I just purchased my first snub yesterday. The Fin had a great price ($349 / $299 after rebate) and I just couldn't pass it up. I've looked at these for awhile as an alternative to my XD sub. I can't wait to get to the range and try it out!
642 Club Part Three
- Thread starter fiVe
- Start date
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308win
Member
OhiaBoy - Did they have any selection of reloading supplies especially 5.56 bulk bullets? I haven't been up there for awhile and am looking for any excuse to run up. They are about an hour from my place.
To keep on topic: welcome to the club!
To keep on topic: welcome to the club!
motorcycle-charlie
Member
congrats on the snub OhiaBoy, i bet it will lead to at least 1 or 2 or 3 more. once you get into these little belly guns it is hard to turn away. welcome to THR. take a look around here and i bet you will see some form of your next purchase. $299 gets you in the door at a great price.
amazon shooter
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 37
S&w 642 - double taps?
Hi Guys,
I am looking for a carry gun for self protectin in Latin America and I am considering the small .380's and the S&W 642. Considering the information below, it appears that the S&W 642 does the job, however there is one subject that few consider - how fast and accurate are double taps.
With some of these small handguns, after the first shot, your second shot is delayed because the you have lost your optimum grip or the trigger pull is so hard and long you can't stay on target.
What do you guys say about your 642's?
For your consideration:
The New York Police Department did a study from 1854 to 1979, about armed encounters wherew 254 officers died from wounds. (http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/Combat.htm)
Their findings are:
1) The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than
15 feet.
Contact to 3 feet ... 34%
3 feet to 6 feet ...... 47%
6 feet to 15 feet ..... 9%
2) The majority of incidents occurred in poor lighting conditions. None
occurred in what could be called total darkness. It was noted that
flashlights were not used as a marksmanship aid. Also, dim light firing
involves another element which is different from full light firing, muzzle
flash.
3) Firearms accounted for only 60% of the attacks on police. However, in the 254 cases of officers killed in an armed encounter, firearms were used in 90% (230) of them, and knives in 5% (11).
4) In all cases reviewed, an unauthorized or gimmick holster (ankle, shoulder, skeleton, fast draw, clip-on etc.) was involved when the revolver was lost, accidentally discharged, or the officer was disarmed.
5) In 70% of the cases reviewed, sight alignment was not used. Officers
reported that they used instinctive or point shooting.
6) 65% of the officers who had knowledge of impending danger, had their
revolvers drawn and ready. "Don't draw your gun and point it
at anyone unless you intend to shoot" is a tactical blunder.
7) Reports on incidents involving police death revealed that the officer was
alone more often than not and that he was confronted by at least two people.
8) The element reported as the single most important factor in the officer's
survival during an armed confrontation was cover.
9) In 84% of the cases reviewed, the officer was in a standing or crouch
position (supported and unsupported) when he fired.
10) Officers, with an occasional exception, fired with the strong hand. The value of placing heavy emphasis on weak hand shooting during training and
qualification is subject to question.
11) The double action technique was used in 90% of the situations and used almost without exceptions in close range, surprise, or immediate danger situations.
12) A warning shot may set off chain reaction firing. Firing while running changes the situation from one where skill has a bearing into one in which the outcome depends on pure chance. It endangers the officer unnecessarily by depleting his ammunition supply, and increases the chance of shooting innocent persons who may be present.
13) The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged.
14) The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.
15) In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action. In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading.
16) In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition, caliber, or velocity of the bullet. Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough to end the confrontation.
17) The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed
confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of
the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.
In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:
Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%
18) It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can
certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the
reports.
19) The US Army recognizes that there is a disconnect. Its training manual, FM23-35 Combat Training With Pistols & Revolvers (1988), calls for the use of Point Shooting for combat at less than 15 feet, and when firing at night. It does not call for using standard and traditional range marksmanship
techniques.
"The weapon should be held in a two-hand grip and brought up close to the
body until it reaches chin level. It is then thrust forward until both arms
are straight. As the weapon is thrust forward, the trigger is smoothly
squeezed to the rear. The arms and body form a triangle which can be aimed
as a unit."
