Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.

I never got them either. I was always told that the scope was mounted forward to allow for stripper clips to be used, and of course anything mounted that far forward is limited to around 2x.

I think for someone who came up in an environment where bolt actions with iron sights were the standard issue infantry weapon, a scout rifle would be judged a serious upgrade. Stripper clips were key to bolt actions being used in place of semi automatics, so any attempt to put optics on one would have to preserve that ability, which means either forward or to the side.

It's also important to realize that scopes of that period were about 4x max. So a 2x scope mounted forward might have been preferable to a 3-4x scope canted to the side. One problem with the concept is that scopes are heavy, and the last thing you want to do is take a heavy optic and mount it out where its weight is multiplied. You end up with a rifle that's too low powered, magnification wise, to be considered a precision instrument, yet it's too unbalanced and unwieldy for quick offhand shots.

Another issue is whether a 2x scope is substantially better than iron sights, or nowadays a red dot. I've played around with 2x optics and I just don't see the point. I wouldn't mind having one for handgun hunting at relatively close range, but for defensive applications I think they're terrible.

I don't know much about the history of the scout concept, or exactly when it first came about, but my gut tells me it was developed by people who were simply behind the times, who were still stuck in bolt action stripper clip mentality in a world that was going detachable box fed automatic.

I like the idea of the Scout Rifle. And I think from what I have read and heard from two people who I understand were involved in the original group that Cooper put together to consider the subject, the idea is what was really important to Cooper, so this discussion honors the idea. For me, a ghost ring sighted 30-30 marlin or my similarly sighted Krag sporter meet the criteria, in that 300 yards exceed the distance at which the concept makes sense, for me. I like the Scout-Thumper nexus that Ruger has with the 450 BM now too.

And, If it is an alternative to the ubiquitous fiddlestick AR, even in the glorified 30-30 that is 308 Winchester, I'm all for it.

chicharrones said:

I guess I'll keep what I already have, then.

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That's how the Lee Enfield I posted (#28) a picture of came to be. I picked the rifle up just after I graduated from High School because I thought it looked cool. It started out as a No. I Mk. III from Ishapore in 1942. It was reworked by the people at Golden State Arms an d imported as a "Santa Fe Carbine" sometime after WWII. In the intervening years it had a lot of Bubba love which left it lacking in a decent rear sight. For a long time it was my trunk/truck gun and never really seriously shot that much. I messed with it enough to set up a ghost ring that I could hit fairly well until a few years ago. Then I decided to do the scout thing with it and now it shoots fairly well.

chicharrones said:

And, If it is an alternative to the ubiquitous fiddlestick AR, even in the glorified 30-30 that is 308 Winchester, I'm all for it.

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NICE!

grampajack said:

anything mounted that far forward is limited to around 2x.

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Actually, my Ruger GSR in .308 Win has a lightweight 4x Weaver mounted up front, and my 6.5 Creedmore Ruger GSR has a Leatherwood 2-7x variable mounted forward. Personally, I kinda like the "do-all" rifle concept. The Creedmore has the green digital camo lightweight synthetic stock and I plan on hunting with it this year. Makes a good stalking rifle for still hunting in the deep woods and ridges around me.

Crowman said:

Actually, my Ruger GSR in .308 Win has a lightweight 4x Weaver mounted up front, and my 6.5 Creedmore Ruger GSR has a Leatherwood 2-7x variable mounted forward. Personally, I kinda like the "do-all" rifle concept. The Creedmore has the green digital camo lightweight synthetic stock and I plan on hunting with it this year. Makes a good stalking rifle for still hunting in the deep woods and ridges around me.

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Apparently there have been recent advancements in scope technology. The 4x I can almost believe, depending on how far forward it is, but the 2-7x I'm having trouble with.

mokin said:

View attachment 761648

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mokin said:

That's how the Lee Enfield I posted (#28) a picture of came to be. I picked the rifle up just after I graduated from High School because I thought it looked cool. It started out as a No. I Mk. III from Ishapore in 1942. It was reworked by the people at Golden State Arms an d imported as a "Santa Fe Carbine" sometime after WWII. In the intervening years it had a lot of Bubba love which left it lacking in a decent rear sight. For a long time it was my trunk/truck gun and never really seriously shot that much. I messed with it enough to set up a ghost ring that I could hit fairly well until a few years ago. Then I decided to do the scout thing with it and now it shoots fairly well.

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I've always admired those short Lee Enfields. Nice rifle.

I've enjoyed this thread. I liked reading Cooper's stuff and miss his notes. I often disagreed with him, but found his writing entertaining and thought provoking.

I was initially interested in the scout concept, but my interest waned fairly quickly. I mounted a scout scope on a Marlin 336 Texan using an XS mount. It was handy and quick on target. But for hunting in PA, where there are antler restrictions, the 2.5X just didn't cut it when trying to count points. And it wasn't practical to count points with my binoculars and then switch to the rifle when hunting the thick stuff. If you have sufficient time for that, you don't need the fast-on-target pointability of the scout scope.

