Will We Sit at the Table?

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I do not share your optimism on this Sam. I fear soon enough you'll come to not believe it either.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
 
I hope not, and I try not to be afraid.

Focus on real solutions and do whatever you can to help people you know see what is true and what is not. That's all we can do -- aside from filling the congress-critters' mailboxes, and sending as fat a check as we can afford to the NRA and SAF, of course.
 
Here is the latter part of the POTUS speech from a little while ago

"We can't tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to end them we must change. We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true. No single law, no set of laws, can eliminate evil from the world or prevent every senseless act of violence from our society. But that can't be an excuse for inaction. Surely we can do better than this. If there is even one step we can take to save another child, or another parent, or another town, from the grief that's visited, Touschon, and Aruorua, and Oak Creek, and Newtown, and communities from Columbine to Blacksburg before that, then surely we have an obligation to try. In the coming weeks I'll use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens from law enforcement, to mental health professionals, to parents and educators, in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this. Because what choice do we have? We can't accept events like this as routine. Are we really prepared to say that we're powerless in the face of such carnage? That the politics are too hard? Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year after year, is somehow the price of our freedom? *Long pause*

In all the world's religions, so many of them represented here today, start with a simple question. Why are we here? What gives our life meaning? What gives our acts purpose? We know our time on this earth is fleeting. We know that we will each have our share of pleasure and pain, that even after we chase after some earthly goal whether it's wealth or power or fame or just simple comfort, we will in some fashion fall short of what we had hoped. We know that no matter how good our intentions we'll all stumble some time in some way. We'll make mistakes. We'll experience hardships. And even when we're trying to do the right thing we know that much of our time will be spent groping through the darkness, so often unable to discern God's heavenly plans. Ther'es only one thing we can be sure of, and that is the love that we have. For our children, for our families, for each other. The warmth of a small child's embrace. The memories we have of them. The joy that they bring. The wonder we see through their eyes. That fierce and boundless love we feel for them. A love that takes us out of ourselves and binds us to something larger. We know that's what matters. We know we'ee always doing right when we're taking care of them. When we're teaching them well. When we're showing acts of kindness. And we dont' go wrong when we do that. And that's what we can be sure of. And that's wha tyou, the people of Newtown, have reminded us. That's how you've inspired us. You remind us what matters. That's what should drive us forward in everything we do, as long as God sees fit to keep us on this Earth. Let the little children come ot me Jesus said, and do not hinder them, for such belongs the Kingdom of Heaven. Charlotte, Daniel, Olivia, Josephine, Anna, Dillon, Madeline, Catherine, Chase, Jessie, James, Grace, Emily, Jack, Noah, Caroline, Jessica, Benjamin, ___, Allison. God has called them all home. For those of us who remain, let us find the strength to carry one and make our country worthy of their memory. May God bless and keep those we've lost in his heavely place. May he grace those we still have with holy comfort and may he bless and watch over this community and the United States of America."
 
What if he declared all mass shootings as an act of terrorism (which it may be, in a way) and declare a war on mass shootings and pass an executive order halting the sales of any hi-cap semi-automatic weapon until the "investigation" into how these guns are used by these "terrorists" is concluded. It will be fought, of course, but by throwing his weight as president around he may just do something like this until he is told, by the courts, that he can't. He'll then use the time he bought to come up with other slippery ways to get his way. Do not underestimate what this man will do to get his way. He has proven to be less than upfront and honorable.
IF any of the claims about his involvement with F&F are ever proven to be true, at the very least he's been extremely surreptitious about it. Coming out and trying to lay down an Executive Order like you're describing would be very blatant and really foolhardy. Who would abide by it? All the nations FFLs are going to stop selling that day just because he said so? UNFATHOMABLE. He doesn't have that power. They're going to send ... how many? ... ATF enforcement officers out to bust over 100,000 gun dealers in the US? That just doesn't make sense. Executive Orders are written to define what the President wants his Executive Branch agents to enforce or do in the areas where he has direct oversight. What kind of guns are legal or illegal to sell do NOT fall under his power to decide.
 
