Will someone please help me with the scout rifle concept?

[back40]

so your rifle has no front sight, no bipod, won't accept stripper clips or detachable mag, and is overweight, yet IF it were chambered for .308, it would be a perfect scout rifle?

i see a bit of liberty taken with the definition here. no disrespect. it seems as though aside from the steyr, a scout rifle is whatever one wishes to call it.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ It has a front sight... re-read where it is located.


"No conventional front sight is fitted, that sight being provided as a milled on stub-sight integral to the silver-soldered on front scope base. That places a front sight sufficiently forward for use, but maintains a perfectly snag-free barrel."



It's about 18 inches forward of the ghost ring and is more than adequate to 100 yards. The weight is true-weight: With sling, fully loaded. Strip that out and you can lie about the weight... like anyone manufacturer would do. In .308 it would be lighter. Remember that this is a *medium rifle*... not a "pure" scout only by choice of caliber. I recognize that: So should you.

With all due respect: The rifle I have described was laid out for me with assistance by Jeff Cooper personally, and was built at Gunsite as a prototype Scout long before Steyr was involved with the "Final" version. It's pedigree is not in question. We all knew what we wanted as the end result, this was an incremental step towards it. Those steps took design to it's end conclusion: The Steyr. I don't have one, but I recognize it as the pinnicle of the design envisioned by Cooper and the rest of the Family Members who worked towards its realization. It's still not perfect... but it's true to the form. The Ruger is not.

And, with further due respect: I was there, and you were not. I've zero doubt what the inventor of the concept intended a Scout Rifle to be. Many adult beverages were consumed in the discussion. Perhaps Old Willie is someone from whom a sea story about the breed might be welcome. If not, I am quite happy to quit forthwith offering the advice and information, for which I ask no reward.



"I would imagine the Ruger GSR is mostly a marketing opportunity between Ruger and Grey Gunsite, then"


A fair assesment, and an honest one. It's a good rifle for the general public, and has many merits. Cooper would, however, have objected to the name. Of this I am absolutely certain. I any event, it's about as close as you can get in a non-custom econo-rifle. Not a terrible choice by any means... just... <shrugs>...



Suggest reading *every one* of the Coopers Commentaries as linked above. A full reading will clarify a lot of misinformation.



Willie


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[splithoof]

The Ruger GSR, as I believe, was a collaborative effort between modern day Gunsite (Gunsite Academy), as run by Mr. Buzz Mills, and Ruger. Grey Gunsite was earlier, as when it was bought by Dr. Richard Jee, who eventually banned(?) Jeff Cooper from spending time with students, thus his focus for a time at teaching elsewhere.
Visiting the Sconce is a highpoint of a Gunsite class; a number of rifles can be viewed from the early days of API.

 

[MistWolf]

Willie, it's been quite a few years, but I believe I read about your Remington Super Scout in one of the gun rags way back when. When Guns & Ammo showed up in my mailbox, Cooper's Corner was the first thing I'd read. For quite a few columns he wrote about his vision for the Scout Rifle and it's desired features. One of the more interesting aspects was the use of the Ching sling. There were things about the Scout Rifle I disagreed with (such as the use of the intermediate eye relief scope because I found standard eye relief scopes to be quicker) but the concept was very well thought out. I enjoyed reading his writings very much. In fact, G&A is one of the gun periodicals I used to learn how to read. I really wanted to meet Col.Cooper, but never had the honor

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Quite possibly. Jeff was a real fan of the .350 Rem Mag, and we were all scrounging used gun shelves pre-internet looking for Remington 660's in the caliber. Finally Remington made up a very small run of the Model 7's in Kevlar for us to use. No clue how many, but not very many at all. Put it this way, the caliber markings were hand stamped by Remington, not roll-marked.

Trying to think the year, I believe it was about 1987 when I had Super-Scout built. You need to frame the world then: One IER scope was available, and even that only becuase Burris built them for us when no other maker would do so. No internet: We wrote letters, called each other, and met in person. No imports from CZ: The Cold War was not yet over. Jeff scrounged that CZ action for Baby "somehow" and we were all terribly jealous. The bases were hand made... no such thing as bolting together a rifle. Have some original Ching Slings, and two rifles I bought from him before he died: My 9.3 CZ and a .458 Win on a Mauser action. My Medium and my version of "Baby", both customized for Ching and later revised for me by Brockman.

Cory T, the gurrent smithy at Gunsite and I were shooting, flying, and diving buddies back in NJ in those days. He went one way and I went the other.


Willie

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[buzz meeks]

I've been playing with a Ruger GSR since the winter and generally like it. What it's missing though, is the essential handiness that Cooper saw in some of the Scout's antecedents like the Mannlicher-Schonauer and the Winchester 94. The Ruger is short and handles quickly. But something - call it handiness or friendliness- is just missing.

