Stop accepting blame, stop apologizing, and stop feeling guilty

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I'm not accepting any blame.

However...

I think we all can clearly see that unconstitutional laws have been passed and are currently in effect. To think there will be no more such laws passed in the future is irrational. I don't like it, but that's how I see it.

That being said, the extent to which the population of this country believe in gun rights, comes down largely to their perception of how safe or endangered they feel they are with guns in the hands of their peers. NPR recently sited a poll claiming that even though less than half the population own guns, the majority of the population feel safer with more guns in the people's possession. I would like the perception of the general public to stay this positive.

And unless there's a compelling argument for not restricting or banning bump stocks, that would be fathomable to the average citizen, I'm happy to throw them under the bus. So if you have a good argument for them that isn't "Because the 2A..", please do share.

Because banning them places blame on an inanimate object rather than an evil individual.
Because, just like firearms, to effectively ban them would require a police state.
Because passing more unconstitutional laws is not the answer.
Because how people "feel" at any give time is not a reason to pass new laws.
 
Because how people "feel" at any give time is not a reason to pass new laws.

It's not a good reason. But it is a reason. Sometimes it's an excuse.

Again, I'm talking about the majority of the population, and about how they perceive guns and gun ownership. No amount of arguing with me is going to change their minds.
 
I do not need a reason beyond fully understanding what the 2nd Amendment is, and is FOR.

However, sure, to answer the less important part of the question: Banning bumpfire stocks would be quite unlikely to be as straightforward as banning items sold as bumpfire stocks. The version of a bill to this effect published at the moment says it bans, "a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed OR FUNCTIONS to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle..."

Think hard about that for a moment. Just how far would such a ban reach into all of our gun safes? Good heavens. A huge number of things could be swept up into that pile. Binary triggers, "Hiperfire" triggers, any trigger that is lighter than ... well, nobody knows how light because ANY semi-automatic trigger can be bump-fired, all sorts of springs, stocks, parts, etc. And even unrelated stuff.

And, to get really into the meat of it, look at the ATF letter on PGO shotguns that have barrels less than 18" long but are still over 26" so are not NFA Firearms. The ATF has set precedent there by saying that if you do conceal one, like by putting it under your long coat, then you've disproved the assumption that this is not a concealable firearm, and that kicks it into the category of "AOWs" under Title II, so you're now a felon.
In other words, what you DO with it matters.

You don't have a device designed to accelerate the fire of your semi-auto rifle? Well, fine, but somebody just saw your "accidentally" double a few shots off a bench testing out the trigger on your AR. That's bump firing. And you just displayed a rifle that accelerated the rate of fire EXACTLY as a bump-fire stock would do. Whoops.

You hear this as a simple thing. You see this as putting the folks at SlideFire stocks to the guillotine, c'est la vie, and all will be well. But that's not how laws are written nor how they are enforced.

That's why the Republicans should write the legislation themselves. To make absolutely clear what is and what is not covered. It also makes the pro gun party look much better to independent voters. Could this be seen as blaming the device? Potentially. Could that open the door to blaming other devices? That very much depends on the spin.

The flip side is that nothing changes and bump stocks remain as easily obtainable as they have been. But now that bump stocks are common knowledge, devices of this nature are likely to be used in future mass shooting. And they will be used in conjunction with "scary black" semi-automatic rifles and "high" capacity magazines. And once that starts happening, I'm confident a political swing to the left will follow. It will certainly happen eventually. When the Democrats once again attain a super-majority in Congress and retake the White House, the general public will likely be happy to lump together all the scary "assault rifles" "high capacity clips" and bump stocks together, and restrict or ban them all.

We all know that the reality is none of the firearms, parts, or accessories are in any way responsible for mass shootings. The reality is also that most people do not understand that; do not see why anyone should have these things; and don't know a better way to prevent these shootings than to ban the devices used in them.

So, my stance is that by separating bump stocks from all the truly useful accessories and types of firearms, gun owners look reasonable, rational, and interested in the well being of the people. And it can all be spun by simply stating the these devices were not in existence when the Brady Bill was passed, but would have been covered under it if they had.
 
Bump stocks, suppressors, hi-cap mags, etc. The ONLY thing about these that bothers me is what Nancy Pelosi had to say:

"According to the Washington Post, Pelosi asked House Speaker Paul Ryan (R., Wis.) to allow a vote on a Democratic bill banning the devices. Upon being asked if the bill was a slippery slope toward further gun restrictions, she said, "So what? … I certainly hope so."

