Will someone please help me with the scout rifle concept?

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willie- my intentions were not to come across harshly. i understand that the rifle you speak of is a prototype and my comments were in jest.

it does seem, however, that many people have certain features that they deem acceptable or not when considering if a rifle falls into the scout category. i understand all of the research and testing that went inot originally by folks like you. i also understand that for many people, my self included, firearms are typically modified to be what suits them best, for their line on work. what works best for one, doesn't necessarily work best for another.

at any rate, i appreciate your time and contribution to this thread, it's been a great one and i look forward to the pics of both your new rifle (which looks fantastic by the way) and the prototype.
 
Although a long action and overweight, it's a fair approximation. Yours looks great. I'd shed some of the extra "stuff" up front if possible, but still.. It's worthy.
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Thanks... yeah, I could definitely lighten it up some more if I got rid of the cleaning kit tube and its lug. I like having an on-board cleaning kit, but I have given thought to storing it in the hollow butt instead. It should be waterproof when the butt pad is tightened down. The ability to mount a bayonet is kind of cool, but not really necessary for this type of rifle I suppose. I might start looking for a spare front sight assembly to cut up.

I definitely understand why red dot sights were not in consideration in the 80s. However, now that there are some with a battery life measured in years, like Aimpoint, I think they are worthy of consideration. One plus is that with a setup like mine, the irons co-witness with the red dot sight; so if the dot goes out, you can just line up the irons right through the dead tube and carry on. Also they are nice and light weight.
 
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I for one don't buy into the scout rifle
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Me neither. If it's a hunting rifle, okay, but why call it a scout then? I believe Cooper's description also included it as a fighting or defense rifle and right there is where the whole thing falls apart because there is no bolt rifle that would function in the fighting or defense role better than a comparable caliber semi auto would. So it's deficient by his own definitions.

A scout is supposed to observe without coming under fire so why the forward mounted optic for "rapid reloading" then? It attempts to cover too many bases and fails at nearly all of them except maybe as a marketing tactic.
 
In use the forward mounted optic for getting on target fast, and to keep both eyes open to help time moving targets. So far it has worked great on running hogs and deer. My last hog hunt resulted in two good boars, taken at 156 yards, who were moving at a decent pace through a barley field. The forward optic made a huge difference, and being able to work the bolt efficiently also helped. I use a GSR, and while I understand that it is not the definition of a true Scout Rifle, it is everything that I prefer, and nothing I don't.
As for a defensive platform, I believe that for those of us stuck for the time being in California, it may soon be one of the few choices left.
 
"it does seem, however, that many people have certain features that they deem acceptable or not when considering if a rifle falls into the scout category. i understand all of the research and testing that went inot originally by folks like you. i also understand that for many people, my self included, firearms are typically modified to be what suits them best, for their line on work. what works best for one, doesn't necessarily work best for another."


There's a term for a rifle (like the Ruger) that is a pseudo-scout. It's properly called a "Pseudo-Scout"... ;) As in "nearly, almost, in homage to, but not exactly". The definition that the Family uses is the one set forth as a result of the Scout Rifle research and development done at Gunsite. You can call anything whatever you like... but as Abraham Lincoln famously observed when someone asked "how many legs does a dog have if we call it's tail a leg" "Well.. it has four legs, because no matter what you call a tail, it's not a leg". So you can call any rifle you like a Scout Rifle, but it just aint so. Call them an EXCELLENT rifle, which many are. The definition of Scout does not include a protruding box magazine, muzzle break, or any of the other waffenpasselhaft that is marketed on so called "Scout Rifles". For many the name is just a marketing gimmick. Many Pseudo-Scouts are GREAT rifles.. just excellent. Heck, I really like an SKS with a low power scope attached. But let's not dilute the definition and call it a Scout.


"If it's a hunting rifle, okay, but why call it a scout then? I believe Cooper's description also included it as a fighting or defense rifle"


Let's be clear: There was never any "military" use forseen for these rifles. They are just highly optimized handy sporting rifles to be used for general purpose foraging, truck carry, ranch use, and hunting. Ranch defense might be the only "tactical" use... just in case a war party on horses decides to pillage. Really: The name "Scout" was picked in homage to the frontier scouts of the 1800's, working in Comancheria, guiding exploration parties thru the wilderness. It's no more complex than that. They would have carried a rifle for days, weeks, and months without using it, but when they needed to use it they NEEDED it. That's the spirit of the Scout. Heck, we needed to call it *something* !