When I finish a range session with the Ruger GSR, I often pick up my Marlin 336 and wonder if the Marlin, though relatively underpowered, doesn't achieve the essence of a scout rifle more fully than the Ruger.

 

[Offfhand]

Just for fun, take a look at the attached photo of cover of 1966 Sports Afield annual and rifle at top.

 

[mac66]

Some interesting ads from the mid 1960s American Rifleman

 

[Offfhand]

Here's an interesting magazine photo of Gun Writer Pete Brown, circa 1964-65

 

[Willie Sutton]

Great historical pics. There's little doubt that the 600 and 660 Remington's were the start of the entire thing. We searched every gunstore around for them. .308's were sought after. .243's not so much. .350 Rem Mag ones warranted a call to the brethren with the term "nah nah, na nah nah" incorporated into the conversation. They are still superb rifles.

Willie

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[Willie Sutton]

So a funny thing happened on Gunbroker today....

After was scratching my head thinking about the early days of the Scout Rifle at Gunsite, and the Remington 600/660 basis of the thing, I was a bit curious and stuck "Remington 600" into the Gunbroker search engine and found this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=359879300

And I said HOLY COW!


It's a rifle that I RECOGNIZE, one I have probaby shot. It's very obviously one of the Proto-Scouts that was built at about the same time as my Model 7 "Super-Scout" prototype. It has every hallmark of the ones that John was building at the Smithy at Gunsite.

Regardless of the description of the owner that the seller got it from, I think it "might" have been Eric Ching's personal rifle. The "feature" giving it away is the use of three normal sling studs rather than the flush mounted Pachmeyers used by the rest of the group, which was Eric's preference. it might be a similar rifle, but in any event there is zero question that it's an "Honest to God" Gunsite built proto-scout in .308, dating I'd say to about 1987-88.

Ching-Sling for those not knowlagable of the idea:


This is probably the best of the articles to read first:

http://artoftherifleblog.com/the-ching-sling/2012/03/the-ching-sling.html

Note the third sling-swivel in the photos of the rifle.


also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_sling

http://www.blaserpro.com/articles/ching01.php


Finally, this is a MUST READ for those interested in the Scout as envisioned originally. It's what Eric put together on the rifle, with many interesting bits. Read it and contemplate it.

http://chingsling.com/


This page has all of what I tried to express earlier included. I think I did pretty well from memory:


http://chingsling.com/#What


Including this extract written by Cooper:


"the barrel extrusion which constitutes the forward telescope mount offers a proper base for a front sight. An aperture sight on the receiver bridge, in combination with a front sight at the forward telescope mount, offers a sight radius of about 11 inches--quite sufficient for reserve use. This system avoids the necessity of hanging the front sight out on the end of the barrel, where it catches on things, breaks, snags and muddies up..."


And I remind that I wrote above about Super-Scout:


"No conventional front sight is fitted, that sight being provided as a milled on stub-sight integral to the silver-soldered on front scope base. That places a front sight sufficiently forward for use, but maintains a perfectly snag-free barrel."


Hmmm.... Maybe old Willie has it right.


Needless to say... this rifle is now coming to rest next to Super-Scout. My finger hit "buy it now" before the brain even processed it. Call it the "surprise break" of the internet auction shootin' match.

I feel truly fortunate to have seen this. It's an important part of the original Scout Rifle geneology.



(and note that the seller refers to it as a "Guide Rifle"... )


Willie

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[splithoof]

That rifle on the auction had what looked to be hand stamped numbers, maybe for a short run as you described the Model 7 .350RM guns? If that indeed was Eric's rifle, it would be really cool if it ended up in the Sconce.

 

[ElToro]

870 is a good price. would cost a lot more than that to have it built.

 

[MistWolf]

Ya gonna tell the seller what he had?

 

[MattShlock]

I thinnk the seller knew what he had -- they described it and who it was made for,why, where.

Nice gun. Can it actually be used with stripper clips or would it need a guide in the frame -- has the thumb relief in the frame.

 

[chicharrones]

Congrats on getting a very nice rifle, Willie.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Thanks guys. The rifle looks like it started as a basic 600, dogleg bolt handle and markings gives that away. Ill know more after its in hand. I'm exchanging notes and later a call to the seller, asking for its past history as known. I'm expecting that it passed thru a few sets of hands in its way to the dealer who has it. Ill tell him what I know after he tells me his end, I don't want to influence his replies until I hear them. It's got the usual Remington markings, nothing special there. There's no stripper clip modification (frankly I don't thing any sporting rifle based customs ever had them). The "slot" is just the basic 600 action contour (I assume you are looking at the photo of the top of the receiver). Just as an aside: Jeff thought that stripper clip guide, magazine cutoff, possible box magazine, and bipod to be "desirable" but not essential. The fact is that the only way to get the guides and cutoff is to shorten by cutting and welding a Springfield 03 action. That never happened. We did look at Krags, which has cutoff and the unique side loading magazine allowing top-off with action closed (which is a beautiful system) .. And my paleo-Scout on a Krag was that exploration. In the end we settled without those features for practical reasons: no available action. Jeff went thru this all with Steyr as they developed the Uber-Scout. The cutoff was never included. FAR more important was balance at magazine for carry. No protruding box magazine was ever contemplated. They ruin the ability to carry with hand under the magazine for hours on end. Adding this "feature" is pure waffenpasselhaft. Look that one up...

