Stop accepting blame, stop apologizing, and stop feeling guilty

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...at a time when we as responsible gun owners need as much support as we can get, to divide ourselves over petty opinions is absurd. I too am not accepting blame, making any apologies, nor do I feel guilty about my stance on the 2nd Amendment and responsible gun ownership. That said, I also don't hold my opinion as the only correct one out there. I don't agree with the one poster that said support of the 2nd amendment is slipping, having lived thru those times after the Reagan assassination attempt and the Clinton years, I think for the most part, it is actually increasing. I will admit tho that support changes as time goes on and everytime there is another mass shooting. One of the things most folk miss when they make their stand on the 2nd is the right of the 1st by all. We want others to respect our definitions, but refuse to accept others. In the end, it's those 9 folks seated in the SCOTUS that make the final decision and the one that we all have to heed. I have lived surrounded by guns and gun owners all my life and have seen the extremes in both directions by those that own guns. The Fudds and the Extremists. All have their own arguments and all should be entitled to their opinion. Alienating any of them because of the refusal to respect their opinion hurts the main objective. I find myself somewhere in the middle, along with the majority of others, wanting very few infringements, but knowing there needs to be some who should be prohibited, and some things that should not be readily accessible to the general public..........I do not feel guilty about it, and I refuse to apologize for it.
 
I am an unapologetic gun owner. I am sad over what happened in LV and all the other mass shootings. There is no reason to feel anything other than sadness. The outcome of these incidents is another call for more regulation on our right to keep and bear arms. Already, some legal scholars are back on the "No individual right" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I just watched such a discussion on CSPAN today. Nancy Pelosi has clearly stated that a Bump Ban is just the start of her list of regulations. Give these people an opening and we will be limited to powder horns, patched balls and flint. Keep on being a responsible owner. If you know someone who has serious destructive mental health issues and owns guns or exhibits criminal tendencies, say something to the proper authorities. Meanwhile, in my community, I will keep dealing with the criminals on probation who somehow still own firearms. How about enforcing the laws we already have for a change?
 
Rocketmedic said:
Your attitudes are incredibly insensitive and arrogant and will be your downfall.
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Really? By and large it seems like people are mostly discussing the issue at hand here. You haven't responded in any depth to the facts (or even opinions) that I (or many others) have presented in this thread, but you're now going to label me/them as "insensitive and arrogant"?

How does that fit?

Where was the insensitivity? Speaking just for myself here, of course I feel bad for the individuals and families who are impacted by this terrible tragedy in their lives. That said, it does not make me responsible for it, nor does it mean I will (or should) give up my freedoms because of it. When that shooting happened I was literally working at a job where I help to keep people safe. The importance of the 2nd Amendment has not been diminished simply because an evil person did an evil deed. For the rest of us the 2nd Amendment remains as important as ever.

As for being "arrogant", I guess that's an issue that is pretty open to interpretation. But, nevertheless, I've provided a rationale for my opinion on the issues presented in this thread (like suppressors), and you've merely quipped that you believe they should be banned because they'd make it easier for this shooter to kill more people. Nothing we've seen suggested that he was shooting suppressed, and nothing we've seen in other shootings suggests that there'd be a measurable tactical advantage to a mass shooter using a suppressor. I've asked you to elaborate on your opinion, and you've dodged the question. I've provided scientific data on sound pressure levels of suppressed and unsuppressed high powered rifle fire, and you've held your ground in spite of that data.

I'm really, sincerely, trying to understand your position here. I don't agree with you, but I also don't hate you for it. My brother would be wholeheartedly in your camp, and I don't hate him, either. I don't hate people for a difference of opinion. But, I'm not willing to roll the facts under the bus just because someone tells me what they think they know about a device they've clearly never used in real life. I'm also not willing to diminish my rights because of something an evil person did some 800 miles away from me. If you feel that you need to turn over all of your semi-automatic firearms because of this incident, make yourself at home. I'm keeping mine, regardless of what any law in the future might say.