Target Focused shooting is taught to the CHP. It is similar to the shooting
methods of Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate, in that the sights are not used
in close quarters aiming.
According to the NRA's Guide To The Basics Of Personal Protection In The Home that was published in 2000. "...the ability to keep all shots on a standard 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper at seven yards, hitting in the center of exposed mass, is sufficient for most defensive purposes."
And per the stats, if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 80% chance that that will happen at less than 15 feet. So using a method to aim and shoot that is natural, fast, and accurate makes life over death sense.
Hi Guys,
I am looking for a carry gun for self protectin in Latin America and I am considering the small .380's and the S&W 642. Considering the information below, it appears that the S&W 642 does the job, however there is one subject that few consider - how fast and accurate are double taps.
With some of these small handguns, after the first shot, your second shot is delayed because the you have lost your optimum grip or the trigger pull is so hard and long you can't stay on target.
What do you guys say about your 642's?
For your consideration:
The New York Police Department did a study from 1854 to 1979, about armed encounters wherew 254 officers died from wounds. (http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/Combat.htm)
Their findings are:
1) The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than
15 feet.
Contact to 3 feet ... 34%
3 feet to 6 feet ...... 47%
6 feet to 15 feet ..... 9%
2) The majority of incidents occurred in poor lighting conditions. None
occurred in what could be called total darkness. It was noted that
flashlights were not used as a marksmanship aid. Also, dim light firing
involves another element which is different from full light firing, muzzle
flash.
3) Firearms accounted for only 60% of the attacks on police. However, in the 254 cases of officers killed in an armed encounter, firearms were used in 90% (230) of them, and knives in 5% (11).
4) In all cases reviewed, an unauthorized or gimmick holster (ankle, shoulder, skeleton, fast draw, clip-on etc.) was involved when the revolver was lost, accidentally discharged, or the officer was disarmed.
5) In 70% of the cases reviewed, sight alignment was not used. Officers
reported that they used instinctive or point shooting.
6) 65% of the officers who had knowledge of impending danger, had their
revolvers drawn and ready. "Don't draw your gun and point it
at anyone unless you intend to shoot" is a tactical blunder.
7) Reports on incidents involving police death revealed that the officer was
alone more often than not and that he was confronted by at least two people.
8) The element reported as the single most important factor in the officer's
survival during an armed confrontation was cover.
9) In 84% of the cases reviewed, the officer was in a standing or crouch
position (supported and unsupported) when he fired.
10) Officers, with an occasional exception, fired with the strong hand. The value of placing heavy emphasis on weak hand shooting during training and
qualification is subject to question.
11) The double action technique was used in 90% of the situations and used almost without exceptions in close range, surprise, or immediate danger situations.
12) A warning shot may set off chain reaction firing. Firing while running changes the situation from one where skill has a bearing into one in which the outcome depends on pure chance. It endangers the officer unnecessarily by depleting his ammunition supply, and increases the chance of shooting innocent persons who may be present.
13) The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged.
14) The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.
15) In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action. In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading.
16) In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition, caliber, or velocity of the bullet. Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough to end the confrontation.
17) The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed
confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of
the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.
In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:
Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%
18) It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can
certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the
reports.
19) The US Army recognizes that there is a disconnect. Its training manual, FM23-35 Combat Training With Pistols & Revolvers (1988), calls for the use of Point Shooting for combat at less than 15 feet, and when firing at night. It does not call for using standard and traditional range marksmanship
techniques.
"The weapon should be held in a two-hand grip and brought up close to the
body until it reaches chin level. It is then thrust forward until both arms
are straight. As the weapon is thrust forward, the trigger is smoothly
squeezed to the rear. The arms and body form a triangle which can be aimed
as a unit."
Target Focused shooting is taught to the CHP. It is similar to the shooting
methods of Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate, in that the sights are not used
in close quarters aiming.
According to the NRA's Guide To The Basics Of Personal Protection In The Home that was published in 2000. "...the ability to keep all shots on a standard 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper at seven yards, hitting in the center of exposed mass, is sufficient for most defensive purposes."
And per the stats, if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 80% chance that that will happen at less than 15 feet. So using a method to aim and shoot that is natural, fast, and accurate makes life over death sense.