Here is the latter part of the POTUS speech from a little while ago
Now Warp, if you go posting stuff like that you're going to make me give myself a nasty note for violating THR's standards with my response! ;)
 
Until you realize that 'gun control' is neither about 'violence' nor about 'safety'; will you begin to realize the end-goal of the gun grabbers.

I dont think most of them think that way. All the Antis I have encountered are really just dog gone ignorant, and some are stubbornly ignorant purhaps even mentally deficient.

When we argue, are goal is not to convince the Antis, it is to make them look as foolish as they are, discredit them and convince those who are "on the fence".
 
All I know is I'm going to Wal*Mart tomorrow after work, buying a 6920, and putting it in the safe. Maybe 2.
 
IF any of the claims about his involvement with F&F are ever proven to be true, at the very least he's been extremely surreptitious about it. Coming out and trying to lay down an Executive Order like you're describing would be very blatant and really foolhardy. Who would abide by it? All the nations FFLs are going to stop selling that day just because he said so? UNFATHOMABLE. He doesn't have that power. They're going to send ... how many? ... ATF enforcement officers out to bust over 100,000 gun dealers in the US? That just doesn't make sense. Executive Orders are written to define what the President wants his Executive Branch agents to enforce or do in the areas where he has direct oversight. What kind of guns are legal or illegal to sell do NOT fall under his power to decide.

You know, terrorists using planes as weapons was unfathomable in the reality we lived in....until they did. Just saying what can be unfathomable one day may have low probability of happening every day until then it does happen.

Isn't this the same President that verbally attacked and belittled the US Supreme Court not too long ago? Who was he to politicize and disrespect an equal branch of our government? In a State of the Union no less.

And a question that someone at work pondered today...We've all seen revolutions taught in history as starting at the lowest levels of society? But are they really??


ETA: I'm not advocating anything. I'm just pondering the concept of UNFATHOMABLE.
 
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Their side:

Oh... This is so awful... After our candlelight vigil we should all work to be sure school are gun free zones.

Our side:

If someone comes here with evil intent they won't even have a chance to get started.

Which way is most likely to work?
 
When we argue, are goal is not to convince the Antis, it is to make them look as foolish as they are, discredit them and convince those who are "on the fence".
I've been doing this for more than twenty years, going back to the FidoNet days.

You can't convince a "movement" anti because their "beliefs" aren't fact based any more than a Holocaust denier's are.

What you CAN do is prove that they're lying. Observers really DO take notice of this.

Even better, you can make them show their real selves, and even more so, their REAL motivations. The level of racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and homophobia I discovered in anti-gunners in usenet was simply astonishing. I NEVER missed an opportunity to get them to reveal their REAL selves. It wasn't pretty and it had a real effect on the observers.
 
You know, terrorists using planes as weapons was unfathomable in the reality we lived in....until they did. Just saying what can be unfathomable one day may have low probability of happening every day until then it does happen.
Ok...I suppose that may be more or less true (though the idea of what was done on 9/11 was not completely unheard of).

But in this case better words might be "unlawful, unenforcable, non-starter, etc. He could come out tomorrow and say, "I hereby declare that all children must eat their spinach," but he has no authority to enforce such a thing and no agency is going to take that as their marching orders. He's not king. He has to at least appear to work within the powers the Constitution grants to his office.
 
In response to Warp:
On the books? None. By all accounts, many of these school shooters have clean records, and those that had sought help were not processed appropriately- in James Holmes's case, at least, there was clear evidence that danger was imminent. But that didn't matter. They had the guns, and worse for the frothing-mad 2nd Amendment crowd, they were legally obtained. Even in the case of Adam Landza, the weapons were legally obtained by his mother, and placed in a residence with an unstable young man. The fault here lay with the users, of course, but the current system allowed them to legally acquire their weapons. Worse, the current system would not necessarily have prevented them from acquiring their weapons even if they were undergoing treatment for mental illness (after all, they could have simply bought a firearm face-to-face). Would they be in violation of the law? Yes. Would they have been caught and prosecuted? Highly unlikely.