I'm more than willing to debate this issue with you, but you haven't debated it yet as far as I can tell. If you're near Colorado I'd be more than happy to take you to a range and let you try a suppressor out for yourself. They do work, but they don't work like Hollywood would like you to believe.
 
Making concessions when your opponents are unwilling to reciprocate in any manner, is a loose loose situation.
We all know the other side only has one goal in mind, total, and complete confiscation of all firearms in our United States of America. That's why I have no compulsion to do anything but fight them at every turn on every issue no matter how small. PERIOD!!!!!
 
Some postings here reflect the reason I am ashamed of my generation and being a "millennial". You can give up your rights,but dont offer up mine. I do not own a semi auto rifle (excluding my 10/22) ,nor do I need one. Have I had them ? Yes multiple ar's ,minis, etc .

But I would NEVER expect someone else to give up theirs on my account or be forced to because of some piece of **** who shot up innocent people. Giving them up wont change a thing. Like others have said, if someone wants to commit mass murder or do evil things there is always another way.
 
I’m seriously starting to think Rocketmedic is just baiting us. Inflammatory statements without explanation. No questions asked. His opinions have passed from ignorant to stupid. Ignorance can be cured with facts and reason, which we’ve taken how much time, collectively, to provide? He’s chosen to ignore everything we’ve explained. And I have been shown no reason to believe he will not continue to do so. I think we’re simply providing him with a source of entertainment. He’s certainly not after an education.

So..... I vote “Troll”.
 
So much disregard for basic human rights being displayed by a couple of trolls here, so little time to debunk the same old regurgitation of the "people control" crowd.

Paddock was a pilot. What if, instead of choosing firearms he had decided to fly one of the two aircraft he owned into the same crowd? I bet that even with a single engine Cessna it would have been possible to kill more than 58 and injure more than 500 in a crowd of 22K. If he had done this, would the same trolls be on the AOPA forums demanding the restriction of General Aviation aircraft? Of course not, just like they haven't been lining up to condemn the auto and truck industry after those products have been used to mow down people.

Bunch of hypocrites. You don't care that people died, only that your political agenda be enacted, an agenda that would enslave free people and usher in a government sponsored hell hole.

Yes, I am a rights absolutist, and I don't give a tinker's damn if you think that I am using harsh rhetoric to make my point. As has been previously mentioned, governments have murdered millions of their citizens, and I, for one, am going to make it as difficult as possible for my government to do the same. So, I am going to "bitterly cling" to my guns and do everything in my power to ensure that my children and grandchildren enjoy the same ability to protect themselves against thugs, madmen, and governments.

That is the High Road of freedom, not the low road of slavery that some of you are advocating.
 
I think that y'all accusing anyone of a dissenting opinion as being a 'troll' is remarkably short-sighted. I'm not stupid, nor am I an anti-gun fanatic. I'd wager I actually know quite a bit more about the effect and potential danger of firearms a lot more than many of the posters on this board, but because I have a different opinion about what we ought to defend and what the limits of the 2A are from many of you, I'm automatically a troll. I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools.
 
Rocketmedic said:
Suppressors could have delayed finding this guy by a bit...
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Not likely. Silencers would have taken the noise down to about 135 dB at best. Hardly silent. Also, in an urban environment it's already very hard to hear where the gunshots are coming from because of the echo of the bullets' supersonic cracks off the buildings.

If you watch any of the crowd-level videos you'll notice that the loudest sound is actually the echo of the bullets' shock waves and not the gunshots themselves.

Also, anyone who has fired a suppressed AR-15 knows that silencers would most likely have made the shooting far less deadly. All silencers (except for some made by one specific company) send extra gas back through the action, and on a DI AR-15 this gas comes out though the charging handle hole straight into the shooter's face.