Liberals could not actually give a hoot about the bump stocks. That's not what they want. For this reason, and this reason only, I will urge my elected officials to vote against any bills to ban anything. I have fought these idiots for over 50 years tooth and nail. I have been around long enough to realize what giving them "reasonable restrictions" accomplishes.
 
Y'all are missing the point....your devices and gimmicks are literally enabling evil people to do more harm than they otherwise could and you're tying the ability to legally possess those devices to the greater RKBA.

If y'all honestly decide to ride the "not one bloody inch" train, you'll slip in the blood of more mass shooting victims eventually and we'll see sweeping bans that go a lot farther than ARs or high capacity magazines or bump fire stocks. Remember that a considerable portion of the organized American gun community is older, whiter and more conservative than the population as a whole, and how do y'all reckon that's going to go for the RKBA when the political pendulum swings back in 3 years? (Because I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a lasting positive influence on the image of conservative politics)

Edit: I mean, we have people on this board honestly wanting Hughes repealed so we can get more real machine guns at lower prices into circulation. Really? Do we want the next John Holmes to literally have a SAW? How about getting the next Paddock a real anti-tank rifle, if we go to the stated goal of repealing NFA34? I mean, anti-vehicle munitions and MANPADS are vital for a robust revolution...
 
Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, and their ilk will not be satisfied until all of the subjects are completely disarmed and at the mercy of the police state, and anyone who helps them is a "useful idiot", regardless of motivation.
 
If y'all honestly decide to ride the "not one bloody inch" train, you'll slip in the blood of more mass shooting victims eventually and we'll see sweeping bans that go a lot farther than ARs or high capacity magazines or bump fire stocks.
Just like we did last time, after Sandy Hook, when you were here hollering the same line of capitulation and resignation?

I mean, we have people on this board honestly wanting Hughes repealed so we can get more real machine guns at lower prices into circulation. Really?
Yes, most fervently, with all my heart.

Do we want the next John Holmes to literally have a SAW?
Ha ha ha ha ha! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I know what you MEANT to say, but ... uh, dude, that's the wrong Mr. Holmes. The image brought to mind is outstanding, though! A squad automatic weapon seems just right to go along with his mustache! Get a little 70s wah-wah synth music as a soundtrack... :D

How about getting the next Paddock a real anti-tank rifle, if we go to the stated goal of repealing NFA34? I mean, anti-vehicle munitions and MANPADS are vital for a robust revolution...
Freedom is not safe. Killing people is against the law no matter what. In the grand scheme of things, Paddock chose one of the LESS effective means he could have employed. This is a dead-end argument.
 
That's why the Republicans should write the legislation themselves. To make absolutely clear what is and what is not covered. It also makes the pro gun party look much better to independent voters. Could this be seen as blaming the device? Potentially. Could that open the door to blaming other devices? That very much depends on the spin.

You can't control the "spin" of how a law will be interpreted once it's in force across a whole nation. You can't write a law to do what they (you?) want to do here that is so narrow that it won't sweep up all sorts of other devices and even guns -- possibly even what people DO with their guns.

As if we should even try to...
 
I don't know the final answer, but it certainly shouldn't be acceptance of casual mass murder.
And tell me one person on here who has advocated the casual mass murder of any group....except maybe ISIS.

Tell me someone on here who doesn’t give a damn that 59 people were murdered?

Now tell me how many on here are seeing the bigger picture. That the true spirit of the 2nd Ammendment MUST be preserved at all cost.

Do you even realize how many millions of people have been slaughtered by their own government under the guise of “protecting the people”? Not 59. MILLIONS. And when we capitulate to their requests, we’re one step closer. For God’s sake, the 2nd Ammendment is the ONLY reason it hasn’t already happened here.
 
You can't control the "spin" of how a law will be interpreted once it's in force across a whole nation. You can't write a law to do what they (you?) want to do here that is so narrow that it won't sweep up all sorts of other devices and even guns -- possibly even what people DO with their guns.

As if we should even try to...

I disagree. I think the spin can be controlled. I think the law can be written that tightly.

Do I want that law? Ideally, no. I want people to control their feelings and stop lashing out at innocents with extreme violence. That's not going to happen. It will likely only get worse. So I want to avoid any restrictive legislation reaching out to effect anything more than these particular devices. I don't own an AR, and I don't use my 30 round mags. But I still value my right to obtain, own, and bear them. And everyone else's right to them too. I feel legislation on bump stocks is the best way to protect those rights. I know you don't agree with my point of view, but it is still the best course of action, in my opinion.
 
I didn't shoot anybody,and as long as Mitch McConnell,is in Washington DC,no need to worry about your Second Amendment Rights.Nothing is going to change. Yep i'm a Democrat, who love's his gun rights. That's my opinion.
 