So I punted. My "scout" (or general purpose) rifle is a Model 7 in .308 with a Leupold 2-7X compact mounted in the conventional position. It fits me well and gets on target quickly. Meets my needs and I'm happy.

I did have opportunity to shoot a friend's Steyr Scout, and I was impressed by the quality of the gun. I did like the detachable magazine with the spare in the stock. But as noted in another thread, I've never needed more than two shots to bring down a game animal, so don't feel the need for a DM in a lightweight hunting rifle. Nevertheless, a Steyr in .260 Remington or 6.5 CM with a compact variable scope in the conventional location would make a dandy lightweight hunting rig!

I have a southpaw stainless Ruger GSR that I picked up a couple years ago. After putzing with a couple different scopes and the XS rail, I settled on a Leupold VX-2 1.5-4x Intermediate Eye Relief (IER) scope in low Warne QD rings mounted on the factory rail.



I like this setup for these reasons:

1. The scope is as close to the boreline as it can be and works well with the height of the factory stock's comb. I find that I can mount the rifle and acquire my target very quickly with both eyes open.

2. The scope can be easily removed if necessary, with the excellent factory irons available as a backup.

3. The ocular bell is far enough forward to eliminate any chance of "scope eye," and also provides plenty of clearance for rapid bolt manipulation. In contrast, when I had a conventionally mounted scope I smacked my knuckles on it.

4. The scope isn't so far forward that it messes with the balance of the rifle, nor is it as vulnerable to the glare problems LER scopes are susceptible to, when the sun is at your back.

5. Overall, the rifle is a light and handy package. (According to purists the GSR is overweight for a true scout. To me, it's light in comparison to my No.4 Mk.I that was my first CF bolt action rifle.)

It cannot be loaded with stripper clips but the detachable magazines make that moot, IMO.

If I could make one major change to my Ruger GSR, I'd like for it to be chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington, for lighter recoil. Heck, even .243 Winchester would suffice for my needs. Yes, .308 is available everywhere, but since I buy or reload ammo in bulk and don't travel to exotic locations, I don't have any need for finding resupply in some far off locale. What I really need to do is come up with a load pushing a 165 grain bullet at around 2400 FPS. This would be more pleasant to shoot than full house .308 but still be plenty effective on Pennsylvania white tails.

I'm also thinking about replacing the M-1907 sling with a more modern, quickly adjustable design. I do not want to mess with a three point sling but a quickly adjutable two point sling would be handy for both carrying and as a shooting aide.

Dave,

Nice rifle, even if it is built backwards. Now there is a left handed compliment for you........

I rather like your solution on the scope issues, given the removable mag.

I would bet Jane (Barbarella, the enemy AA gunner) Fonda wishes Ted Turner had given her a rifle set up like your's before she joined the half moon club while trying to shoot Bambi's Mother over in Jefferson County a couple of decades back.

-kBob

Dave Markowitz said:

I have a southpaw stainless Ruger GSR that I picked up a couple years ago. After putzing with a couple different scopes and the XS rail, I settled on a Leupold VX-2 1.5-4x Intermediate Eye Relief (IER) scope in low Warne QD rings mounted on the factory rail.

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That might be just about the perfect scope for the Ruger GSR. I'll put one on my want list.

Creature said:

Jeff Cooper, when he came up with the scout rifle concept, had obviously forgotten that the 30-30 Win94 existed.

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I assure you he did NOT forget it ! I was around when he was asked that and he liked the 30-30 but not so much the 1894 action. I once took a carbine course with Louis Awerbuck showing up with a marlin lever and an M1 carbine. I used the Marlin till my thumb about fell off by lunch , then continued very happily with the M1 Carbine. When I was in Col. Coopers vault, poking around right before he passed , I found a real cute Krag 30-40 scout and piles of ammo for it. He was pursuing that as a concept, mostly for the magazine, and the moderate but potent caliber with an excellent extraction system . I also handled the lionscout , I prefer my .35 REemington 600 carbine with Leupold 1-4x on it in QG Warne mounts. The lions are small around here

One of the primary features of the Scout Rifle concept is weight. An AR-10 in 308 with 16" barrel weighs eight to ten pounds. Add a pound or so for the scope, eight ounces for the sling, and another pound or two for a few empty magazines and you get over 11 pounds. A scout rifle is supposed to weigh 6.6 to 7.7 pounds, with 6.6 pounds being optimal.

They are very different rifles. I'll put up with the AR-10's weight because I like it, but the 6.6 pound Scout Rifle for hunting seems to be a really good idea.