There are many different tools with many different names. Pick hammers, for example. Rifles are no different. This one is a Scout Rifle. You can feel free to defend your ranch with an AR-15 or a FAL or a bolt action Model 700 with a 3-9x scope. They will all work, and some perhaps better than a Scout under certain conditions. Nobody feels differently. The Scout is a handy, accurate, light, simple, fast shooting, reliable, and friendly to the hand rifle designed to be carried a lot and shot rarely. It is what it is. If you choose to use one, that's wonderful. If not, thats wonderful too. It's mainly a hunting rifle. If you bear that in mind, it might make it easier to understand. My Super-Scout is suitable for any North American game to ranges of about 200 yards, more if I do my part with range estimation. Deer to Bear to Moose. It's not too bad at shooting woodchucks on the farm if nothing else is handy. Against a pickup truck load of yahoos bent on chasing the cows it would do just fine... in my hands. I can shoot aimed 4 shot strings in less than 3 seconds with it (the Super only has a 3 shot magazine). It is marginally suitable for Cape Buffalo, and just about every other African species with the exception of Elephant. It's one rifle that can do just about every basic job asked of it. When I recieve the .308 one that will become my basic "lower 48 woods" Scout, with Super-Scout reserved for Canada, Alaska, and Africa.

A "tacti-cool" rifle it is not, but in the hands of someone who is a rifleman it is a terribly efficient tool at repelling pests of all sorts and putting meat on the table. Nobody is making claims that it does it all: Every man needs a Heavy, a .22, an AR-15, a scoped long range rifle, and a FG-42 (trust me on that one). But if you have all of those, plus a Scout, and you need to grab one not knowing what you will be doing with it in the next three months of doing *everything* with only one rifle, you would be wise to grab it before you hit the woods.


Personally, I want to build one on one of the nice Miniature Mauser actions in 7.62x39 (one of the definitions for the "Pure Scout" is .30 caliber minimum with easy worldwide ammunition supply, which Super-Scout obviously falls short of) The AK round would be a perfect pairing for one. I think even Jeff would have approved, seeing how common it's become here. He was a huge fan of the .30-30 in a Model 94, and a boltgun with similar ballistics would have appealed. He died before the cartridge became as popular as it is here today. Ease of ammunition supply was a major part of the definition.



And yeah.. now I want a FR-8 too... with red dot optics... (thanks a lot... ;-) )



Willie

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fireside, as has been mentioned, there is more to the forward optic than rapid reloading. you seem to be hung up on the defense and firepower aspect. willie puts it better than i, but the scout covers many bases very well, and specializes in none. any rifle designed for a specific purpose likely won't be nearly as versatile as a scout.
 
^^ to the above, you are absolutely right.


A scout is supposed to observe without coming under fire so why the forward mounted optic for "rapid reloading" then?

I've addressed your "Scout" misconception, so let's look at the second one:

The optic has very little to do with rapid reloading. It surely *eases* loading a boltgun though. But it is REALLY all about minimizing the obscuration of things by the scope, and to allow two-eye-open shooting and very fast target capture. Perhaps a thrown clay bird shooting demonstration with one would clear that up. It's a basic drill with these. And this is why the stripper clip "thing" on the very early "wish list" never went anywhere. Remember that we wanted a magazine cutoff too... shoot one, open the action, and reload singly, retaining the magazine for emergencies. That's not the definition of a rifle designed to be shot a lot. The magazine cutoff idea was from looking at the Krag, and the Springfield. Speaking of a fast to top up magazine: the Krag still has a very special place in the Scout Rifle genesis. It's the fastest magazine to top off in the world: Drop open the magazine cover, spill a handful of cartridges from you hand into the chute, and snap it shut: All with the bolt closed. We REALLY REALLY liked this. Nobody could build a new action for us with a modern locking system to the bolt though, so it failed the need for widely obtainable ammunition.

Rethink the "rapid reloading" thing. This is not a 100 round a day rifle. It's a one round a week rifle... except when practicing for that one shot... ;-)



Willie

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Every man needs a Heavy, a .22, an AR-15, a scoped long range rifle, and a FG-42 (trust me on that one). But if you have all of those, plus a Scout, and you need to grab one not knowing what you will be doing with it in the next three months of doing *everything* with only one rifle, you would be wise to grab it before you hit the woods.
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Lol at the FG-42 comment. Again, there are rifles out there today that cover those bases better than a scout type bolt gun, so it is simply a marketing tactic. It's the american way, build something for a niche that does not exist, sell something that people don't need. To do so you need a marketing scheme in order to make others feel that this product will offer benefits other products do not, regardless of whether those benefits exist or not, hence the "scout".