Every response here that yells that our current firearms law "would be effective if applied" is ignoring that it was applied and allowed every single one of these shooters to arm themselves, directly or indirectly. These crimes were not committed with Chinese AKs and IEDs as primary devices (yes, Holmes did build many explosives, but his resources and background made that a near-unstoppable incident once he decided to kill). They were committed with the same AR-15s, Glocks, and other high-capacity pistols that most of us have in our own homes. These sick people are not using illegally-obtained firearms. Notice that I used the liberal buzzword "high-capacity". There haven't been very many high-casualty school shootings in my lifetime with revolvers. (Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again. Tracing every American with mental illness, their treatment and their eligibility to own firearms predicates the existence of a police state that would dwarf the one existent. Frankly, controlling every potential psychopath is impossible with any semblance of freedom. The fact remains that high-capacity legal firearms are misused far more catastrophically than low-capacity firearms. We cannot prevent school shootings without the wholesale ban of firearms. However, we can mitigate them with restrictions on available firearms, ammunition capacities and stricter ownership requirements. "Oh, but people will just buy them illegally/make bombs/drive trucks into crowds". Guess what. It's far easier to survive a truck ramming a classroom then it is to survive an active shooter. It's far more complex than most people understand to make an effective explosive (once again, James Holmes is an exception. The majority of these shooters used off-the-shelf high-capacity magazines in unaltered firearms). No, they won't go buy higher-capacity magazines- they'll use the biggest ones available. I'd rather that be 10 than 30. "But it's the media." Lame excuse of an argument. You're telling me that you're going to go before the parents of Newport and tell them that it's MSNBC's fault that a psycopath with hundreds of bullets murdered their child? Good luck.

Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

My proposal stands as before, with one addition. Biometrics/RFID. Every gun sold will come with a trigger disconnect and a wireless connection to a pendant or card or something you would wear/carry while shooting it. If it's in range of your tag, it will function. If it's not in range of your tag, it won't. You could program housewide tags off of a WiFi modem for home-defense or range, or paradoxically could make gun-free school zones practical with override signals. Guns without this technology will be grandfathered in, but all new firearms will have them...and to encourage people to convert, guns that could be converted would have subsidized conversions to the biometric trigger.

I am not claiming that gun control is a panacea. I am not claiming that it will prevent gun crime, it will not. I am not saying the gun grabbers are right, because they are just as wrong as our extremists are. I'd rather have prohibitively-expensive 30-round magazines, commonly-available ten-round or less pistols, universal CCW and a clear, unambiguous Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms with far fewer and lower-casualty mass shootings than I would the status quo.

The side effects of better shooters, less ammo-wasting posers, and a more responsible and arms-conscious public are also net positives.
 
In response to Warp:
On the books? None. By all accounts, many of these school shooters have clean records, and those that had sought help were not processed appropriately- in James Holmes's case, at least, there was clear evidence that danger was imminent. But that didn't matter. They had the guns, and worse for the frothing-mad 2nd Amendment crowd, they were legally obtained. Even in the case of Adam Landza, the weapons were legally obtained by his mother, and placed in a residence with an unstable young man. The fault here lay with the users, of course, but the current system allowed them to legally acquire their weapons. Worse, the current system would not necessarily have prevented them from acquiring their weapons even if they were undergoing treatment for mental illness (after all, they could have simply bought a firearm face-to-face). Would they be in violation of the law? Yes. Would they have been caught and prosecuted? Highly unlikely.

