Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.

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In a self-defense scenario, a suppressor doesn't do much for you; to the contrary, it slows you down somewhat. If you plan on initiating hostilities against Bad Guys or Bambi, you have time to plan ahead and attach the suppressor via the usual threads.
 
I disagree. A suppressor only helps in virtually any situation, unless the length presents a problem. Especially if you have to fire a rifle indoors.
 
Art Eatman said:
[...]attach the suppressor via the usual threads.
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The time to install is a lot slower, but for me, personally, I'd agree the TIME doesn't matter, but the application still does. QD mounts are a lot less "sensitive" to fouling or damage - so with 5/8-24 threads, I need to use a thread protector to prevent grit from "clogging" the threads, or impact from boogering them. With a QD mount, no extra care is needed. I'd venture Cooper wouldn't favor sensitive threads exposed at the end of his "field rifle."
 
I love my Gunsite Scout, to the point where it is essentially my only hunting rifle. I do not use it in scout configuration, though. Basically, I like that it is a stout carbine with iron sights. It is handy as can be for getting in and out of the truck and getting through brush and whatnot. I do not discount the general concept, I guess, but for me it doesn't matter. I also happen to really love the detachable box magazine.

That said, Cooper is viewed by many as the high priest of American Gunnery. I don't want to take away from his accomplishments, but at the end of the day he was just a guy. A smart guy, to be sure, but definitely capable of being wrong or off base.
 
TimboKhan said:
I love my Gunsite Scout, to the point where it is essentially my only hunting rifle. I do not use it in scout configuration, though. Basically, I like that it is a stout carbine with iron sights. It is handy as can be for getting in and out of the truck and getting through brush and whatnot. I do not discount the general concept, I guess, but for me it doesn't matter. I also happen to really love the detachable box magazine.

That said, Cooper is viewed by many as the high priest of American Gunnery. I don't want to take away from his accomplishments, but at the end of the day he was just a guy. A smart guy, to be sure, but definitely capable of being wrong or off base.
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I would not say that at Gunsite:)--that would be blasphemy. :evil:
 
It seems that there are primary features of the scout rifle concept that make it a handy rifle: 6-7 lbs. weight, carbine length, short bolt action, .30-ish caliber, efficient loading/higher capacity magazine (either box or stripper clip), back-up irons, ergonomic carry at the balance point, sling.

And then there are secondary features of the design that we endlessly debate: forward mounted scope, box mag or stripper clips or both.

That damn scope... Its always getting in the way of the balance and function of the rifle. Mount it forward and there are too many compromises in sight picture quality. Mount it aft and its in the way of one-handed carry at the balance point vis-a-vis Winchester model 94.

It just seems that with trijicon and aimpoint style (AR) scopes or red dots, synthetic stock materials, modern ergonomic stock configurations, and a free floated barrel, a clever rifle designer could come up with something svelt, elegant, balanced and practical that could bring the scout rifle concept into the 21st century.
 
jamesjames said:
It just seems that with trijicon and aimpoint style (AR) scopes or red dots, synthetic stock materials, modern ergonomic stock configurations, and a free floated barrel, a clever rifle designer could come up with something svelt, elegant, balanced and practical that could bring the scout rifle concept into the 21st century.
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I believe they call it the AR15.:D
 
The more I think about it, the more the IER 1-4x alleviates any of my complaints about the forward-mounted scope issue. I may have to give one a try but at the same time, I think about building one off a threaded American. The Magpul Hunter stock looks mighty interesting in that regard.
 
CraigC said:
The more I think about it, the more the IER 1-4x alleviates any of my complaints about the forward-mounted scope issue. I may have to give one a try but at the same time, I think about building one off a threaded American. The Magpul Hunter stock looks mighty interesting in that regard.
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Yep, I'm thinking the same thing. The Leupold that Dave Markowitz shows earlier in the thread looks to be a great idea.
 
What would be my ultimate Scout, if I was to build one : I think .300 Black in a billeted AR pistol with an an Aimpoint and a Quality swing away magnifier work pretty well , carrying one around the hills of Southern Oregon for a couple years. I have no illusions about .30 Carbinish power of the .300 versus a 7.62x51 ! So my ultra light hyper accurate , Ching sling equipted and slung , with my shooting stix in hand Remington 600 derivative 7.62x51 carbine small under pic rail in the Kevlar stock topped with Talley unimounts holding a Leupold VXR 2-7 with a GG&G offset platform for a Docter Optic RMR . Next year I will be around the desert of AZ. for quite a while. beginning retirement with it and I will report back.. I went back and wanted to capture an image of the concept for "old eyes back up Red Dot system "
B-Comp-30mm-Ring-System.jpg
 
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grampajack said:
I believe they call it the AR15.:D
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It would seem that a 6.5 lb AR would fill the bill here. Probably why the scout rifle concept sort of disappeared in the last 20 years. I think the only reason we see some offered now is attempts at marketing something different. I think the mfg's are on the wrong road however. They should be focusing on short action, lightweight, detachable mag, bolt action carbines. Not everyone wants an AR. I certainly don't.
 
I think a bolt action still makes sense where the need is for a rifle that is light for its power, accurate, and highly reliable in harsh conditions afield. To see where Cooper's thinking on the matter had its beginnings, this article he wrote way back in 1966 is instructive.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/historical/carbine-compromise/

From the article: Carbine_Compromise_1966_Jeff_Cooper_4.jpg

Carbine_Compromise_1966_Jeff_Cooper_1.jpg

Carbine_Compromise_1966_Jeff_Cooper_2.jpg

Perhaps he should have satisfied himself with his conclusions at that time, rather than going on in later years to a detailed definition of the ideal light rifle. Some regard his approach as doctrinaire. It is possible to come up with a thoroughly practical light rifle that does not check all the boxes.

But, as I said earlier, I benefited from the exercise by stealing bits and pieces of it. The speed sling and the benefits of the ubiquitous .308 are matters I quite agree with.
 
Kendal Black said:
I think a bolt action still makes sense where the need is for a rifle that is light for its power, accurate, and highly reliable in harsh conditions afield. To see where Cooper's thinking on the matter had its beginnings, this article he wrote way back in 1966 is instructive.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/historical/carbine-compromise/

From the article: View attachment 762442

View attachment 762443

View attachment 762444

Perhaps he should have satisfied himself with his conclusions at that time, rather than going on in later years to a detailed definition of the ideal light rifle. Some regard his approach as doctrinaire. It is possible to come up with a thoroughly practical light rifle that does not check all the boxes.

But, as I said earlier, I benefited from the exercise by stealing bits and pieces of it. The speed sling and the benefits of the ubiquitous .308 are matters I quite agree with.
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This needs to go with those photos. :)

View attachment 762446
 
"Nope. Cooper called the AR-15 a "poodle shooter". He was just being generous."

It was also a failure to acknowledge that the platform supported other calibers. Perhaps only 5.56 was supported when he wrote that. The number of calibers the AR-15 and AR-10 currently support is somewhat amazing.

Anyway, I like the idea of the railed Scout Rifle for hunting and shooting. I can pull off the scope and replace it with a red dot or whatever I please.

It's a 300-500 yard gun. 300-500 yards in my area may as well be a mile in my area. It cracks me up when guys talk about their 50-125 yard shots they made with their scope. Even better...the missed shots or the failure to take the shot because they didn't know how to use the wide bars on the sides of the scope (to quarter the target) since the light was a bit low. They could have taken a deer with irons!
 
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