I'm not trying to knock the idea so much as point out that unless you live somewhere that semi automatic weapons are banned it is a less than optimal choice for a do it all rifle.

you seem to be hung up on the defense and firepower aspect.
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I am hung up on the defense and firepower aspect because Cooper recommends a rifle that is far less than ideal for that purpose (among the others) and at that point his scout rifle definition turns into a marketing tactic at best, a farce at worst. I see it as a glaring deficiency. Mind you, I like the idea of a "scout" rifle and most of my guns come within 75% or more of Cooper's "what makes a scout rifle" list, some of them are bolt guns, but I think it is up to the end user to decide what setup is optimized best for his environment and use habits or you simply have a weapon that is less useful than it should be or rather doesn't cover the bases as well as it could.

For example:

Personally, I want to build one on one of the nice Miniature Mauser actions in 7.62x39 (one of the definitions for the "Pure Scout" is .30 caliber minimum with easy worldwide ammunition supply, which Super-Scout obviously falls short of) The AK round would be a perfect pairing for one.
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Sounds like a neat gun, but I'd rather just have a quality AK. For the price of a custom built bolt gun I could. The only disadvantage I would have is a little more weight, a little less accuracy, and *gasp* MAYBE a little less reliability none of which are detrimental to it's effective use. None of which are glaring deficiencies. So again, other than the enjoyment factor of a nice rifle, what makes such a selection better than a quality AK for scout use?
 
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^ suit yourself. Nobody is trying to take away your favorites. It's obvious that you've not really studied the subject if you think this is a "defensive" rifle. It's a hunting rifle. Good luck using an AK in the environs where we can take Scouts.

The FG-42 is fun. Truly. It's good to have choices.


Willie

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After all this interesting exchange, and some insight from the "inside", it occurs to me that Cooper, IMO, should have called it a "guides" rifle or something else perhaps rather than a term that can be related to a military context, if it is indeed a hunting rifle. A "scout" is a term that could be used to describe one who goes out to discover the location of game animals, kept livestock, or other resources. In that use for me (my Pseudo Scout GSR) it has made a dandy jeep rifle, and offers more power than my sidearm. It is possible that it could be used at the ranch as a defensive rifle, and in that capacity I am fine with it and the ten round magazines.
Now if I were ranching down along the southern border or close to it out of California, as a defensive/Jeep rifle my choice would likely be the M1A Scout Squad, or some other semi-auto with a twenty round magazine. It could even be an AR or AK or some type, but a bolt-action it would not. In that location self defense I believe would be much more likely an occurrence than where we are now.
One of the reasons I really like the GSR is that it blends in very well with the community over here; while securely locked in the vertical dash rack of the jeep, it seems like just another rancher's rifle that nobody cares about.
 
Col Cooper made a lot of references to the military scout in his rationale for the Scout rifle.
That 99.999999.....% of his audience has no application for a short light bolt action rifle other than hunting or target shooting, did not appear to bother him.

There was that one picture of 15-20 years ago, though.
It showed a Bosnian trudging through the Balkans with his Steyr Scout rifle. His fellow irregular was armed with one or another AK.


There was a Remington Model 7 .308 with Scout Scope that made the rounds of the gun shops around here several years ago. It had none of the other Cooper Scout appurtenances, but was definitely short and light and easy to shoot.
It finally dropped out of sight, apparently somebody got it who understood the system and kept it.
 
^^^Interesting, and I remember that one. Likely he was using it for urban pest control. If it was his personal rifle, watch out; he likely would be skilled in it's use.
Thank you for posting that.
 
It's not surprising that the Steyr has been seen used by irregular combatants, no different than the odd sporting rifle with a scope that we sent to the line in 1918. But there was no original intent on any serious level to have the Scout concept adopted by any military force. I mean really... No military in the world would arm anyone with a bolt action rifle for other than precision sniping. Yeah you could press a Steyr into service for that, but seriously... Nobody at the Scout Rifle Conferences was thinking about anything other than a good personal multipurpose rifle.

This is not supposition. It's first hand.


Willie

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It's obvious that you've not really studied the subject if you think this is a "defensive" rifle. It's a hunting rifle.
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No, it's a scout rifle.:neener:

I don't need to study it, I read the doggone description. It's all over the web. You're playing purist, yet it is by definition not a purists weapon. Cooper talked about using it in a defensive situation, therefore it is not supposed to be a hunting rifle only but rather something that covers all the bases. And again, it is a rather mediocre selection for a do-it-all gun unless you live in a ban-state.

Good luck using an AK in the environs where we can take Scouts.
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Not sure what you meant by that. I can take an AK anywhere you can take your scout rifle. At least, I can in the places I'm willing to live. It can do nearly everything your scout can and then some when it comes to rapid aimed fire under 300 meters. It is, simply put, a more versatile weapon, which is what Cooper was trying to do when he dreamed up the scout.
 
