why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[magyvor]

Ive been reading alot of "If you can handle 380, get a 9--380 isnt enough ....blah blah blah"

I carry a Bersa thunder 380 daily, and feel very confident it will stop the BG. I would bet my life on it, or those I care for.

Now let me explain why, before the thousands of responses come flooding in....lol

IF, in a worst case scenario, a BG (lets say 6'5", 320lbs) is an imminent threat to my life, and I have to use my 380 to stop that threat, the 3 rounds I can put center mass in about 1 second, should at the very least make him take notice.....now I have 5 rounds left, and when they hit him in the face, Im sure the threat will stop. I really believe this. oh yeah, the other 7 rounds in my spare mag should help too if need be

Also, I carry this 90% of the time because I like the gun. Im accurate with it, its comfortable to carry, and I have faith in its reliability. I have an XD9 I carry on occasion, and a 1911 as well. For years I caried a P239 in .357 sig.

Now however, the price of the bersa, and my faith in my ability in it and myself make it more than enough power to stop the BG.

That being said, I will be the first to admit 9mm, 357 sig, 357 mag, 40 S&W, 45 acp, and a few others are more powerful.....but again, my bersa is PLENTY of gun.

As for the tests of the bullet not penetrating animal skulls, again, if your hit in the face with a 380 4 or 5 times, something tells me your gonna want to stop playing now and call times out---lol.

GREATEST FORUM ON THE WEB BTW

thats my 2 cents worth, thanks all

 

[HighVelocity]

As for the tests of the bullet not penetrating animal skulls, again, if your hit in the face with a 380 4 or 5 times, something tells me your gonna want to stop playing now and call times out---lol.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the odds of you hitting an attacker in the face 4 or 5 times are slim, very slim.

I could be wrong if your name is Brian Enos or Rob Leatham.

 

[Jacobus Rex]

I have long suspected that there is not much real world practical difference between 9mm and .380. I think that for 95% of shootings it would make no difference at all. The upside of the .380 is that a .380 in the pocket pocket is infinitely better than the 9mm that you left at home.

Having said that. I think that the .380 could get you in trouble with dogs.

That hasn't stopped me from carrying a .380 when larger pistols won't work.

 

[Chad]

I can't say that I'd have that kind of accuracy in a stressful situation...

But when I can't carry my Colt Delta 10mm I carry a Bersa Thunder with confidence in it's accuracy and reliability.

 

[P95Carry]

Well - I have just started off a friend of ours on a Bersa - and transitioned my wife to the same. ''My'' Bersa is now hers I guess! They have both done real well and are now competent and set up.

For them - from my POV the issue is manageability - a gun they can handle and shoot well - better good hits from that than trying something larger they are not so good with.

Now, let's remember tho that it is probably fair to say that '' in extremis'' fine motor skills will be gone and so, good as we may be in practice - your 7+1 well may not all connect when stressed. If those shots can be well placed then probably the perp is gonna be hurt and bad - but poor hits could, with a PCP/Meth doped BG just P him off.

I daresay my 9mm may only be marginally more effective - and perhaps .45acp would do a bit more damage but whatever - for sure shot placement is all. If, and this is a big if - you do hit well with the .380 then good chance the BG will go down but - whether this actually neutralizes the threat quick enough is another matter. We will always argue this stuff back and forth - ad infinitum

I think if you are happy with platform - proficient and practiced then - very possibly you'll do as much or more to stop the threat as someone with more gun - and so if you are happy with that it's fine - you are still well prepared.

Following posters - try not to let this be just a caliber war OK?

 

[browningguy]

I don't really see why anyone would bash carrying a .380. I have a Bersa .380 as a BUG, and depending ons season and what I'm wearing I may cary it as my primary out here in the suburbs. But when I have to go out of my little neck of the woods it's the .40 High Power.

 

[ghost squire]

Interesting, by your logic a pellet gun is PLENTY for self defense.

 

[P95Carry]

Must be missing the ''logic''!

 

[wingnutx]

I have a Firestorm .380, which is a Bersa with a different name slapped on. Great little pistol

 

[magyvor]

a little more explanation on the face shots.......