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Sam1911 writes (regarding my pointing out that defeat can occur at the state level, and did in Colorado, Connecticut, and New York):

But surely the losses in those three states do not in any way make for a cogent argument that we should fold our cards NOW?

That was exactly my point, which you missed, and then made. I was actually arguing against complacency and defeatism that many have practiced since "nothing happened to our rights after Sandy Hook, even under an anti-gun Federal administration."
 
I'm openly advocating for increased restrictions on semiautomatic firearms.
Which makes you either an anti, or someone who simply doesn't get it. They want them all, but use emotional shootings like this one to try to take whatever they can this time, but they never stop coming after guns.

If you really believe more restrictions on semi autos will reduce crime, or the anties will stop asking for more restrictions/gun bans if we give in to that, you need to study the history of gun control and how gun control does not reduce crime, and in fact often increases it. Not to mention how the anties lie about...give us this and that is all we want.

No amount of gun control would have stopped this lunatic.

And Sam is right, attack the message not the messenger.
 
I accept zero blame, I apologize to no one, and I do not feel guilty. In fact, I feel like every liberal in this country owes me and every other American, especially the ones in Vegas, a huge apology for dividing this country with their insurrectionist, bolshevist bullcrap. Unfortunately, they lack the ability to feel guilt over anything. I wholeheartedly believe their only regret is that more people didn't die. The only thing that would make them happier is if the shooter had been wearing a Trump shirt.

I don't know the final answer, but it certainly shouldn't be acceptance of casual mass murder.

That's right, you don't have the final answer. You can't even logically explain how anything you're advocating could prevent one death.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a lunatic problem. And if they can't access a firearm, then they'll use knives, cars, bombs, etc. to get the job done. Just imagine if Paddock had driven into that crowd with a truck. The death toll would have been in the hundreds.
 
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I'm openly advocating for increased restrictions on semiautomatic firearms.
It;s good to know how you feel because when I read any post you make I can disregard it because it's written by an anti-gun poster.

I assume that you've sold, given away, turned in or destroyed all your semi-auto firearms because you feel that owning them contributed to the tragedies committed by demented people. Why wait for legislation since you advocate for their elimination?

I also assume that you've given up owning a vehicle since they've been used by sickos to do great harm to people around the world. Right? Hey, they are lethal weapons in the hands of someone hell bent on hurting others. I assume you are advocating for them to be banned from the millions of people who use them daily who don't kill others with them.

So, since you don't want to be a hypocrite, give up your guns and you car/truck if you haven't already. Otherwise all you write is meaningless if you don't believe it yourself.
 
The one premise that ALWAYS seems to underlie tragic events like these, or rather the days after tragic events like these, is that the left-leaning media and pundits always start with the assumption that law-abiding gun owners must ''do more'', when in fact, we are by definition, law-abiding citizens and beholden to no one for relinquishing more of our 2A rights.
 
I don't know the final answer, but it certainly shouldn't be acceptance of casual mass murder.
How about some perspective?
According to the Washington Post 948 people have been murdered over the last 50 years in America from mass shootings. Do you know how many people have been murdered in Chicago so far this year? 503 so far according to heyjackass.com. Evil takes on many forms for many reasons and we will never be able to legislate it out of existence by outlawing it's tools. If we really want to prevent senseless acts like we saw this week we need to find out why it happened. This guy did not live the life of a hermit. What made him so angry that killing people he did not know became a viable solution?
The answer will be very hard to get but if we truly want to live in a world we're this doesn't happen we must find out why. Banning tools does nothing.
 
Y'all are missing the point....your devices and gimmicks are literally enabling evil people to do more harm than they otherwise could and you're tying the ability to legally possess those devices to the greater RKBA.

If y'all honestly decide to ride the "not one bloody inch" train, you'll slip in the blood of more mass shooting victims eventually and we'll see sweeping bans that go a lot farther than ARs or high capacity magazines or bump fire stocks. Remember that a considerable portion of the organized American gun community is older, whiter and more conservative than the population as a whole, and how do y'all reckon that's going to go for the RKBA when the political pendulum swings back in 3 years? (Because I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a lasting positive influence on the image of conservative politics)

Edit: I mean, we have people on this board honestly wanting Hughes repealed so we can get more real machine guns at lower prices into circulation. Really? Do we want the next John Holmes to literally have a SAW? How about getting the next Paddock a real anti-tank rifle, if we go to the stated goal of repealing NFA34? I mean, anti-vehicle munitions and MANPADS are vital for a robust revolution...
Thats well said whether you agree with it or not. The demographics of the population are changing against gun ownership. The use of the "bump stocks" allowed much more ammo to be fired onto the crowd than if the guns were just stock semi autos resulting in more casualties. If you can't admit that well theres a problem. I've got no problem regulating or banning any thing that allows a semi auto have a rate of fire like a full auto or close to it. This could give a lot of positive PR to the NRA and gun owners at a critical time. I don't feel responsible or guilty but if all you feel is "I want my bump stock" after this shooting theres a bigger problem in the gun community than I though there was.
 