The problem is making weight. The Ruger GSR with 16" barrel weighs in at 7.1 pounds. The right handed version has a polymer stock available to drop the weight even more. The gun should make weight

I too have been aware of the scout rifle concept pretty much since the idea was first advanced by Jeff Cooper.

Today, I look back on it and think that probably how the whole thing got started was, a group of gun guys were sitting around having a few drinks and the subject of what gun you would want if you could only have one gun. This was long before internet gun forums although these same type of subjects are discussed today on countless gun forums. You can see the response right here, on this thread.

Cooper wanted one rifle that would do everything. It wouldn't out perform any rifle specifically built for the one task at hand, but it could get by if you wern't standing in front of a safe full of rifles that you could pick from like a set of golf clubs so that you had a perfect rifle for every scenario. And, after talking about it and thinking about it, he built it.

I agree that in today's world, there are far better options for optics that sort of serve the same type of purpose as what he was trying to do with the forward mounted scope. As most know, he wanted something that was very fast to the target, something that was mounted away from your face so you had good periferal vision (the scope wasn't blocking your vision)......................... In my opinion, the same thing we do today with forward mounted red dots.

I never owned a scout rifle. As close as I came was putting a forward mounted scope on two lever action rifles I own (they are still like that today). I personally never really got into it and if I was actually going to use the rifles for anything other than shooting at the range, I would replace the "scout scopes" with a red dot.

tomrkba said:

One of the primary features of the Scout Rifle concept is weight. An AR-10 in 308 with 16" barrel weighs eight to ten pounds. Add a pound or so for the scope, eight ounces for the sling, and another pound or two for a few empty magazines and you get over 11 pounds. A scout rifle is supposed to weigh 6.6 to 7.7 pounds, with 6.6 pounds being optimal.

They are very different rifles. I'll put up with the AR-10's weight because I like it, but the 6.6 pound Scout Rifle for hunting seems to be a really good idea.

The problem is making weight. The Ruger GSR with 16" barrel weighs in at 7.1 pounds. The right handed version has a polymer stock available to drop the weight even more. The gun should make weight

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Bingo ! While never part of a forager/scout unit , I was ready for it as I back packed Big Sur/ Diablo Range for 20 years total. Killed pigs till I stopped and all ways got my deer. I went with other VN vets mostly and this was our form of PTS group therapy. It is so blasted hot and nasty in those mountains that I gave thanks to G-d in 1979 when Chet Brown showed me a 6 pound shaved 600 Remington conversion he did. Kevlar was PRICEY then but really really good in the hills ! A soda straw barrel, Magnaported and sprayed with a shadow camo acrylic over the whole rig I put a 2.5-8x 36mm Leupold on it in the fabricated from Bushnell aluminum QD ring mount system Chet used to cobble up to get a scoped very accurate for at least 5 rapid shot .308 down under 6 pounds empty. .

I freely admit, I don't understand the Scout Rifle. I have tried and failed.

I have asked myself, "For what circumstances or conditions would I INDEPENDENTLY design a rifle like this?" I've never been able to imagine conditions where I would be led to that concept.

Vern Humphrey said:

I freely admit, I don't understand the Scout Rifle. I have tried and failed.

I have asked myself, "For what circumstances or conditions would I INDEPENDENTLY design a rifle like this?" I've never been able to imagine conditions where I would be led to that concept.

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The vets I used to cruise those Diablo coastal ranges with in Ventana Wilderness carried various tools . The younger non VN vet guy but reserves Ranger had a Colt Sporter Car , a 5.7 pound wonder that was responsible for me giving the AR platform another look after my VN experience. That brought to 21st century will I go out with FWIW. Another guy, the Carmel Valley cowboy type who was a grunt in the Delta; had a 25-35 1894 that he bought from me when I left my position of ranch foreman of a Big Sur ranch. Believe me that is one deadly sucker to around 400 yards on deer sized game, it had a Lyman Tang sight which acts as a diopter stop to view the semi Buck horn elevator sight. The gun was excellent condition from late 40s. another guy had a 6.5x55 Swedish model 94 bubba Carbine , he reloaded his own ammo , but at my urging he had Norma 160s on our extended back country deer hunts on the eastern side of devils peak which on the Eastern slope became White Rock gun club , where the elite jeep hunted . He had recently received a silver star for heroism in a public ceremony at fort ord a few years after he was out of the Army. He was an Oky boy and a crack shot with that Swede Be supprised to see the herds the Jeep would drive up to us. . I carried at first an HK 93 collapsable in 5.56 with an issue type Hensoldt QC scope . It weighed about 8lb. and change and of course I humped 5 mags for it After a couple years of such in later 70s I got that 6 pound scoped .308 Brown Precision High Country Ultra Light and never looked back for about 5 years. I used 150 Nosler Ballistic tips reloads at 2700 fps or Winchester 150 Silvertips, so they would know who shot what We would kit out with our backpacking stuff at around 50-60 pounds for 3-5 days . Allways up hill and 100 degrees. Thats what Scout rifles are for I think

Vern Humphrey said:

I freely admit, I don't understand the Scout Rifle. I have tried and failed.