OK, first of all, great replys you guys

Now, back to worst case...........I have hit BG 3 times center mass.....assuming that the distance is CLOSE, wich MOST real world SD shootings are, and I cant retreat, shooting at a target the size of a paper plate at a few feet away shoudl be manageable...even when the stress level is through the roof.

I aknowledge that you never know how your going to perform in such cercumstances, but the only way to be prepared is proper mindset and practice with your firearm. That being the case, again, Im confident.

As for a pellet gun being as effective.........Im not going to respond to that, its not at all what I was trying to point out.

Thanks again everyone

 

[bulbboy]

I sometimes carry a .40, sometimes a 9, and sometimes a .380 - don't feel any less safe with the .380. I know people that can't hit anything with their .45's but think anything less is girlee. The .380 is plenty

 

[neoncowboy]

oops, double post

 

[neoncowboy]

lol...I don't even have anything except .45, it's plenty of gun.

I don't think I'd feel any safer if I had a .380 to carry sometimes too.

 

[Kurush]

Here are some test results for you guys who think 380 is close to 9mm:

.380 ACP Hornady 90gr XTP JHP (Beretta 85)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm

.380 ACP Winchester 95gr Supreme SXT JHP (Beretta 85)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/win380-95ssxt-b85.htm

9mm Georgia Arms 124gr +P "Gold Dot" JHP (Glock 26)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/9mm/geo9-124+p-g26.htm

Basically 380 can either penetrate enough or expand enough but not both. Remember that 9mm and 9mm +P respectively have 62% and 80% higher maximum pressure than 380.

 

[M-Rex]

Here are some test results for you guys who think 380 is close to 9mm:

.380 ACP Hornady 90gr XTP JHP (Beretta 85)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm

.380 ACP Winchester 95gr Supreme SXT JHP (Beretta 85)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/win380-95ssxt-b85.htm

9mm Georgia Arms 124gr +P "Gold Dot" JHP (Glock 26)
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/9mm/geo9-124+p-g26.htm

Basically 380 can either penetrate enough or expand enough but not both. Remember that 9mm and 9mm +P respectively have 62% and 80% higher maximum pressure than 380.

I'd be interested in seeing data for the 102 gr. Remington Golden Saber round in .380.

I have the Bersa M83 (a Thunder pre-cursor) and it's a nice little pistol. Right now it's stocked with 90 gr. Federal Hydro-shoks. As a combat pistol, it'd be so-so, but as a hold-out, it's just fine.

 

[Kurt_M]

OK, let's consider the top one-shot-stop percentages in real world shootings for four of the most popular handgun calibers; .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

.380 - 71% (Cor-bon 90 gr.)
9mm - 83% (Winchester 115 gr.)
.40 S&W - 94% (Remington 165 gr.)
.45 ACP - 96% (Federal 230 gr.)

Taken from http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

Now I will grant you that shot placement trumps caliber almost every time. A .45 to the arm is basically a miss in terms of stopping power, while a .380 to the face is nearly a guaranteed fight-stopper. However, I think you're far too confident in your ability to deliver precisely aimed shots under extreme duress. Unless you've been in a firefight previously you have no real way of knowing what your reaction will be. Or as the Marines say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." You may be Cool Hand Luke or you may be Snivelling Sally; until you've been there you can never be sure. To count on a head shot drastically limits your options and may get you killed. The best thing you can do is train and stack the deck in your favor with every advantage you can find. If a .380 is all you can handle by all means carry a .380, it's far, far better than your bare hands. But if you can handle and comfortably carry something bigger there's no point in putting yourself at a disadvantage with a smaller, lighter, slower cartridge.