Every response here that yells that our current firearms law "would be effective if applied" is ignoring that it was applied and allowed every single one of these shooters to arm themselves, directly or indirectly. These crimes were not committed with Chinese AKs and IEDs as primary devices (yes, Holmes did build many explosives, but his resources and background made that a near-unstoppable incident once he decided to kill). They were committed with the same AR-15s, Glocks, and other high-capacity pistols that most of us have in our own homes. These sick people are not using illegally-obtained firearms. Notice that I used the liberal buzzword "high-capacity". There haven't been very many high-casualty school shootings in my lifetime with revolvers. (Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again. Tracing every American with mental illness, their treatment and their eligibility to own firearms predicates the existence of a police state that would dwarf the one existent. Frankly, controlling every potential psychopath is impossible with any semblance of freedom. The fact remains that high-capacity legal firearms are misused far more catastrophically than low-capacity firearms. We cannot prevent school shootings without the wholesale ban of firearms. However, we can mitigate them with restrictions on available firearms, ammunition capacities and stricter ownership requirements. "Oh, but people will just buy them illegally/make bombs/drive trucks into crowds". Guess what. It's far easier to survive a truck ramming a classroom then it is to survive an active shooter. It's far more complex than most people understand to make an effective explosive (once again, James Holmes is an exception. The majority of these shooters used off-the-shelf high-capacity magazines in unaltered firearms). No, they won't go buy higher-capacity magazines- they'll use the biggest ones available. I'd rather that be 10 than 30. "But it's the media." Lame excuse of an argument. You're telling me that you're going to go before the parents of Newport and tell them that it's MSNBC's fault that a psycopath with hundreds of bullets murdered their child? Good luck.

Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

My proposal stands as before, with one addition. Biometrics/RFID. Every gun sold will come with a trigger disconnect and a wireless connection to a pendant or card or something you would wear/carry while shooting it. If it's in range of your tag, it will function. If it's not in range of your tag, it won't. You could program housewide tags off of a WiFi modem for home-defense or range, or paradoxically could make gun-free school zones practical with override signals. Guns without this technology will be grandfathered in, but all new firearms will have them...and to encourage people to convert, guns that could be converted would have subsidized conversions to the biometric trigger.

I am not claiming that gun control is a panacea. I am not claiming that it will prevent gun crime, it will not. I am not saying the gun grabbers are right, because they are just as wrong as our extremists are. I'd rather have prohibitively-expensive 30-round magazines, commonly-available ten-round or less pistols, universal CCW and a clear, unambiguous Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms with far fewer and lower-casualty mass shootings than I would the status quo.

The side effects of better shooters, less ammo-wasting posers, and a more responsible and arms-conscious public are also net positives.
No.
 
Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

Rockmedic I disagreee with you but you have the right to your opinion, and that is what makes our country great. I should have the right to own my AK and AR, you dont have to buy one. I want my 75 round mags, my burgers, my scotch, and my cigars. Do I need them? Well, yes damnit!!! What you are proposing infringes on MY rights. No one should tell me I cant have a 75 round magazine, just like I cant tell a gay man he cn not marry his mate, or a pot head he cant smoke pot. THIS IS THE LAND OF THE FREE, and I am for expanding liberty, NOT diminishing it.
 
Oh good grief, rocketmedic. Are you trying to be taken seriously? You sound like a Brady campaign poster child. "If we can just enact a very few completely pointless and ineffective changes then we can all feel better and believe we did something for the children..." :rolleyes:

Do you have any SINGLE proposal to share that hasn't been SHREDDED a hundred times over, just here on one gun-rights website?

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again.
I, as a rational, logical thinker realize that this tragic event is one tiny, isolated, event perpetrated by one person against 26 others out of 300,000,000+ citizens in this country. As horrible, and personally devastating as that is to those affected, making any policy change, spending large amounts of money, and infringing on the rights of the other 300 MILLION residents of this nation due to this event is ILLOGICAL and WRONG.
 
In response to Warp:
On the books? None. By all accounts, many of these school shooters have clean records, and those that had sought help were not processed appropriately- in James Holmes's case, at least, there was clear evidence that danger was imminent. But that didn't matter. They had the guns, and worse for the frothing-mad 2nd Amendment crowd, they were legally obtained. Even in the case of Adam Landza, the weapons were legally obtained by his mother, and placed in a residence with an unstable young man. The fault here lay with the users, of course, but the current system allowed them to legally acquire their weapons. Worse, the current system would not necessarily have prevented them from acquiring their weapons even if they were undergoing treatment for mental illness (after all, they could have simply bought a firearm face-to-face). Would they be in violation of the law? Yes. Would they have been caught and prosecuted? Highly unlikely.