It'll likely end up in The Sconce along with Super Scout one day. I have two other rifles of Erik's and a friend who is many years my junior and a Gunsite Family member will be the custodian of my "select rifle collection" upon my passing. He's charged with good custodianship and selection of the next "owner". He's friends with Lindy, and I've expressed my interest in a few of the rifles going to her. So.. You might see it there, I will not: It'll all happen after I go west for the last time. I'm confident they will be in good hands.

It was this thread that caused me to go look at gunbroker. After it arrives I will photograph it along with Super Scout and will start a new thread on "The evolution of the Scout Rifle". I need to find a copy if the proceedings of the first scout rifle conference, as its missing from Erik's now obviously unmaintained website. If anyone has it, I would be much obliged.


Willie

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[MistWolf]

Willie, if you start a separate thread about Scout Rifles, please PM me the link. Thanks

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Ditto, learned much on this thread, very eye opening!

 

[henschman]

Did y'all ever consider the FR-8 Spanish Mauser as the basis for a Scout rifle? Or was all that going on before they were widely imported? I have a Scout I built on that platform, and the rifle is almost perfect for the role even in factory trim. The barrel profile is a little heavier than I would like toward the receiver, but other than that it was born to be a Scout.

 

[chicharrones]

The Ruger GSR, as I believe, was a collaborative effort between modern day Gunsite (Gunsite Academy), as run by Mr. Buzz Mills, and Ruger. Grey Gunsite was earlier, as when it was bought by Dr. Richard Jee, who eventually banned(?) Jeff Cooper from spending time with students, thus his focus for a time at teaching elsewhere.
Visiting the Sconce is a highpoint of a Gunsite class; a number of rifles can be viewed from the early days of API.

Gotcha. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Willie Sutton]

Did y'all ever consider the FR-8 Spanish Mauser as the basis for a Scout rifle? Or was all that going on before they were widely imported

We didn't, and for the reason you cite. Bear in mind that the scout rifle conferences started in the early 80's, the Spanish rifles had not been imported. The Mauser as a basis was considered but discarded early, for action length reasons, but that was for consideration as the basis for "new build" rifles. We always held the Enfield No. 5 in very high esteem though for an "off the shelf field-expedient Scout" and the FR-8 surely fits that mold. Although a long action and overweight, it's a fair approximation. Yours looks great. I'd shed some of the extra "stuff" up front if possible, but still.. It's worthy.

The one thing that we never contemplated was electronic sights. Even now I'm not truly convinced that their relative lack of precision and need for logistic support in the form of batteries is a deal breaker or not. Obviously they have been well used by many. Not against them or for them in this role.

Willie

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[splithoof]

Speaking of electronic sights, I use the Leupold FireDot reticle in my VXR EIR Scout Scope; it has worked very well, and made it through a whole week at Gunsite with no problems, and has been banged around plenty before and after that. While a bit larger than the 2.5X offering, I find it easier to make faster hits with for my aging eyes.
Willie, it is very kind of you to consider that rifle for an eventual return to the Sconce. I hope Mr. Mills will keep it as a museum some day; the number of treasures and artifacts on display really means a lot to those fortunate enough to spend time there. Climbing that circular open staircase to Jeff Cooper's small office/perch above, and seeing things undisturbed was really interesting. Also noticing the construction features and other aspects added to the experience. Of course, a visit with the Countess topped it off.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

if you talk loud enough people will listen. Jeff Cooper talked (wrote) loudly and lots bought into his opinion, but you know what they say about opinions. I for one don't buy into the scout rifle, other than wanting a Scout Squad just cause I want one, but it will stay with iron sights.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^ suit yourself! There are plenty of fine rifles. And note two things: there were several formal scout rifle conferences attended by many experts if the time. Proceedings were published and the expressed concensus ideals were exactly that: a concensus opinion. We then would built to the standard, shoot for a year, have another conference and repeat, continuing to evolve and modify the design. Cooper had the chair, but the input was from all attending. That's the first of two things to contemplate. The second is that the scout-scope, which people now confuse with the scout rifle concept, was (is) an *optional accessory* and not a required item. So there are proper scout rifles without glass, along with (very many) rifles with a scout scope that are by no means a scout rifle.



Splithoof, thanks for the data point. As these scopes mature I think incorporation is inevitable.


Willie

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