I have asked myself, "For what circumstances or conditions would I INDEPENDENTLY design a rifle like this?" I've never been able to imagine conditions where I would be led to that concept.

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I dunno...maybe Cooper and co saw forward mounted scopes in action somewhere. Red dots were not viable at the time.

Vern Humphrey said:

I freely admit, I don't understand the Scout Rifle. I have tried and failed.

I have asked myself, "For what circumstances or conditions would I INDEPENDENTLY design a rifle like this?" I've never been able to imagine conditions where I would be led to that concept.

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Neither can lots of other people. It's just another marketing attempt to sell us something we don't have any use for. I didn't buy one but I like the idea enough to attempt to build one. To me it's nothing more than a mag fed compact LW bolt rifle with a compact optic under 7 lbs. I think the market is growing for a rifle like that. I've built my own for less than $500. Try that with an AR.

I prefer hunting via spot and stalk. Sure I spot across wide open prairie or across coulees, but the shots I take are typically 20-75 yards in woods and/or tall grasses. But between those spotting and shooting locations, I hump up and down through all kinds of terrain. Then my best shot may be with only a few minutes of legal hunting light left and at a range of 350 yards.

Sounds like a ~6 lb rifle with the capability of close to long range shots comes into play...hence why the Scout concept and I are in love...

tomrkba said:

I dunno...maybe Cooper and co saw forward mounted scopes in action somewhere. Red dots were not viable at the time.

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The only red dots in use at the time were the Armson occluded eye type and very early Aimpoints from Sweden with no US dealers. Delta Force did fool with all kinds of stuff around the time - the famous prisoner snatches used the technology and Col. Cooper was teacher for many of these guys and others.I know the story how they cobbled up the 2x Leupold pistol scope on 600 Remington Carbines at Gunsite and shot enough to be very familar with the combo. The shooting of skeet by trainers with the thing impressed the hell out of the students !

CoalTrain49 said:

I didn't buy one but I like the idea enough to attempt to build one.

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Do it. I'd like to see how it turns out.

Plainsman said:

I prefer hunting via spot and stalk. Sure I spot across wide open prairie or across coulees, but the shots I take are typically 20-75 yards in woods and/or tall grasses. But between those spotting and shooting locations, I hump up and down through all kinds of terrain. Then my best shot may be with only a few minutes of legal hunting light left and at a range of 350 yards.

Sounds like a ~6 lb rifle with the capability of close to long range shots comes into play...hence why the Scout concept and I are in love...

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Here is under 6 pound .308. and the final way things sorted out in the early 2000s, I actually use a 2-7 VXR Leupold with a 45 degree offset Docter RMR today and enjoy it with my advancing age as a hunting tool .

Gordon,

The guys in the failed (thanks to compartmentalization of info) prison camp raid used OER Single Point Scopes. As there were no self illuminated models available yet they taped flash light bulbs wires and batteries to the scopes which were in carrying handle mounts with black electrical tape.

A lot of black electrical tape.....to prevent light leakage.

A few years later I "powered" my Single Point with a length of 1 inch ID PVC pipe and cap painted black and a "Wheat light bulb" (Youngsters should know there were small, but hot, lights before LEDs) and a battery holder and switch. Thing ate batteries, but not as bad as the Raider's flashlight bulbs.

I rather liked the Single Point OER scopes, but could not get folks even as late as the mid 1970s even to hardly look at them. I had one on my AR-180 back then and had it set up for 100yards while keeping the irons (which were easily usable through the -180 scope base) at normal BSZ.

I got my first tritium Single Point before for Aimpoint started advertising their's and a good many years before they started telling folks AImpoint was first in the US with Tritium powered scopes. Still have it though it is dead as the preverbial door nail night light wise. Works fine in the daylight still.

I really like the idea of a red dot that DOES NOT require batteries. I have successfully used SInglepoints under flairs, with car headlights and hand held flash lights. Granted with out some sort of outside light the dot does not glow......but I like that they do show up in daylight with no batteries.

-kBob

I like the Scout Rifle concept but have never had the urge to own one. I do think the Ruger is a good example of an evolution of the concept. The primary reason for the forward mounted scope was clearance to load from stripper clips. I don't think that is the most important aspect of the rifle and the detachable mags of the Ruger are an improvement over it, with some minor trade-offs. A good 1-4x mounted on the receiver gives up nothing to the forward mounted setup but has benefits of its own and greatly opens your options for an optic. I would probably use an XS full length rail to mount a traditional 1-4x scope and keep the iron sights.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/436943

But the intermediate eye relief 1-4x pictured above looks like a nice setup too.