I can tell you from lots of personal experience that shooting a suppressed AR-15 at the rates he did will cause extreme vision and breathing problems in less than a minute. Maybe if he had the stock fully extended and some anti-gassing measures (silicone caulk, gas-buster charging handle, etc.) he could have kept his vision and breathing for a few minutes, but not for much longer. Certainly not for the 10 minutes he was shooting, not without an oxygen mask and goggles.

Rocketmedic, I wouldn't mind this debate if you were just a gun owner with a different philosophy on gun rights than mine. I'd like to think I could disagree with you without getting too annoyed with your stance. But when someone displays the same sort of gun ignorance that the anti-gun crowd does and then uses that to form their opinion, I find that hard to excuse.
 
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Incidentally, the New York Times reported that the murderer had let his pilots license lapse since 2010.
Rocketmedic, I will address one thing you said right here,

Rocketmedic said:
.... I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools.
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I must 100% disagree with your wording on this one - none of my tools have been misused. I accept no blame in this incident whatsoever. I have looked at the reasoning of why we have these tools, and the rights established in both federal and state Constitutions are fairly clear on that point. Court interpretations have been spotty, to be sure, since the Miller case, but recent court decisions are moving in the path clearly set by the Founding Fathers. To attempt to paint all gun owners with the broad brush of blame is disingenuous at best, and deliberate malice at worst. I refuse to accept any blame for any person's misuse of a legal product, no more than am I to blame when a drunk driver kills anyone, nor when a person stabs someone to death with a knife, simply because I own a vehicle and kitchen knives. Do remember, the AR15 semi automatic rifle has been for sale to law abiding citizens in this country for over 50 years. Again, I do not accept blame for another persons' criminal acts.
 
BigBore44 said:
I’m seriously starting to think Rocketmedic is just baiting us. Inflammatory statements without explanation. No questions asked. His opinions have passed from ignorant to stupid. Ignorance can be cured with facts and reason, which we’ve taken how much time, collectively, to provide? He’s chosen to ignore everything we’ve explained. And I have been shown no reason to believe he will not continue to do so. I think we’re simply providing him with a source of entertainment. He’s certainly not after an education.

So..... I vote “Troll”.
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So far he's followed the liberal formula to the letter. I vote that he's an activist come here to educate us.

Rocketmedic said:
I think that y'all accusing anyone of a dissenting opinion as being a 'troll' is remarkably short-sighted. I'm not stupid, nor am I an anti-gun fanatic. I'd wager I actually know quite a bit more about the effect and potential danger of firearms a lot more than many of the posters on this board, but because I have a different opinion about what we ought to defend and what the limits of the 2A are from many of you, I'm automatically a troll. I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools.
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You're entitled to an informed opinion. You're not entitled to come on here and lecture, accuse, and belittle us, then completely ignore the facts we've presented to you. Either present facts of your own or apologize. Quite frankly, your accusation that we're being insensitive to the victims is offensive on many levels.

It's also hypocritical. If you feel that giving up personal liberties is going to save anyone, and yet you keep your guns that you claim to have, then you have no right to come on here and lecture us. That's like being against wearing fur and having a whole closet full of it, or believing in global warming and yet driving an SUV. At least we have our lives straight, according to our own beliefs. I have guns because I know on an intellectual level that they keep society safer, and that they save far more innocent lives than they take. I see that we have 600 million guns in this country, and my only regret is that we don't have a billion.
 
I openly support further regulation of rocks because of what Cain did.

That would make about as much sense as (how I perceive) your argument, Rocketmedic.

I can't even wrap my head around the logic that would find a simple mechanism guilty of a crime, or that outlawing that mechanism would somehow alleviate a humans malicious intent.

I think yours may be a trust issue; "well, I like them, and I have them, but I won't hurt anybody. But THAT guy, he doesn't need them. I don't know if I can trust him. I don't know what HE will do"

I pretty much love everybody until they give me reason not to, and my level of trust borders on gullible.
But still, if some nut bag decides to come unhinged, I choose to retain the option of returning fire.
 