Every response here that yells that our current firearms law "would be effective if applied" is ignoring that it was applied and allowed every single one of these shooters to arm themselves, directly or indirectly. These crimes were not committed with Chinese AKs and IEDs as primary devices (yes, Holmes did build many explosives, but his resources and background made that a near-unstoppable incident once he decided to kill). They were committed with the same AR-15s, Glocks, and other high-capacity pistols that most of us have in our own homes. These sick people are not using illegally-obtained firearms. Notice that I used the liberal buzzword "high-capacity". There haven't been very many high-casualty school shootings in my lifetime with revolvers. (Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again. Tracing every American with mental illness, their treatment and their eligibility to own firearms predicates the existence of a police state that would dwarf the one existent. Frankly, controlling every potential psychopath is impossible with any semblance of freedom. The fact remains that high-capacity legal firearms are misused far more catastrophically than low-capacity firearms. We cannot prevent school shootings without the wholesale ban of firearms. However, we can mitigate them with restrictions on available firearms, ammunition capacities and stricter ownership requirements. "Oh, but people will just buy them illegally/make bombs/drive trucks into crowds". Guess what. It's far easier to survive a truck ramming a classroom then it is to survive an active shooter. It's far more complex than most people understand to make an effective explosive (once again, James Holmes is an exception. The majority of these shooters used off-the-shelf high-capacity magazines in unaltered firearms). No, they won't go buy higher-capacity magazines- they'll use the biggest ones available. I'd rather that be 10 than 30. "But it's the media." Lame excuse of an argument. You're telling me that you're going to go before the parents of Newport and tell them that it's MSNBC's fault that a psycopath with hundreds of bullets murdered their child? Good luck.

Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

My proposal stands as before, with one addition. Biometrics/RFID. Every gun sold will come with a trigger disconnect and a wireless connection to a pendant or card or something you would wear/carry while shooting it. If it's in range of your tag, it will function. If it's not in range of your tag, it won't. You could program housewide tags off of a WiFi modem for home-defense or range, or paradoxically could make gun-free school zones practical with override signals. Guns without this technology will be grandfathered in, but all new firearms will have them...and to encourage people to convert, guns that could be converted would have subsidized conversions to the biometric trigger.

I am not claiming that gun control is a panacea. I am not claiming that it will prevent gun crime, it will not. I am not saying the gun grabbers are right, because they are just as wrong as our extremists are. I'd rather have prohibitively-expensive 30-round magazines, commonly-available ten-round or less pistols, universal CCW and a clear, unambiguous Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms with far fewer and lower-casualty mass shootings than I would the status quo.

The side effects of better shooters, less ammo-wasting posers, and a more responsible and arms-conscious public are also net positives.

No.
 
My proposal stands as before, with one addition.
My utter refusal stands.

I'm a liberal. There's NOTHING "liberal" about gun control. It's the nihilistic attempt to create an absolute government monopoly on the means of armed force. That is NEVER for a good reason, no matter how many lies the proponents tell.

Gun control is the ultimate expression of love of government power for its own sake. Love of government is the root of all genocide.

If I can't be trusted with a thirty round magazine, certainly Lon Horiuchi, Tony Abbate and Justin Volpe can't. Why do you trust Daniel Harless with a fifteen round pistol? Because he gets a government paycheck and NO other reason. The "divine right of kings" has been replaced by "the divine right of unaccountable gun toting government employees".

Again I say, "NO, I REFUSE." Don't like that? Come make it stick.
 
(Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

You need ABSOLUTLY NO ID or proof of age to buy a blackpowder gun. You cna get them sent to your house. Lets take away ALL the "assault weapons" (hypothetically), what is to stop one of thes nuts to strap 12 colt navys to their chest and go to town?
 
Rocketmedic while I don't agree with your proposals in their entirety I don't necessarily disagree with all of them either.

More importantly is the fact that you've made them and that we as a community discuss these matters and reach a consensus on a set of proposals we can by in large support.

