Will We Sit at the Table?

[R.W.Dale]

What are you talking about?

I'm addressing your proposing muzzling the media as a means of prevention.


Don't you see it as a bit hypocritical to eviscerate the first amendment yet hold the second sacred.







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[powder]

Yup, somebody (A Mod) in a separate thread tried to analyze a bunch of shooting sprees, as being other than the cases of a mentally ill person got hold a firearm. ..but, that's semi-OT...

Will we have a seat at the table? In all the hours of news coverage on TV today I did not see A SINGLE viewpoint of the NRA perspective at the table. 31 Pro-gun Senators were invited to go on Meet the Press today: they ALL declined.

What I DID hear/see was the majority of the conversation(s) about this were related to mental health issues. (Sound familiar?)

So, if you want to keep a seat at the table steer the NRA towards the issues of mental health care aspects, rather than just beating the 2A drum. 31 school shootings since Columbine. Time to get smart or learn to go without.

 

[Warp]

I'm addressing your proposing muzzling the media as a means of prevention.


Don't you see it as a bit hypocritical to eviscerate the first amendment yet hold the second sacred.

You're going to have to show me where I proposed that, because I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[k_dawg]

All they care about is making sure Friday's atrocities never are repeated.

No.

No they dont.

They want some fuzzy feel good "we did something!" instant gratification. So they can go back to their warm, comfortable sheeple lives.

They get that by blaming the scapegoat. In this case, 'evil guns'.

YOU feed that desire by trying to 'negotiate' over 'gun control'.

YOU justify their irrational knee-jerk emotional reaction by your proposals.

YOU are part of the problem in this society.

STOP acting like the problem is with lawful citizens.

STOP acting like the problem is with the guns themselves.


There are two fundmental ways to solve this issue:

1) a total absense of weapons in society.

2) LESS gun control on law abiding citizens. Go after the criminals instead.

 

[Warp]

No.

No they dont.

They want some fuzzy feel good "we did something!" instant gratification. So they can go back to their warm, comfortable sheeple lives.

They get that by blaming the scapegoat. In this case, 'evil guns'.

YOU feed that desire by trying to 'negotiate' over 'gun control'.

YOU justify their irrational knee-jerk emotional reaction by your proposals.

YOU are part of the problem in this society.

STOP acting like the problem is with lawful citizens.

STOP acting like the problem is with the guns themselves.


There are two fundmental ways to solve this issue:

1) a total absense of weapons in society.

2) LESS gun control on law abiding citizens. Go after the criminals instead.

1) What would that do for something like Oklahoma City or Bath, Michigan?

 

[k_dawg]

I'm not sure what you are asking about...but in the '94 AWB there was no exception for magazines >10 rounds simply due to the cartridge they were for

Yes/No. It was detachable magazines. Not fixed. Most of the classical lever actions are fixed tube magazines.

 

[k_dawg]

1) What would that do for something like Oklahoma City or Bath, Michigan?

You can't stop all crimes and heinous acts.

BUT you can most certainly stop heinous acts by the government against lawful citizens.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

Well, if all guns become banned, the scientist in me would like to see a ban that would last for one year and see how many schools are bombed or set on fire or driven through with a hummer. Where there is a will, there is a way. The solution is approaching the 'will' part of the equation.

Steer the debate onto the motivations of the killings and away from the methods.

 

[powder]

There are two fundmental ways to solve this issue:

1) a total absense of weapons in society.

2) LESS gun control on law abiding citizens. Go after the criminals instead.

See, here is the wrong tact to be taking, per these instances of school shootings in particular.

The shooters are/were mentally ill-they either have no respect for life, no understanding of right/wrong, are hearing voices in their heads and/or are seeing hallucinations, have sociopath/ anti-social belief systems, or a combo of all of the above. These shooters are a class all unto themselves within the realms of insanity.

They are not committing random acts of violence to support a drug habit-they are mentally incapable of living any longer, as they have in complete horror and fear. However, I fear it is too late to have such a reasonable discussion that actually might go towards common ground solutions.

 

[Sam1911]

If only the antis have a reply who do you guys think will get listed to?

"WE" do have good, sound, EFFECTIVE replies -- again, see post 223.

Now, we just have to get our talking heads to start hammering those agendas instead of dodging the press or "appeasing."

Be strong, and be bold.

 

[Sam1911]

The shooters are/were mentally ill-they either have no respect for life, no understanding of right/wrong, are hearing voices in their heads and/or are seeing hallucinations, have sociopath/ anti-social belief systems, or a combo of all of the above. These shooters are a class all unto themselves within the realms of insanity.

They are not committing random acts of violence to support a drug habit-they are mentally incapable of living any longer, as they have in complete horror and fear. However, I fear it is too late to have such a reasonable discussion that actually might go towards common ground solutions.

And...so...what? What is your plan?

 

[cskny]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerdoc
Crazy control not gun control
this ^^ and enforcing laws already in place, prohibition is proven useless

Right, but many folks here will go on to object to background checks on ALL transactions, one of the gaping holes in the ability to control 'crazy' (or illegals) buying weapons.

Even though they are not legally allowed they will. So how do you identify and prevent those crazy and illegals from purchasing guns if you don't force a check of who they are?

 

[Deanimator]

Even though they are not legally allowed they will. So how do you identify and prevent those crazy and illegals from purchasing guns if you don't force a check of who they are?