Burn your slide-fire stock!! A guy was about to burn his AR stock. Talk about brain-washing.

Saturday's Memphis propaganda sheets, called "The Comm. Appeal" paper had an article on the local guy. You can see the AR-15 in the photo.

If the devices are evil, why doesn't he destroy the Rifle, which sends bullets down the barrel thingy? They did Not destroy these rifles after Newtown, or did some people?

If Volvo, Toyota or Mercedes trucks were used to kill so many people in Nice France or Berlin, those types of trucks be burned!
And any long, sharp kitchen knife.

The guy who was ready to burn his slide-fire stock was probably influenced by both the mass media, and/or the apparent agreement by the NRA to agree on banning these.
People-even some AR owners-can be taught How to Think (by Not thinking: using emotion, not critical thinking) by what makes "Good Copy" in newspapers or on tv. And vast numbers of viewers don't even realize it.
 
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Rocketmedic said:
I think that y'all accusing anyone of a dissenting opinion as being a 'troll' is remarkably short-sighted. I'm not stupid, nor am I an anti-gun fanatic. I'd wager I actually know quite a bit more about the effect and potential danger of firearms a lot more than many of the posters on this board, but because I have a different opinion about what we ought to defend and what the limits of the 2A are from many of you, I'm automatically a troll. I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools.
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I had to grin just a little bit at this.

You have been called a troll by some because your posts come across that way. Pretty simple. And again, if you don't understand this you are either acting ignorant for whatever reason, or you simply don't understand how the antis work.

I am fairly sure no one called you stupid, if they did they need to apologize. You have been called ignorant, which is simply because you come across as uneducated in the ways of the antis and how the battle over gun rights is played.

Yes, you definitely have a different opinion on what you think should be limited when it comes to our 2nd Amendment rights, typical of antis. It's the usual..."Oh I believe in the 2nd Amendment, BUT............

"Automatically a troll" because..... "I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools"

C'mon man, that is straight of of the antis playbook. Seriously.

And "our misused tools"

No, they were the tools used by a mad man. Not ours, nor any law abiding citizens. You can't stop crazy, and your fantasy of a land where no bump stocks exist would still have tragic shootings like this. If you could miraculously make guns disappear off the face of the planet, the crazies would simply use other methods.

You can't stop crazy when there are no warning signs, and you can't fix it by taking rights away from law abiding citizens. It simply doesn't affect criminals and crazy people. As you become more aware of how the antis work you will recognize their patterns, their methods, and how they take advantage of these type of tragedies to further their goal of complete disarmament of the peasants they wish to rule.
.
 
Rocketmedic said:
I think that y'all accusing anyone of a dissenting opinion as being a 'troll' is remarkably short-sighted. I'm not stupid, nor am I an anti-gun fanatic. I'd wager I actually know quite a bit more about the effect and potential danger of firearms a lot more than many of the posters on this board, but because I have a different opinion about what we ought to defend and what the limits of the 2A are from many of you, I'm automatically a troll. I think that the lives of victims of our misused tools are worth at least a look as to why we have those tools.
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Forget what I said before, keep posting. It's kind of entertaining.
 
My knee jerk reaction to the President and NRA supporting "bump stock" legislation is one needs to throw the dog pack a bone occasionally or they will howl all night. Many will view that as a concession. As an NRA Life Member and Gun owner, everything from single shot to auto loaders, Rifles, pistols and shotguns and muzzle loaders. I have absolutely no need for bump stocks, and question their use beyond entertainment. I'm sure many here would agree that the ownership and use of full automatics should as be as unregulated as any other firearm, but we live in a regulated society. Their use is outlawed at my private club, its a matter of member and property safety and a location not suitable.
 