Thanks for the welcome!
308win, I'm sorry to say we didn't get that far. They were so busy that by the time my brother and I got to talk to a salesman and picked out our pistols, we were on a time crunch and had to head home. The Fin is about 1 1/2 hrs for me, but always worth the drive. Have you tried The Sportsman's Den in Shelby?
I've been dry firing the 642 trying to get used to the trigger pull. It is definately different than what I've been used too!
308win, I'm sorry to say we didn't get that far. They were so busy that by the time my brother and I got to talk to a salesman and picked out our pistols, we were on a time crunch and had to head home. The Fin is about 1 1/2 hrs for me, but always worth the drive. Have you tried The Sportsman's Den in Shelby?
I've been dry firing the 642 trying to get used to the trigger pull. It is definately different than what I've been used too!
motorcycle-charlie
Member
AMAZON SHOOTER, only you can determine what gun will fit your hand well. the 642/442 fits many hands great and second shots are no problem.the small .380's now are getting really too small. i am not a big guy but the Ruger LCP .380 just doesnt feel right for me. it seems too small for any real controll, but others really like it. with a 642/442 there are many aftermarket grip options to fit almost any hand perfectly. in my opinion the x42s are a perfect balance between stopping power, weight for all day carry, reliability, and general concealability. it is a very popular weapon for good reason. i vote 642/442. good luck on your decision.
armabill
Member
I had mine for about a year now. I wasn't going to get one but it was such a good deal that I couldn't pass it up.
AStone
Member
That says it nicely.
Last night, in a thread about the Kahr K9, I explained that I loved my Kahr K9, but replaced it with a 642 because for me, the K9 was just a bit too heavy for comfortable all day/evening carry.
As for grips, if you read back in this thread (or parts 1 and 2), you'll find that my 642 wears a set of full-sized (3-finger) Hogue Monogrips that allow me even greater control. They work for me because mine is OWB; I never pocket carry.
rdrancher
Member
Happy New Year to All!
I'm back at the casa after a 20-hr straight run to Cali and a 40-hr return trip. Horses and kids do not make for a quicky trip!
My 642 sat at the ready there and back (just like it does everyday), but loaded for the trip with Buffalo Bore standard pressure LSWC-HC's. While I was there I shot a few cylinder loads of SWC's out at the future in-laws desert home. I don't know if that's even legal in Cali anymore! Seems like there's a law for everything out there these days. I love Cali (lived there most of my life), but it's sure great to be back in the great state of Texas!
rd
I'm back at the casa after a 20-hr straight run to Cali and a 40-hr return trip. Horses and kids do not make for a quicky trip!
My 642 sat at the ready there and back (just like it does everyday), but loaded for the trip with Buffalo Bore standard pressure LSWC-HC's. While I was there I shot a few cylinder loads of SWC's out at the future in-laws desert home. I don't know if that's even legal in Cali anymore! Seems like there's a law for everything out there these days. I love Cali (lived there most of my life), but it's sure great to be back in the great state of Texas!
rd
Camjr
Member
Welcome back to the Land of the Free...
DAdams
Member
Welcome
to Amazon Shooter who says:
I don't know what your carry method is going to be or your size constraints.
I guess if I were carrying exclusively OWB or IWB and weren't concerned with deep concealment and was concerned with more than 2.5 double taps I would consider a semiauto in 9mm something that would provide 7+ rounds of 9mm or 3.5 double taps and a somewhat lighter but slightly longer trigger.
I'm curios Amazon...what do you have available for handguns manufactured in Country and do you have gun smith services readily available? Who would do service if something goes wrong with a US manufactured item?
There is certainly not going to be a problem with double taps once you and the X42 become one, and it is broken in.
As Nem says:
and OhiaBoy welcome to you too.
rd glad you made it home ok. Hauling around kids and horses...you must have the patience of a saint.
to Amazon Shooter who says:
I don't know what your carry method is going to be or your size constraints.
I guess if I were carrying exclusively OWB or IWB and weren't concerned with deep concealment and was concerned with more than 2.5 double taps I would consider a semiauto in 9mm something that would provide 7+ rounds of 9mm or 3.5 double taps and a somewhat lighter but slightly longer trigger.