The time for parroting the "we're not the problem" mantra has come and gone. Like it or not the guns we lawfully enjoy for peaceable purposes ARE a part of the problem. To state otherwise is pure denial.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
 
Originally Posted by Rocketmedic
In response to Warp:
On the books? None. By all accounts, many of these school shooters have clean records, and those that had sought help were not processed appropriately- in James Holmes's case, at least, there was clear evidence that danger was imminent. But that didn't matter. They had the guns, and worse for the frothing-mad 2nd Amendment crowd, they were legally obtained. Even in the case of Adam Landza, the weapons were legally obtained by his mother, and placed in a residence with an unstable young man. The fault here lay with the users, of course, but the current system allowed them to legally acquire their weapons. Worse, the current system would not necessarily have prevented them from acquiring their weapons even if they were undergoing treatment for mental illness (after all, they could have simply bought a firearm face-to-face). Would they be in violation of the law? Yes. Would they have been caught and prosecuted? Highly unlikely.

Every response here that yells that our current firearms law "would be effective if applied" is ignoring that it was applied and allowed every single one of these shooters to arm themselves, directly or indirectly. These crimes were not committed with Chinese AKs and IEDs as primary devices (yes, Holmes did build many explosives, but his resources and background made that a near-unstoppable incident once he decided to kill). They were committed with the same AR-15s, Glocks, and other high-capacity pistols that most of us have in our own homes. These sick people are not using illegally-obtained firearms. Notice that I used the liberal buzzword "high-capacity". There haven't been very many high-casualty school shootings in my lifetime with revolvers. (Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again. Tracing every American with mental illness, their treatment and their eligibility to own firearms predicates the existence of a police state that would dwarf the one existent. Frankly, controlling every potential psychopath is impossible with any semblance of freedom. The fact remains that high-capacity legal firearms are misused far more catastrophically than low-capacity firearms. We cannot prevent school shootings without the wholesale ban of firearms. However, we can mitigate them with restrictions on available firearms, ammunition capacities and stricter ownership requirements. "Oh, but people will just buy them illegally/make bombs/drive trucks into crowds". Guess what. It's far easier to survive a truck ramming a classroom then it is to survive an active shooter. It's far more complex than most people understand to make an effective explosive (once again, James Holmes is an exception. The majority of these shooters used off-the-shelf high-capacity magazines in unaltered firearms). No, they won't go buy higher-capacity magazines- they'll use the biggest ones available. I'd rather that be 10 than 30. "But it's the media." Lame excuse of an argument. You're telling me that you're going to go before the parents of Newport and tell them that it's MSNBC's fault that a psycopath with hundreds of bullets murdered their child? Good luck.

Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

My proposal stands as before, with one addition. Biometrics/RFID. Every gun sold will come with a trigger disconnect and a wireless connection to a pendant or card or something you would wear/carry while shooting it. If it's in range of your tag, it will function. If it's not in range of your tag, it won't. You could program housewide tags off of a WiFi modem for home-defense or range, or paradoxically could make gun-free school zones practical with override signals. Guns without this technology will be grandfathered in, but all new firearms will have them...and to encourage people to convert, guns that could be converted would have subsidized conversions to the biometric trigger.

I am not claiming that gun control is a panacea. I am not claiming that it will prevent gun crime, it will not. I am not saying the gun grabbers are right, because they are just as wrong as our extremists are. I'd rather have prohibitively-expensive 30-round magazines, commonly-available ten-round or less pistols, universal CCW and a clear, unambiguous Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms with far fewer and lower-casualty mass shootings than I would the status quo.

The side effects of better shooters, less ammo-wasting posers, and a more responsible and arms-conscious public are also net positives.

Give us a break...

Speak for yourself...
 
After participation and reading of this thread I have little hope we'll come out of this without loosing our shirt.





I think I'll buy that savage mkII tomorrow instead of a 10/22




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
 
In response to Warp:
On the books? None. By all accounts, many of these school shooters have clean records, and those that had sought help were not processed appropriately- in James Holmes's case, at least, there was clear evidence that danger was imminent. But that didn't matter. They had the guns, and worse for the frothing-mad 2nd Amendment crowd, they were legally obtained. Even in the case of Adam Landza, the weapons were legally obtained by his mother, and placed in a residence with an unstable young man. The fault here lay with the users, of course, but the current system allowed them to legally acquire their weapons. Worse, the current system would not necessarily have prevented them from acquiring their weapons even if they were undergoing treatment for mental illness (after all, they could have simply bought a firearm face-to-face). Would they be in violation of the law? Yes. Would they have been caught and prosecuted? Highly unlikely.

