Will We Sit at the Table?

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This event has been reported in error since it happened. In the heat to be first, the media made up stuff as they went along. Initial reports was the gunman was 24 years old (he was 20, his brother is 24 but it's now said he had his brother's ID on him). It initially reported that the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school and he went and shot her and the students (now reported the mother was killed at home and does not work at the school). They reported that the gunman had a Glock and a Sig on him and a rifle in his vehicle. Reports now say all who were killed were killed with rifle rounds.

This is what is being reported by the media. Nothing reported was true yet the public is fed misinformation and then gets the knee-jerk reactions from false information.

How can we believe what the media says in the coming months about gun control measures when it's been proven that they cannot report actual news events accurately? The media is a major part of the problem by turning these shooters into faux celebrities. Those who choose to become famous by mass murder get their wishes because the media is too irresponsible because they want to be "first". First means what? First to be wrong?
 
My answer?

Put our national guard on our streets.. Many many countries have guard/military visible to the public. It wont stop it, but it might just give one or more cause to change their minds.
 
we are not amused

Very well said!

I would only add, get involved!
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Thanks. I hoped a couple at least would read what I posted. Glad to see a couple did. Rest assured the NRA has been running full tilt this weekend preparing for the onslaught. That is a very experienced organization and Wasington D.C. isn't that hard to figure out. The NRA and we all know what is coming aas of Monday morning. Most of it won't go anywhere, but it's still coming.

Like I said breath. TAke a moment and then roll up your sleeves.

Oh and I've already sent the e-mails to my reps. I've also made a couple phone calls. The nice thing for me is our reps in IDaho are very solid 2nd Amendment supporters. But I still have to be busy. Which is one reason why I became a Lifetime member of the NRA a couple years ago.
 
tarosean said:
My answer?

Put our national guard on our streets.. Many many countries have guard/military visible to the public. It wont stop it, but it might just give one or more cause to change their minds.
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No.

This is what civilian law enforcement is for.
 
Again you fail to grasp the fundamental difference between then and now.

THE FACTS WON'T MATTER.
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I agree that the facts won't matter. But I disagree that at some point THEY DID. They never have, because the underlying facts don't change. Gun control doesn't save lives now and it didn't then.

Something will be done to make those in charge of doing things feel like they've done something productive.
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Probably a whole lot of talking and then a lot of things valiantly being proposed and sent off to die in committee. Will something make it into law? Ehhhh....at this point after watching the last 20 years of changes in the public's view of guns and gun control? I wouldn't put any money on it.

You need to figure out what you do and don't want done in the process.
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We know what we don't want done. No further compromises -- enough all ready! I don't know if I could expect anything at all of my wish lists to come true, i.e. those things I "want done." And in the end, I'm not really sure it matters what I decide I want.

When everyone agrees to change policy the guy sitting at the end of the table saying the status quo is fine will be asked to leave.
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No way. If no one takes the hard line, then the center shifts away from us. If we stand on the hard line, the center falls closer to our goals. Without some very serious people saying "NO," we'll lose a lot of ground. Act like it's all our fault -- that we should be ashamed and culpable? That's a losing...no a LOST... battle. Stand up and FIGHT. NOW. If we hang our heads when someone does something heinous, we're owning their crime. DON'T accept it.

NOBODY in Washington is OK with that argument with 20 murdered kindergarten kids being the focus of the discussion
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And so what? What are we supposed to come up with then?

A set of compromises so daft as have been proposed here? Toughening CCW laws? Waiting periods? Other vapid ideas which have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the crime at hand? That's inane. That's pandering to the opposing side, ADMITTEDLY giving them something they want in order to pay them off and make them go away. Not even pretending that somehow it would have helped. We're above that, surely?
 
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No way. If no one takes the hard line, then the center shifts away from us. If we stand on the hard line, the center falls closer to our goals. Without some very serious people saying "NO," we'll lose a lot of ground. Act like it's all our fault -- that we should be ashamed and culpable? That's a losing...no a LOST... battel. Stand up and FIGHT. NOW. If we hang our heads when someone does something heinous, we're owning their crime. DON'T accept it.
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<applause.gif>

Indeed. I am not responsible for the actions of criminals and scum.
 
Sam that's exactly what we cannot do.

The discussion will center around the tragedy not your rights orgun control in general.