I'm curios Amazon...what do you have available for handguns manufactured in Country and do you have gun smith services readily available? Who would do service if something goes wrong with a US manufactured item?
There is certainly not going to be a problem with double taps once you and the X42 become one, and it is broken in.
As Nem says:
With these grips you won't have to worry about loosing yours.
and OhiaBoy welcome to you too.
rd glad you made it home ok. Hauling around kids and horses...you must have the patience of a saint.
Last edited:
motorcycle-charlie
Member
like many, i stand with the 135gr +p SGDSB. great accuracy, plenty of punching power, and very controllable with one hand shots. strong hand or weak hand which i feel is a very important drill to practice. there i a very good chance that one hand or the other will be busy fending off an attacker while you go for your gun. it seems like criminals really like to come at you fast and unexpectedly. practice one handed shots often.
I just purchased a 642 yesterday! I am really excited about using her as a BUG or my primary when I don't feel like toting my Glock around.
Am officially part of the club
I do have a few questions about revolver carrying safety. With my glock, I am never worried about accidental discharge. My holster covers the trigger and there is a safety in the trigger. There is also a firing pin safety on the Glock which would prevent accidental discharge say I drop it or something.
With the 642, is it safe to carry without worrying about accidental discharge?
I know it has a long and heavy trigger. I guess this reduces the chance of the trigger being accidentally pulled.
Is there any internal hammer block?
From what I hear from some older gentlemen that I talk to, they used to carry their revolvers with one empty chamber to prevent the hammer from hitting the primer.
I am trying to read the 642 club postings but man there are sooooo many!
Am officially part of the club
I do have a few questions about revolver carrying safety. With my glock, I am never worried about accidental discharge. My holster covers the trigger and there is a safety in the trigger. There is also a firing pin safety on the Glock which would prevent accidental discharge say I drop it or something.
With the 642, is it safe to carry without worrying about accidental discharge?
I know it has a long and heavy trigger. I guess this reduces the chance of the trigger being accidentally pulled.
Is there any internal hammer block?
From what I hear from some older gentlemen that I talk to, they used to carry their revolvers with one empty chamber to prevent the hammer from hitting the primer.
I am trying to read the 642 club postings but man there are sooooo many!
308win
Member
At the risk of stating the obvious your 642 is DA only. If you pocket carry use a good pocket holster that covers the trigger and don't carry anything else in that pocket and you won't have to worry about ADs. Keep your finger off the trigger until you clear your pocket and you won't have to worry about NDs. Actuation of the trigger is required to fire the 642 (the hammer isn't precocked) so there is no need for a hammer block. For the same reason there is no need to carry on an empty chamber because the only way the 642can fire is by actuating the trigger. It won't discharge if you drop it
Thanks 308win.
I already cleaned it using Break Free (I hope that is ok with the finish). I never had a problem on other firearms.
On my Ruger GP100 I always use a dab of thin oil on the ejector rod but I saw a youtube video where the guy said you want it clean and dry and not to use oil.
Should I use any oil on the ejector rod?
Where else should I oil?
I already cleaned it using Break Free (I hope that is ok with the finish). I never had a problem on other firearms.
On my Ruger GP100 I always use a dab of thin oil on the ejector rod but I saw a youtube video where the guy said you want it clean and dry and not to use oil.
Should I use any oil on the ejector rod?
Where else should I oil?
308win
Member
Pull the side plate and clean the action parts. I looked for bad machine marks that needed touching up at the same time (don't mess with the sear). I also used compressed air to dislodge any grunge. Reassemble and try dry firing it a few hundred times. Then clean action again and lightly oil the pivot points and lightly grease the sliding surfaces. You don't want to use a lot of lubricant if you are pocket carrying. I wipe down the outside with CleanzOil occasionally; Rusty's Rags also work well and Brownells has them featured right now.
442 vs 442 Pro
Hi everyone, I am about to buy a 442 and noticed the 442 Pro is just $30 more (neither has the dreaded lock). I did a search and found out the only difference is that the 442 Pro's cylinder is cut to accept moon clips but I was wondering if it would work with loose rounds too. Anybody on here can confirm / deny that?
