.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

D1. Why size/deprime your .223 plinking ammo on a single stage when you're going to have your progressive set up for that caliber anyways? Why have 2 die plates to run that one bottleneck cartridge if you're going send it through the progressive twice anyways? With the LNL you only have to buy enough bushings for the dies you're going to use. So my $4 bushing that I need for my sizing die is cheaper than you $16 die plate. As far as the seating and/or crimping dies go, if you have them in a second die plate my 2 $4 bushings (seating die and Lee FCD for .223) are cheaper than your $16 die plate.

2. I'm one of those Hornady users that hasn't bothered with the expense of the case feeder, but not for lack of want. When I have the spare cash they're not to be found, when I don't have the cash they're everywhere. Might make my own as there's some things I'd like to change about the Hornady design.

3. You're right, not much difference in price if you get a case feeder with a Hornady. But if you want to start out with a nice progressive and upgrade it with a case feeder down the road when you can save up for it (kinda what my situation was) the Hornady allows you to do that without the higher up front price of the 650. If you don't want a case feeder the Hornady saves money over either of its main competitors (Pro 2000 and 650).

4. I said "stuck." Sure it's possible to move it. Unthread it and thread it back onto a different die plate. Or like you said, have several caliber specific powder dies, but now you're adding cost, unless RCBS gives these to you. I've bought exactly one extra powder die for my press because I have a 2nd powder measure. One stays set up for rifle and one stays set up for pistol. If I'm switching from a pistol caliber to a rifle caliber it doesn't matter what station I put my powder measure in, it takes me about 5 seconds to remove one powder measure and put the other in place. I'm dialing in my charge while you're still unthreading your powder die (if you don't leave it "stuck"). Now, there's other variables to that, but if we each have 2 powder measures and 2 powder dies, its still going to be a quicker swap on the Hornady. It may not be a whole lot of time in the grand scheme of things, but that depends on how often someone is going to switch calibers.

5. I pull out one die with a simple 1/8th turn, pull straight up, flip my die over and clean it, place it back in the press (no messing with bushings or settings). You pull a couple pins, slide the die plate out, flip the whole thing over (Oh you didn't move your powder measure did you? Man what a mess that could make.), clean the die, slide the plate back in, and insert the pins. If you did move you powder measure to be on the die plate, you could surely unscrew that seater die but that's taking more time, even if its not too much extra. Me personally, I like the idea and practice of only removing that seater die. I'm human and humans make mistakes. If I drop that die on a hard concrete floor chances are I'd only damage the $4 LNL bushing, at worst the bushing and a $15 die. If you remove that whole die plate you could potentially damage a $30-55 die set (maybe more if you use "fancy" dies) and a $15-20 die plate if you drop it. But maybe that's just me over-thinking it. I just hate unscrewing dies.

I'm not knocking the Pro 2000 at all. I think it definitely has its pros but looking at it objectively I see some cons too. The LNL does too.....for starters it's Husker red, but I can understand why. If I had the means and knowledge I'd make my own press. I'd take some of the ideas from Hornady, RCBS, and Dillon.... maybe even Lee.

 

[LBEE]

Dillon 550B hands down,

 

[roc1]

Having owned a Hornady AP press for several years and Dillons presses as well. 2-550 1 Square Deal. My take is Hornady cheaper to change calibers .Dillon by far more dependable less problems. Hornady case feeder always a problem finally sold it tired of frustration Hornady had sent parts to fix it never run right poor feeding system into press. PTX won't work on lead bullets so ended up going back to expander die on lead pistol bullets. Hornady gets rid of spent primers better lock n load easy to change calibers and cheaper . CS good on both Dillon is better overall CS. Both good machines but if it comes to vote Dillon gets nod overall better less problems more loading time. Plus have lot of extras from Dillon and others sell aftermarket stuff for it.
Thanks good luck
Roc1

 

[JWH321]

+1 on the RCBS 2000. Although I don't have one, I have used one quite a bit. I would buy one in a heartbeat except that my wealth management executive (wife) says that I seem to be doing quite well with my Rock Chucker -- which I already own.