The other side will make proposals THEY FEEL prevent such shootings in the future.

As gun owners what are our proposals? The "don't pick on us" line will not cut it this time. Alan Gura is on guntalk right now saying this very thing.

What as a gun owning community are we going to do? If that answer is nothing then the matter will be decided for us. (And it looks like that will be the case reading this thread)




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
 
Part II -- So what, then?

What shall we propose to ACTUALLY ADDRESS this problem?

1) Promote carrying of weapons. Defense is the responsibility of the individual.
2) Eliminate "Gun-Free Zones"! Especially schools. They are a travesty and a lie. Remove them utterly.
3) Better and effective training of teachers to react to crises like this. We should make it abundantly clear that part of a teacher's sworn (Sworn? Sure, why not?) duty is to ensure the safety of their charges. As a teacher you will instruct -- AND YOU WILL PROTECT.
4) Allow teachers and school staff to be armed.
5) Armed guards at schools
6) Better/tighter security at schools

In the end though, I still feel it is only right that we keep in view the reality of such events. They are still vanishingly rare. More American kids die every single day in car accidents. They are not on the increase. This one event -- tragic though it is -- is not sufficient cause to spend billions of dollars on new programs*, alter anything substantive about how our society works, and/or to restrict the rights and freedoms of 300,000,000+ people. There are a thousand or ten thousand very bad things that happen to people every once in a while that are just too rare to worry about or to spend any extra money, time, or effort to prevent. While death is always tragic to those affected, we are far too often buffeted beyond all reason by the emotion-driven backlash that comes from putting these things in the spotlight as if they were serious risks to society as a whole.

* -- Except for one thing: If some new national program forced a significant segment of society to face the fact that serious risks to life and safety are absolutely real, and that they CAN, SHOULD, and even MUST face those dangers, confront them, and PREVAIL over them? Yeah, now THAT would be a positive social benefit perhaps worth the billions of dollars spent. Call it the "Flight 93" effect if you will.
 
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Sam1911 said:
Part II -- So what, then?

What shall we propose to ACTUALLY ADDRESS this problem?

1) Promote carrying of weapons. Defense is the responsibility of the individual.
2) Eliminate "Gun-Free Zones"! Especially schools. They are a travesty and a lie. Remove them utterly.
3) Better and effective training of teachers to react to crises like this. We should make it abundantly clear that part of a teacher's sworn (Sworn? Sure, why not?) duty is to ensure the safety of their charges. As a teacher you will instruct -- AND YOU WILL PROTECT.
4) Allow teachers and school staff to be armed.
5) Armed guards at schools
6) Better/tighter security at schools

In the end though, I still feel it is only right that we keep in view the reality of such events. They are still vanishingly rare. More American kids die every single day in car accidents. They are not on the increase. This one event -- tragic though it is -- is not sufficient cause to spend billions of dollars on new programs*, alter anything substantive about how our society works, and/or to restrict the rights and freedoms of 300,000,000+ people. There are a thousand or ten thousand very bad things that happen to people every once in a while that are just too rare to worry about or to spend any extra money, time, or effort to prevent. While death is always tragic to those affected, we are far too often buffeted beyond all reason by the emotion-driven backlash that comes from putting these things in the spotlight as if they were serious risks to society as a whole.
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I'm just a lowly welder from Arkansas. I don't know as a party and political element what we propose at this point.

But its glaringly obvious something will come from this and if we're not going to take part its going to do us about as much good sticking to principal as an armadillo standing in the road yelling STOP at a semi.

We need to steer this debate not deny it




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
 
Unfortunately, the politicians and American public want "something" to be done. What they will try to do is force some kind of change into the system so the public can feel appeased and the politicians can say they did something. The worst part is no matter what they wish to do, it will have nothing to do with what happened nor will it cease further tragedies. All it will do is appease the public into a false sense of security and a "feel good" reaction. That is why we need to be heard at the round table... to prevent useless infringements on our rights just to appease the people who are clueless about the situation and the real causes. The public wants something, anything, done to feel better. That is our biggest hurdle. Preventing useless legislation "just because".
 
But its glaringly obvious something will come from this
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I have to disagree. It's not obvious that additional gun restrictions will come out of this. If recent history is any guide, media attention will be short and the emotional knee-jerk reactions will fade. Remember this: to gun owners and RKBA proponents, gun restrictions are an existential issue, while to most gun-grabbers, it's a side issue. Intensity of convictions will always be on the side of the gun-rights proponents, and the smart politicians know this.
 