Given the small price difference I'm leaning towards the 442 Pro:http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstor...1 - Model 442 Cylinder cut for moon clips.pdf
Hi everyone, I am about to buy a 442 and noticed the 442 Pro is just $30 more (neither has the dreaded lock). I did a search and found out the only difference is that the 442 Pro's cylinder is cut to accept moon clips but I was wondering if it would work with loose rounds too. Anybody on here can confirm / deny that?
Given the small price difference I'm leaning towards the 442 Pro:http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstor...1 - Model 442 Cylinder cut for moon clips.pdf
amazon shooter
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 37
Thanks for your interest DAdams. To answer your questions:
We civilians are allowed to carry for self defense .38 caliber weapons, that includes 38 special, 38 super, .380 and everything with a smaller diameter. We can not carry for self defense military calibers (9mm) and magnum loads (.357 mag.) however, we can have them for sporting purposes (target practice).
There are no handguns manufactured here, but you can legally buy just about anything you want. If you need servicing, you learn to become a gunsmith or you get written authorization to send the gun to the States for servicing.
Bullets cost $1 each, so I will roll my own.
We civilians are allowed to carry for self defense .38 caliber weapons, that includes 38 special, 38 super, .380 and everything with a smaller diameter. We can not carry for self defense military calibers (9mm) and magnum loads (.357 mag.) however, we can have them for sporting purposes (target practice).
There are no handguns manufactured here, but you can legally buy just about anything you want. If you need servicing, you learn to become a gunsmith or you get written authorization to send the gun to the States for servicing.
Bullets cost $1 each, so I will roll my own.
DAdams
Member
Amazon
Thanks for shedding light on the personal defense and gun ownership nuances in your Country. You refer to Latin America, which Country do you reside. Doesn't BERSA manufacture in Argentina? They make some nice .380s.
Nothing wrong with:
.38 spl plus P and certainly an auto in .38 Super.
Being able to work on your own guns.
Rolling your own!
Welcome to:
ilsrwy27
joepa150
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for shedding light on the personal defense and gun ownership nuances in your Country. You refer to Latin America, which Country do you reside. Doesn't BERSA manufacture in Argentina? They make some nice .380s.
Nothing wrong with:
.38 spl plus P and certainly an auto in .38 Super.
Being able to work on your own guns.
Rolling your own!
Welcome to:
ilsrwy27
joepa150
Thanks for joining us.
Rd,
May I ask how you carry in the car? I just got my 642 and I plan to use a pocket holster but I imagine it would be uncomfortable on long trips. Any suggestions? I'm in my car quite a bit.
DAdams
Member
Car Carry
State Laws must be considered and your State License (reciprocity) relative to the roads and States whence you travel.
Other than that you can carry any way you are comfortable. I often have my (carry item) in the console, on the seat, in the glovebox, in my pocket when I get out etc. Just know your status relative to State and Federal Laws you are traveling.
State Laws must be considered and your State License (reciprocity) relative to the roads and States whence you travel.
Other than that you can carry any way you are comfortable. I often have my (carry item) in the console, on the seat, in the glovebox, in my pocket when I get out etc. Just know your status relative to State and Federal Laws you are traveling.
Camjr
Member
Not RD, but I'll respond. When seated, it's very difficult to draw from the pocket. I take the 642 and holster out of my pocket and wedge it between the seat and center console. It rides nice and tight and can't be seen if I'm in the seat. If I get out of the car, it goes back in the pocket.
If driving with cargo shorts or cargo pants, I just carry the gun and holster in my right side cargo pocket along my thigh -- very easy to get to.
Cheers!
308win
Member
Pocket carry isn't the best choice when you are seated.
In Ohio, if you are concealed carrying in an automobile the firearm must be either on your person or in a closed container or the console/glove box; having it in a holster and easily accessible but not on your person is not an option.
In Ohio, if you are concealed carrying in an automobile the firearm must be either on your person or in a closed container or the console/glove box; having it in a holster and easily accessible but not on your person is not an option.
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