I have limited space for the same reason you have limited space (gee, I sure miss a full basement). But I probably have more space than I do disposable (firearm stuff) income.

 

[Walkalong]

If the RCBS seated bullets out front, I would probably own one.

 

[Edster12]

You could seat and crimp in station 5 on the Pro 2000 that would be the 9 o'clock position

 

[shoebox56]

D1. Why size/deprime your .223 plinking ammo on a single stage when you're going to have your progressive set up for that caliber anyways? Why have 2 die plates to run that one bottleneck cartridge if you're going send it through the progressive twice anyways?

Case preperation. Some of us like to clean out primer pockets. So running the Sizer/Deprimer on a Single Stage makes sense.

As for 2 die plates, I don't understand.

 

[Walkalong]

You could seat and crimp in station 5 on the Pro 2000 that would be the 9 o'clock position

Where you cannot see in the case, which is my reason for wanting the seating to be in front.

I tried the powder cop (Home made one) years ago, and I don't like it. I like to see each powder charge. To each their own.

 

[Edster12]

Right now I seat in position 4 which is about 11 o'clock I have no problem seeing inside the case. I am also looking at doing a double mirror set up so there is never an issue or a lazy moment.

 

[jmorris]

I'm amazed about the 4 percent who use Hornady and RCBS.....brave pioneers they are

There is a market for just about anything. Kind of like a Saab or Fiat for example, never going to make it to any sort of decent market share but some people will buy them just to be different.

 

[Edster12]

That's it I am going to go out and buy a Ford and a John Deere

 

[whughett]

If your young and cost is no object, Dillion is the only way to go, the equipment will pay for its self and the kids/grand kids can still get many years from it. My 550 has been overhauled by Dillon, complete linkage/ram at no cost except shipping to them. Turn around time less than two weeks.

If you are along in years why spend the money on something that will last two life times.

On the subject of auto advance, I have used my 550 for three decades and tens of thousands of rounds and the occasional "no powder" still gets by. Unless you have the concentration of a monk I'd find the auto advance a disadvantage.

More than 4 stations. Why? Deprime, size, prime 1st station, Mouth/neck expand, bell, (for lead bullets) powder fill, 2nd station, bullet seat crimp 3rd station. My 4th station is only used for a special taper crimp die for 45 ACP and the 45C when I use bullets with no crimping groove, otherwise it is empty.
Well just this old coots IMO and very subjective at that.

 

[Khaot1c]

Case preperation. Some of us like to clean out primer pockets. So running the Sizer/Deprimer on a Single Stage makes sense.

As for 2 die plates, I don't understand.

When I'm doing full length resizing for my semi-auto rifles there's usually trimming involved so prep is done separate from the loading process. If I'm loading for a bolt action and only neck sizing then I can get away with doing all steps on the Dillion. Except I still drop manually through a funnel on the powder die because I use extruded powder for my bolts.
While some powder measures may be "good" at dropping consistent charges I prefer to have my RCBS Chargemaster weight/dispense the charge and I drop it manually through the funnel. No, it's not as fast.
When loading for my semi auto rifles I adapt to a powder that meters well enough. Ie; for 223 I use H335 or WIN748 - whatever the hoarders haven't managed to pluck off the shelf before I get there.

 

[cfullgraf]

Where you cannot see in the case, which is my reason for wanting the seating to be in front.

For loading 300 BLK on the Pro2000, I moved the powder measure to station 4 and seat in station 5.

I can see in the case after dropping powder.

The Pro2000 indexes a quarter turn at one time and it can get fairly energetic. By moving the powder measure, I can minimize or eliminate powder spilling from the 300 BLK case during indexing.

There are fixes for this that I have not had time to implement yet. Also, loading 204 Ruger on the Pro2000 does not have the powder spilling problem.

 

[RealGun]

grubbylabs wrote in part:

now some of my rounds jump out of the bin because it points down now

Inline Fabrication makes a catch bin retainer plate that fills in the front face of the bin. A little duct tape would work too.