Why on earth should I trust THIS Justice Department (or any other for that matter) not to misuse the information or the process itself?

 

[Sam1911]

Right, but many folks here will go on to object to background checks on ALL transactions, one of the gaping holes in the ability to control 'crazy' (or illegals) buying weapons.

Even though they are not legally allowed they will. So how do you identify and prevent those crazy and illegals from purchasing guns if you don't force a check of who they are?

What does this have to do -- at ALL -- with the most recent tragedy?

None.

So you're falling into the same trap so many others seem to be: Let's do "something" to make everyone feel better, regardless of the unassailable fact that it would have done NOTHING AT ALL to stop or even reduce what happened.

That's bad logic, and worse law, and disgusting, insidious politics.

 

[R.W.Dale]

That's bad logic, and worse law, and disgusting, insidious politics.

And exactly how the political part of this discussion will take place in Washington

(See current debt reduction debate)





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[larryh1108]

We just heard the president speak from the town of the massacre. He had a look in his eyes and a resolve in his voice when he said he will take steps and use whatever power he has to help correct the mistakes that are a part of these tragedies. I have no idea what powers he has to put a moratorium on gun sales for X days until they figure out something. Can he do that? Can he declare that any semi-automatic weapon with a detachable magazine that can store more than 10 rounds be off limits for sale immediately pending an "investigation"? What can he do, as president, to immediately make Americans "feel good" and that he is "doing something" proactive? Does anybody know without guessing?

 

[Sam1911]

And exactly how the political part of this discussion will take place in Washington

Oh, very likely. It seems that's how every single issue of politics is played out -- in the media and public eye at least.

Doesn't mean we have to buy into it, or should EVER allow it to pass muster HERE.

 

[Sam1911]

Can he do that? Can he declare that any semi-automatic weapon with a detachable magazine that can store more than 10 rounds be off limits for sale immediately pending an "investigation"?

Nope. No way. He doesn't have that kind of power.

What can he do, as president, to immediately make Americans "feel good" and that he is "doing something" proactive? Does anybody know without guessing?

Very, very little. He can do press meetings, and get the usual "anits" in Congress to beat the drums a little bit. Make a lot of noise.

Then bills will be sent to committee and languish. Maybe we'll see one or two make it out for a vote, but by the time that happens most of the furor will have died down.

 

[Warp]

Right, but many folks here will go on to object to background checks on ALL transactions, one of the gaping holes in the ability to control 'crazy' (or illegals) buying weapons.

Even though they are not legally allowed they will. So how do you identify and prevent those crazy and illegals from purchasing guns if you don't force a check of who they are?

That wouldn't have done a damn thing to prevent this.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Then bills will be sent to committee and languish. Maybe we'll see one or two make it out for a vote, but by the time that happens most of the furor will have died down.

I think you're misjudging the impact of this one Sam.

Talking with "normal" non gun people and even gun owners over the past couple days I get the impression this is had as big an impact on citizens as 911 did.

This shooting is different, something will come from this one. Unless we are so numbed and accustomed to these shootings now that we as a country no longer care. Wich IMO is even sadder.






posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[Rocketmedic]

No.

No they dont.

They want some fuzzy feel good "we did something!" instant gratification. So they can go back to their warm, comfortable sheeple lives.

They get that by blaming the scapegoat. In this case, 'evil guns'.

YOU feed that desire by trying to 'negotiate' over 'gun control'.

YOU justify their irrational knee-jerk emotional reaction by your proposals.

YOU are part of the problem in this society.

STOP acting like the problem is with lawful citizens.

STOP acting like the problem is with the guns themselves.


There are two fundmental ways to solve this issue:

1) a total absense of weapons in society.

2) LESS gun control on law abiding citizens. Go after the criminals instead.

This is exactly why the gun-grabbers will win. I'm a gun owner and this is reprehensible.

 

[Warp]

This is exactly why the gun-grabbers will win. I'm a gun owner and this is reprehensible.

Yes. It is.

But what gun control law would prevent it???

 

[Sam1911]

This shooting is different, something will come from this one. Unless we are so numbed and accustomed to these shootings now that we as a country no longer care. Wich IMO is even sadder.

Or that we've realized that such things are very rare and, on the whole, unavoidable. When no one can come up with a solution for a problem, because there is no systemic underlying cause we can point to and combat, we are a foolish species to harm ourselves and our society in our attempts to fight that which cannot be fought.

 

[Deanimator]

But what gun control law would prevent it???

None, and they couldn't care less.

For them, a government monopoly on the means of armed force is an end in itself.

 

[larryh1108]

Sam, I feel the same way you do. I don't feel he can "rightfully" do anything but beat his chest.
HOWEVER,
This is the man who had his whole arm in Fast and Furious. This is a slippery man who can, has and will distort his powers to get his way. I do not trust this man. What if he declared all mass shootings as an act of terrorism (which it may be, in a way) and declare a war on mass shootings and pass an executive order halting the sales of any hi-cap semi-automatic weapon until the "investigation" into how these guns are used by these "terrorists" is concluded. It will be fought, of course, but by throwing his weight as president around he may just do something like this until he is told, by the courts, that he can't. He'll then use the time he bought to come up with other slippery ways to get his way. Do not underestimate what this man will do to get his way. He has proven to be less than upfront and honorable.