I do remember one article where Col. Cooper speculated on a military type application for the Scout Rifle. Basically, he felt the rifle could be used by a small group of highly trained men to scout an area and collect intelligence over the long term. The rifle was to be light and handy so the scout would keep it to hand at all times, a bolt action as to keep the scout from engaging the enemy unnecessarily yet have enough firepower when avoidance was impossible. It was my impression that the rifle would be ideal for groups scouting the bush for intel on terrs in Rhodesia and South Africa. Col. Cooper was a great admirer of South Africa.

The world of firearms was very different back then. M14s and Garands were king and homage was paid to the Springfield 03 and Mauser 98. SMLEs were cheap, Carcanos had faded into obscurity and the Mosin Nagant was nothing more than that "Russian piece of crap". ARs still suffered from their ill-fated debut in Vietnam although the a few smart Service Rifle shooters started dominating the competition with the A2s. The Scout Rifle as conceived made sense.

I think if Col. Cooper were alive today and were to start another Scout Rifle think tank, the result would be different but clearly a descendant of the original.

Whatever anyone thinks of the Scout Rifle, it left it's mark on the firearms world. It got everyone thinking of lighter, handier rifles and it's influence further reaching than anyone realizes
 
Cooper said, a time or two, that he didn't really want to take a shot at a game animal if it were out beyond 300 yards or so.

So look at what folks keep talking about, here: Light weight, for one thing. Recoil is then a bit of a problem. Okay, Limbsaver et al. All kinds of very bright optics, nowadays, whether conventional mount or forward.

The .308 works quite well from a relatively short barrel as compared to the somewhat overbore cartridges such as the .270 and '06.

Add it all up and you wind up fairly close to the "Cooper Concept Rifle". :D

Kinda like my 1970 Sako carbine, except it's .243. :D:D:D
 
Cooper did place a lot of emphasis on widely-available cartridges. In that vein, I noticed that during the post-Newtown ammo crisis, the calibers that were consistently on the shelves were mostly the hunting cartridges that are not also military cartridges and for which very few semi automatic rifles are chambered. Based on my informal study, the most commonly available were 7mm Rem Mag, .243, .270, 7mm-08, and .30-06. I noticed the same thing in the '08 crisis. I have thought it would be nice to have a bolt gun in one of these calibers sitting around just so I have something I can always find ammo for.

It is very possible that if things got to the point where you were bugging out for the wilderness and living off your Scout rifle, it is highly likely that there will be a similar ammo shortage in common military cartridges like .308. Just a thought.
 
To me, a short and handy but rugged bolt action makes a lot of sense. Basic cleaning is quick and easy, you can chamber them in a seemingly unlimited number of very powerful rounds without weight becoming excessive, and they are typically far less expensive than most semi-autos.

Part of the appeal of a scout or pseudo scout rifle is that it is very packable and portable, but chambered in an elk or moose capable round. I can't think of any semi-autos that have those characteristics.
 
You're All Spoiled

The Scout is a tacticool all-purpose bolt-action rifle. If everyone here didn't have as many guns as they do on average, so many for specific purposes but just one, in America it would SO be a Scout Rifle. No ability to go down to the corner and buy some new rifle on a whim. No having a golf-bag set of rifles in the closet. No "I need one in .280 Roberts too and not just .270 Win. No "collection." Just "a rifle"!

The Scout concept was old Jeff Cooper's answer to "if you could only have just one rifle" but the Moderators didn't get a chance to close his thread... The real gods did.

Jeff Cooper and the Scout Rifle concept was clearly not High Road. He was a closet prepper. Dare I say survivalist? He probably hoarded ammo!

:eek:

I have no doubt he'd be here today trying to start popular but unacceptable threads about having just one gun, maybe three in a WWROL or, heaven forbid, something referring to stupid Zombies.

And now this thread should be locked.

:p
 
Hence the reason my next rifle will be a 30-06, .308 is just now starting to come back.
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.308 has been back for quite a while, and never went away completely. I bought a GSR on December 30, 2012, a couple of weeks after Newtown, and over the next two to three months was able to stock up several hundred rounds of .308. At that time, it was in short supply, and you had to watch gunbot regularly to find it, but it was available. Supplies through gunbot have been abundant for some time now. Prices may only now be "starting to come back," but not the supply itself, which has "been back" for a while now.

Now, if you are talking about being able to walk into a store and find always find a box or two on the shelf, then maybe .30-06 is the way to go. Precisely because .308 is a military round, and used in many semi-autos, people probably buy much more of it per firearm than they do of .30-06, and thus tend to buy it more in bulk than do owners of .30-06. I only buy from local stores as a matter of convenience. The bulk of my purchases are over the Internet. I also ordered a Garand in .308 back in March, at the height of the recent madness. By then, my supply of .308 was approaching 1k rounds. Right now, I'm buying it as fast as I'm shooting it. I think .308 remains a viable round for a Scout rifle.
 
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