Over the years we've seen people, like the the rocket guy, stir up issues within our community, especially when we have a mass carnage. I believe they are here to amuse themselves and are sponsored by the likes of the Dems and/or the Bloombergs and Soros' of the world. They feel empowered if they convert one gun guy to "come to their senses" and turn into an anti. They are bored and want controversy to amuse themselves. If you notice his join date and see the number of his posts you can tell that he is not a regular. He enjoys being disruptive and we feed his needs. Placing him on ignore is one way to take away his fix. Another way is to see him as the drunken poacher (above post) does as pure entertainment from someone trying to get attention. By us responding, we are falling into his trap. He is using us and our emotions to get his jollies. We are feeding his ego.
 
Rocketmedic said:
I'd wager I actually know quite a bit more about the effect and potential danger of firearms a lot more than many of the posters on this board,
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Lol!! Didn’t you accuse US of being arrogant and offensive? Well now you can no longer use those two adjectives in your argument because you have just displayed both in your posts. And once again, you’ve done so without providing any FACTS to support your stance. We ask you questions and you don’t answer. A perfectly liberal stance. Claims, and accusations without facts. And the reason you don’t provide facts is also very simple. The facts are on our side. So you ignore them and “claim” to have superior knowledge (see your quote above). Liberal absurdity at its finest.
 
I wish I was sponsored; I would appreciate some extra cash.

I also think that at least some of the 33,000ish Americans killed annually by gun violence might be spared if we made some of the more combat-effective, lethal firearms harder to get.
 
But your opinion isn't based on anything concrete and you refuse to even acknowledge all of the many points of fact and logic which have been handed to you.

You simply believe what you WANT to believe. To a certain extent, gun control is a matter of faith. You believe in it and no evidence to the contrary is going to sway you.

So, I guess that leaves us at an impasse. Since you don't have a logical argument to support your position, and you won't allow any of ours to seep past your ears and into your brain, there isn't much point in you continuing to stand here getting pounded.

I don't want to come down on the side of those who think you're here for pure entertainment value and attention seeking, but continuing in this same vein is going to start to convince me.
 
Rocketmedic said:
I also think that at least some of the 33,000ish Americans killed annually by gun violence might be spared if...
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I guess you are entitled to your opinion. I don't know what "gun violence" is. I know of no guns that fire on their own. Yeah, it must be the person holding the gun. Ya think? As has been proven over hundreds of years, it's not the gun that is the problem, it's the person wishing to harm others. Mass carnage? Read about history hundreds of years ago before guns existed. Genghis Khan, Marco Polo, the Crusades, the Roman Empire, the list is endless. Humans killing other humans "just because". Want to stop man killing man? Eliminate man from existence. Until that happens, your "gun violence" is just another catch phrase for the anti-gun crowd who have no other basis for their desire to disarm us. Obviously, by your words, you also wish to disarm us or leave us with black powder, single shot firearms.
 
Rocketmedic said:
I wish I was sponsored; I would appreciate some extra cash.

I also think that at least some of the 33,000ish Americans killed annually by gun violence might be spared if we made some of the more combat-effective, lethal firearms harder to get.
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Ok. I would like to know three things.

1. What,in your honest opinion, is a “Right” as defined by the Constitution?

2. What, in your honest opinion, is the purpose of the 2nd Ammendment?

3. What, in your honest opinion, is the purpose of the words “well-regulated militia”?

I’m honestly asking you to provide this information. Don’t skip it and reply to an “arrogant and offensive” post. Reply to this one. 3 simple questions.
 
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Deanimator said:
What is it EXACTLY that you think you'd like to TRY to take away from us?
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You know!
Scary looking guns.
The ones with collapsible stocks. Yeah, mass carnage makers.
The ones with that deadly bayonet lugs.
Pistol grips too! Scary stuff!
How about anything black. Black means evil ya know.
Maybe scopes should be banned as well. Why not? It makes any gun even more deadly. Those darn scopes. Bad scopes! Bad scopes!
Yeah, he never answered about the firearms he owns.
Why?
Because a hypocrite won't show his true colors.
 
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