Thats well said whether you agree with it or not. The demographics of the population are changing against gun ownership. The use of the "bump stocks" allowed much more ammo to be fired onto the crowd than if the guns were just stock semi autos resulting in more casualties. If you can't admit that well theres a problem. I've got no problem regulating or banning any thing that allows a semi auto have a rate of fire like a full auto or close to it. This could give a lot of positive PR to the NRA and gun owners at a critical time. I don't feel responsible or guilty but if all you feel is "I want my bump stock" after this shooting theres a bigger problem in the gun community than I though there was.
No. You’re missing the point. And you haven’t comprehended what is being said by us, or Pelosi. It’s not about the damn bump fire stock. I don’t even own one. That’s NOT the point. Some people make me wish I lived in Colorado sometimes. But since I’m in Oklahoma, I’ll just have a beer instead.
 
Y'all are missing the point....your devices and gimmicks are literally enabling evil people to do more harm than they otherwise could and you're tying the ability to legally possess those devices to the greater RKBA.

If y'all honestly decide to ride the "not one bloody inch" train, you'll slip in the blood of more mass shooting victims eventually and we'll see sweeping bans that go a lot farther than ARs or high capacity magazines or bump fire stocks. Remember that a considerable portion of the organized American gun community is older, whiter and more conservative than the population as a whole, and how do y'all reckon that's going to go for the RKBA when the political pendulum swings back in 3 years? (Because I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a lasting positive influence on the image of conservative politics)

Edit: I mean, we have people on this board honestly wanting Hughes repealed so we can get more real machine guns at lower prices into circulation. Really? Do we want the next John Holmes to literally have a SAW? How about getting the next Paddock a real anti-tank rifle, if we go to the stated goal of repealing NFA34? I mean, anti-vehicle munitions and MANPADS are vital for a robust revolution...

A *right* is an action that does not have to be justified to anyone. It is inherent in our being. It is unalienable.

I have a *right* to worship or not worship as I please. I do not have to justify who/what/where/why I worship.

I do not have to justify demanding a jury trial if accused of a crime. It is my *right*.

Keeping and Bearing an Arm is a *right*. This particular right shall not even be *infringed*.

I do not know how to make it any more clear.
 
Let's just put this into perspective.

From 2009 to 2015, the US was 11th for mass shooting deaths per capita. France was number three.

From 2009 to 2015, the US was 12th for number of mass shooting events. France was number three.

For those who don't know, civilians in France are relegated to black powder antiques for self defense.

Clearly, France needs to outlaw black powder guns.

Surely that will end their mass shootings once and for all.

We'll just ignore the fact that the mass shootings were carried out using AK47s and hand grenades, which are supposed to be beyond impossible to get in France.

We'll also forget that those weapons must have been smuggled through no less than three countries with gun control laws ranging from strict to barking mad.

Those damned French, selfishly clinging to their antique black powder guns while people are being mowed down in the streets. Have they no shame? The only thing worse are those evil Americans, who don't even care enough to give up their slidefire stocks.

Who cares if it won't make one iota of difference, and set a precedent that would further erode what little is left of their God given rights as human beings? It's the thought that counts!
 
^And that's what I mean. Gun owners are letting themselves be defined by a stubborn adherence to hard-line commitment to enabling easy mass murder with tools that are relatively disposable to society, not by hunting, sports or even the traditionally-associated tools of patriots and freedom fighters. Sure, a lot of veterans use modern weapons in combat and support gun rights- but a lot of us also don't really like Omaha Beach re-enacted on the Strip either, and we're a lot more liberal than our grandparents were.
 
^And that's what I mean. Gun owners are letting themselves be defined by a stubborn adherence to hard-line commitment to enabling easy mass murder with tools that are relatively disposable to society, not by hunting, sports or even the traditionally-associated tools of patriots and freedom fighters. Sure, a lot of veterans use modern weapons in combat and support gun rights- but a lot of us also don't really like Omaha Beach re-enacted on the Strip either, and we're a lot more liberal than our grandparents were.

I can't even begin to decrypt what you're trying to say here, much less figure out what it has to do with anything I said.
 
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