Every response here that yells that our current firearms law "would be effective if applied" is ignoring that it was applied and allowed every single one of these shooters to arm themselves, directly or indirectly. These crimes were not committed with Chinese AKs and IEDs as primary devices (yes, Holmes did build many explosives, but his resources and background made that a near-unstoppable incident once he decided to kill). They were committed with the same AR-15s, Glocks, and other high-capacity pistols that most of us have in our own homes. These sick people are not using illegally-obtained firearms. Notice that I used the liberal buzzword "high-capacity". There haven't been very many high-casualty school shootings in my lifetime with revolvers. (Yes, there's been far too many shootings, even school shootings, with revolvers in the last 24 years, but Columbine, VT, and Sandy Hook were notably not revolver-using crimes).

I, as a gun owner, realize that this massacre of children should change our attitudes towards firearms to prevent this from occurring again. Tracing every American with mental illness, their treatment and their eligibility to own firearms predicates the existence of a police state that would dwarf the one existent. Frankly, controlling every potential psychopath is impossible with any semblance of freedom. The fact remains that high-capacity legal firearms are misused far more catastrophically than low-capacity firearms. We cannot prevent school shootings without the wholesale ban of firearms. However, we can mitigate them with restrictions on available firearms, ammunition capacities and stricter ownership requirements. "Oh, but people will just buy them illegally/make bombs/drive trucks into crowds". Guess what. It's far easier to survive a truck ramming a classroom then it is to survive an active shooter. It's far more complex than most people understand to make an effective explosive (once again, James Holmes is an exception. The majority of these shooters used off-the-shelf high-capacity magazines in unaltered firearms). No, they won't go buy higher-capacity magazines- they'll use the biggest ones available. I'd rather that be 10 than 30. "But it's the media." Lame excuse of an argument. You're telling me that you're going to go before the parents of Newport and tell them that it's MSNBC's fault that a psycopath with hundreds of bullets murdered their child? Good luck.

Frankly, THR, I'm tired of hearing the standard right-wing squabbling that so many of you hoist high. I don't particularly care that y'all shoot Three-Gun and just can't adjust the rules to accomodate ten or fifteen-round magazines, bullet buttons or stripper clips. I don't particularly care that your rifle must have a cyclic rated to dump a pound of lead downrange in less than ten seconds. I don't particularly care that your CCW pistol needs to have enough rounds on-tap to kill a fire team with no reloads. Guess what? People have misused guns, specifically high-capacity ones, and it's time that we adjust our attitudes and clean house before it's cleaned for us.

My proposal stands as before, with one addition. Biometrics/RFID. Every gun sold will come with a trigger disconnect and a wireless connection to a pendant or card or something you would wear/carry while shooting it. If it's in range of your tag, it will function. If it's not in range of your tag, it won't. You could program housewide tags off of a WiFi modem for home-defense or range, or paradoxically could make gun-free school zones practical with override signals. Guns without this technology will be grandfathered in, but all new firearms will have them...and to encourage people to convert, guns that could be converted would have subsidized conversions to the biometric trigger.

I am not claiming that gun control is a panacea. I am not claiming that it will prevent gun crime, it will not. I am not saying the gun grabbers are right, because they are just as wrong as our extremists are. I'd rather have prohibitively-expensive 30-round magazines, commonly-available ten-round or less pistols, universal CCW and a clear, unambiguous Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms with far fewer and lower-casualty mass shootings than I would the status quo.

The side effects of better shooters, less ammo-wasting posers, and a more

What was the magazine capacity of the firearms used in CT?
 
Like it or not the guns we lawfully enjoy for peaceable purposes ARE a part of the problem. To state otherwise is pure denial.
Don't make me trot out the old "Rosie O'Donnell's Spoon" maxim on you!
 
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