AlexanderA said:
I have to disagree. It's not obvious that additional gun restrictions will come out of this. If recent history is any guide, media attention will be short and the emotional knee-jerk reactions will fade. Remember this: to gun owners and RKBA proponents, gun restrictions are an existential issue, while to most gun-grabbers, it's a side issue. Intensity of convictions will always be on the side of the gun-rights proponents, and the smart politicians know this.
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I'm also of the opinion that we might end up being ok. We need to keep on keeping on, and keep the focus where it belongs, on the metal health issues, media, Antis exploiting the tragedy--that kind of stuff. There are already vocal public dissenters to the gun control people, and most websites I've looked have been dominated by pro gun comments. Last I looked even HuffPo had its fair share.

But we can't be complacent. Or god forbid, gloating.

And if we are able to do something that might help ID people like this before they get a chance to do something terrible that would be really great. They already nabbed some other nutcase planning a school attack. His plan was pistols followed by explosives. Guess what, he was "inspired" by columbine. Odd that I've never seen a media report on the possibility of the media helping to cause these things.
 
I can only hope that we, as Americans and gun owners, can put forward a better argument than the popular ones expressed here as to why our rights should be preserved. I'll be withdrawing from this argument, because moderation is clearly not a virtue on "The High Road".
 
We need to steer this debate not deny it
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"Steer it" HOW???

You won't say, and that makes your "argument" even more problematic.

If the same people wanted to repeal the 13th Amendment and reinstate slavery, I wouldn't "debate" them. My answer would be, as it is to the anti-gunners, "NO". There would be nothing to "debate" and UTTERLY nothing to "compromise".

Your refusal to go on the record while insisting that others do so leads me to believe that what you REALLY want is the equivalent of accepting SOME slavery.

Again, the answer is "NO".
 
Deanimator said:
"Steer it" HOW???

You won't say, and that makes your "argument" even more problematic.

If the same people wanted to repeal the 13th Amendment and reinstate slavery, I wouldn't "debate" them. My answer would be, as it is to the anti-gunners, "NO". There would be nothing to "debate" and UTTERLY nothing to "compromise".

Your refusal to go on the record while insisting that others do so leads me to believe that what you REALLY want is the equivalent of accepting SOME slavery.

Again, the answer is "NO".
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You mistakenly labor under the impressing that "anti gunners" who want to infringe upon all our Rights are the ONLY people that would be cognizant of a debate.

The fence sitters will make the determination.

Do you want the antis to be the only ones giving information to those fence sitters?

I don't
 
I can only hope that we, as Americans and gun owners, can put forward a better argument than the popular ones expressed here as to why our rights should be preserved.
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And I hope we don't shoot ourselves in the foot while tripping over ourselves in the attempt to accept blame for tragedies like this -- or to accept that feel good laws having no effect but to provide a placebo for a fearful society are appropriate response.

I'll be withdrawing from this argument, because moderation is clearly not a virtue on "The High Road".
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"If you don't agree with me you are wrong and unreasonable and I'm running away so I don't have to think hard and come up with logical defenses of my own theories."

That sounds very familiar. :scrutiny:
 
I have to agree with most of that. We need to see what is done first . But these things will keep happening & we must get ahead of the.antis ect. and be ready if they do propose more gun control. We are going to have to keep supporting pro gun groups & writing letters! We also need to bridge the gap we see here among ourselves! If we cannot come together as a group, how can we expect the anti gunners to take us! I cannot see how this will work out! But I do know we can agree that bickering about it on THR will not stop them or prepare us from what will come! Have a Happy Holidays ! :)
 
Do you want the antis to be the only ones giving information to those fence sitters?
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We need to put forward why there CAN'T be compromise with the enemies of individual liberty.

That's a FAR cry from what some here want. They don't want us to put forward OUR position. They want us to ADOPT the other side's fundamental assumptions and position. They want us to cut a "deal" that gives us NOTHING and the other side EVERYTHING on the installment plan.

Joe Kennedy Sr. wanted the same thing in 1940.

Petain got it. How'd that work out?

If somebody wants to beat me to death with an axe handle, the solution isn't for me to AGREE to LET him break one of my limbs every week, instead of all at once.
 
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