 

[Limey46]

Here's another vote for the RCBS Pro 2000. Manual indexing, fast and easy caliber changes, significantly less KABOOM risk. I used a Dillon until it made me crazy once too often.

 

[RealGun]

I do not understand the need for more than 4 stations.

I could have used at least 6. I load .45 ACP on the LNL AP. When I went to lead I found the need to add the Lyman M-Die for a wider case mouth without losing neck tension. To make space for it, I had to remove the RCBS Lockout Die. That die was a luxury anyway, because I can and do look into the case before placing a bullet. The press is fully equipped with lighting to enable that.

I decap, size, and prime on the press, and I use a separate crimp die. We're full up.

If I was loading jacketed bullets, I believe 4 stations would be enough. I use the LCT for revolver calibers and do well with just the 4 stations, performing all operations on the turret.

The other thing that would help is if die makers would offer die sets specifically for lead bullets. Then the special dies like the Lyman M-die would not demand space for a station. I have a backorder in for the Hornady 45 Colt COWBOY set, which has a unique seater and expander, optimized for lead bullets and their diameter.

 

[dbarnhart]

Here is an article I wrote a couple of years ago about the cost of caliber changes on the Hornady LnL:

http://www.shootandreload.com/2011/06/29/hornady-lnl-ap-caliberpowder-changes/

 

[WaywardSon]

I have been asking myself the same question as the OP & am really glad to have found this thread. I have used a RockChucker for decades and will keep it for rifle calibers with the possible exception of .223

Although I like the looks of the Hornady, I have been leaning towards the 550...and have found nothing here to change my mind. Thanks for the info!

 

[RealGun]

Although I like the looks of the Hornady, I have been leaning towards the 550...and have found nothing here to change my mind.

Although there were clearly stated advantages to the Hornady. Must be some other reasoning, magic, or glory factor involved. If in a narrower application, say loading bucket loads of action competition ammo, the 550B might be a great choice. It certainly has a following.

 

[cfullgraf]

Responses and comments n blue.

D1. Why size/deprime your .223 plinking ammo on a single stage when you're going to have your progressive set up for that caliber anyways?

I do not size rifle cases on the progressive because I lke to trim the cases and clean off the resizing lubricant before loading the cases. I prep cases shortly after shooting so batches are small and store them away for a future loading session. Also, I do not like lubricant on my fingers when handling powder and primers. I do resize handgun cases on the progressive but do not load at the same time. I still like to clean cases between sizing and loading. It is my preferred process, my idiosyncrasy, and i still load more ammunition faster than I can shoot.
...

4. I said "stuck." Sure it's possible to move it. Unthread it and thread it back onto a different die plate. Or like you said, have several caliber specific powder dies, but now you're adding cost, unless RCBS gives these to you. I've bought exactly one extra powder die for my press because I have a 2nd powder measure. One stays set up for rifle and one stays set up for pistol. If I'm switching from a pistol caliber to a rifle caliber it doesn't matter what station I put my powder measure in, it takes me about 5 seconds to remove one powder measure and put the other in place. I'm dialing in my charge while you're still unthreading your powder die (if you don't leave it "stuck"). Now, there's other variables to that, but if we each have 2 powder measures and 2 powder dies, its still going to be a quicker swap on the Hornady. It may not be a whole lot of time in the grand scheme of things, but that depends on how often someone is going to switch calibers.

When I set up my Hornady L-N-L, I could either reset the powder drop die at each cartridge change, buy a powder drop die for each cartridge or make custom drop tubes so that I could use one drop die for all cartridges. Unfortunately, I did not come up the drop tube idea until I had bought 10 powder drop tubes and 10 bushings, one set for each cartridge that I load on the L-N-L. The upside is that I have lots of drop tubes for experimenting on my Pro2000.On the Pro2000, i do set the powder measure up at station 4 for one cartridge for a variety of reasons.