To take that idea a bit farther, I would say that 99% of us would be doing well to get a center-mass hit when in fear for our lives, let alone multiple head shots. If center-mass is all I can reasonably expect to hit, I want to punch the biggest most ragged hole in that mass that I can. Bigger holes bleed more and bigger bullets have a better chance of hitting vital organs or the spinal column, which along with a head shot is the only way to physically instantly incapacitate a living being with a bullet wound. I've personally seen deer run 50, 60 or 100 yards after taking a .30-06 directly through the heart. I've also seen one that took a direct head shot from that same .30-06. It didn't run. Humans aren't so different physically, the only difference is that a man who has been shot through the chest usually knows that it's likely to be fatal and will probably quit fighting due to fear. If he is unaware that he has been hit or just doesn't care, he is still capable of attacking for at least ten seconds even if his heart is in shreds. That's more than enough time to empty a magazine in my general direction or to walk ten feet and put a knife into my chest. I'm rambling a bit here, but the point is that none of us should think of our handguns or even long guns as magical instant death-dealers. They help to even the odds and go a very long way towards stacking the deck in our favor, but they don't make us invincible no matter what caliber is written on the side of the barrel. It is still undeniable that some calibers stack the deck higher than others and we should strive to mitigate chance to the best of our ability. I'd hate to die for want of a bigger bullet.

 

[woerm]

.32 is fine by me

the 1903 will cover most of my SD needs,

if 25 rounds doesn't resolve the issue I will get a rifle out.

the .32 is some better than a .22

from the same site:


http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

32 ACP Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Winchester ST 151 99 66% 0.41" 9.2"
Federal HS 23 14 61% 0.44" 9.3"
CCI GD 10 6 60% 0.42" 9.9"
Winchester FMJ 203 99 49% 0.32" 11.1"


hmm they don't cover the Serria 61 gr jhp I use along w/ the 71 gr fmj

whatever works for you.

r

 

[M-Rex]

Another good site for ballistic/wounding data, though they aren't too keen on Marshall and Sanow.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm

 

[magyvor]

The caliber battle continues.......

I thought I mentioned that bigger is better. And I also agree, and thought I wrote, that I dont know how I would react in a SD situation. No one does. Again, my point is that ANY caliber doesnt guarentee your safety...training and mindset will certainly help though.

I know this will get a few reactions, so I will point it out.

We have all seen war movies. The scene where the soldier is holding the radio still trying to contact HQ during a fire fight........the camera pans down and his entire lower body is gone. That kind of thing happens, happened. So if a guy gets half his body blown off froma bazooka, and doesnt die instantly, Im pretty sure a 45 isnt gonna guarantee instant death either.

AGAIN, I admit bigger is better, and again, I have, and will carry a larger caliber pistol than a 380......But I still feel as safe carrying my Bersa as my 1911.

We can argue forever, and I am sure people will, but no-one will ever convince me that 380 isnt enough

Dont ya love to agree to dis-agree????

 

[M-Rex]

There is a valid point to be made that any firearm is better than no firearm.

 

[Kurush]

I'd be interested in seeing data for the 102 gr. Remington Golden Saber round in .380.

I have the Bersa M83 (a Thunder pre-cursor) and it's a nice little pistol. Right now it's stocked with 90 gr. Federal Hydro-shoks. As a combat pistol, it'd be so-so, but as a hold-out, it's just fine.

There are some test data on those here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm

I think the best load that I've seen test results for is the 90gr XTP. It expands out to around .45 caliber while still giving decent penetration. I agree that .380 is an ok BUG caliber, and it's really hard to beat a compact .380 for size.

 

[Crosshair]

Time for an old quote:

A .22 in the you're hand beats a .45 in the safe at home.

Sure we would all like to carry a 45 at all times, but sometimes reality dictates that something smaller must be used or go with no gun at all.

 

[Byron Quick]

I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT. It's both my tertiary BUG and primary carry in victim disarmament zones.

I add a 1911 and a Kahr P9 whenever possible.

It's not a matter of not trusting the caliber. Rather it's a matter of not trusting pistol calibers as a class.

80% of people shot with a pistol survive.

If I see trouble coming; I will attempt to leave-with a rifle in my hands.

I work as an emergency nurse. Based on my experience with shot people, it's not a matter of this bullet and that caliber-ALL pistol bullets and calibers are iffy. Some more than others.

 

[hso]

magyvor, have you had combat handgun classes where force on force was part of the training and you were required to draw and shoot while pressed?

BTW, as Byron does, I carry a P3AT in .380, but that's usually coupled with a .45 or 9mm depending upon carry options.

 

[1 old 0311]

At times I carry my .380 Guardian, or my .380 PPK/S. The great part is the faster follow up shots, than with the 9 or 45. Each to his own.

Kevin