5. I pull out one die with a simple 1/8th turn, pull straight up, flip my die over and clean it, place it back in the press (no messing with bushings or settings). You pull a couple pins, slide the die plate out, flip the whole thing over (Oh you didn't move your powder measure did you? Man what a mess that could make.), (When you operate a MEC 600jr for any lenght of time, you learn to empty the powder hopper before doing any other maintenance on the press)clean the die, slide the plate back in, and insert the pins. If you did move you powder measure to be on the die plate, you could surely unscrew that seater die but that's taking more time, even if its not too much extra. Me personally, I like the idea and practice of only removing that seater die. I'm human and humans make mistakes. If I drop that die on a hard concrete floor chances are I'd only damage the $4 LNL bushing, at worst the bushing and a $15 die. If you remove that whole die plate you could potentially damage a $30-55 die set (maybe more if you use "fancy" dies) and a $15-20 die plate if you drop it. But maybe that's just me over-thinking it. I just hate unscrewing dies.

What ever floats your boat on bushings/die plates. Spinning the dies in and out is no big deal for me. The lock rings that I use provide a positive stop and have no loss in adjustment. I have no use for the Lee o-ring non-postive lock rings. I would be just as happy with my Hornady L-N-L if all the die positions were threaded and did not have the bushings. There is more slop in the bushings than I would like to see but I will use the bushing since they are there. Yes, Hornady sells a shim kit to tighten up the bushing while in use, but I should not need them.

With my Pro2000, I bought a second die plate for the second cartridge that I load on it but have not opened the package yet.

I do prefer to store my dies in the plastic storage die boxes. Redding, RCBS and Lyman boxes will fit my storage location for dies. With small modifications, the dies with L-N-L bushings fit in RCBS boxes.

I'm not knocking the Pro 2000 at all. I think it definitely has its pros but looking at it objectively I see some cons too. The LNL does too.....for starters it's Husker red, but I can understand why. If I had the means and knowledge I'd make my own press. I'd take some of the ideas from Hornady, RCBS, and Dillon.... maybe even Lee.

Yes, every press model has its advantages and disadvantage and each individual views these differently. It would be pretty boring if all presses were blue or red or even green.

 

[cfullgraf]

Although I like the looks of the Hornady, I have been leaning towards the 550...and have found nothing here to change my mind. Thanks for the info!

The main disqualifier for me with the Dillon 550B is the lack or auto indexing.

But, many folks view manual indexing as an advantage.

 

[GT1]

I personally would not load without a lock out die or similar on a progressive. There are your five stations without trying unless you like seating and crimping in the same step, most do not. I have a xl 650 with the whole works(Case feeder, GSI bullet feeder), well in to 4 digits for that. Base RCBS will cost as much as a base 650, but you will get less press and it has no case feeder option.
A 650 is not designed to run without a case feeder, it would be a little annoying to do so.
LnL is a good press, does large rifle well. The LnL case feeder is an afterthought and finicky(youtoob vids will show some mods folks make).
The 650 is awesome, but really made for putting out the straight wall pistol rounds, it really will crank out 800 an hour once a person is tuned in.

There are like 3 or 4 people on all the reloading boards I read that have green progressives. I think that says it all on that one.

For what one gets probably LnL. It really is a good deal for the average reloader that wants to step up to a really nice progressive.

I'm a huge Lee fan, but I have no experience with their progressives, love their other stuff, have a LCT bolted next to my 650, running .223 through it, mostly. Their dies are as good as any and run fine in the 650.
There is a lot of hatin' on the LM and Pro 1000 on most forums. Many guys over at gunloadscastboolits like them and say they work fine.

Buy what makes you happy, that's all that matters in the end. If you hate it a Dillon, RCBS or LnL will resell well enough that it won't be too painful to switch.

The 550 was not an option for me either, no auto-index, and four stations kind of blow.
A friend of mine runs one, very, very fast(he can outrun me on my 650 easily), case feeder and a Mr Bullet feeder on it. He is a practical pistol grand master(with a machinist background) with very good hand eye coordination, and really trusts himself and his powder measure.