Shotgun or Carbine?
- Thread starter amprecon
- Start date
- Status
Yep, that's why it's nice to have a little extra capability in the tank if possible. Just the threat of body armor is enough to point me towards the carbine.
Inebriated
Member
I voted Carbine for general use, but I would want to know what the situation was first. In a building, Shotgun. Open urban area, Carbine. Riots, Shotgun. All depends on the situation.
Zach S
Member
Federal buck patterns very well, I use it in my HD shotgun for that reason.
However, pattern size aside, its easier to get hits with longarm than it is a pistol. Which is why, at one point, I used a 9mm AR for HD, rather than a glock chambered in the same cartridge.
M2 Carbine
member
I would suggest that people who count on shotguns for HD, test the pattern of their shotguns at the maximum distance the gun would be used.
If there is not a light or laser/light mounted on the shotgun I would suggest practicing handling the gun, shooting, opening doors, etc, while carrying a flashlight. Practice in the dark if possible.
I figure the chances of me having to use the shotgun will be after dark, so my HD shotguns (pistols and rifles) are equipped with Streamlight TLR-2 laser lights.
If there is not a light or laser/light mounted on the shotgun I would suggest practicing handling the gun, shooting, opening doors, etc, while carrying a flashlight. Practice in the dark if possible.
I figure the chances of me having to use the shotgun will be after dark, so my HD shotguns (pistols and rifles) are equipped with Streamlight TLR-2 laser lights.
I think that we need to define what "defensive" means and what range we are talking about actually needing to defend ourselves. What someone in the military considers as a defensive range is not a civilian defensive range for most.
For most of us a defensive situations would occur at under 50 feet. This is typical for most home owners having to deal with threats in the home or on their lot.
The next increment in distance might be 100 ft. if you live in a semi rural area with a large residential lot where someone might be on the property posing a realistic threat (as opposed to someone just trespassing or engaged in some more serious non-violent crime). Much beyond that range you have to ask yourself what realistic threats are there.
In a rural setting you may be faced with ranges from 100 yards out to 300 yards.
The most common defensive situation will be the standard residential/small lot environment with the longer range situations become progressively less likely.
If these categories are accepted, at the most common range we'd have to deal with the shotgun or the carbine have equal footing for accuracy since any shotgun has to be aimed to be effective for the most common situation faced by a civilian. The shotgun may have superior stopping power for this situation as well.
In the second category I think the shotgun and carbine are still on equal footing for accuracy when slugs are used in the shotgun and the shotgun is aimed. The shotgun still delivers more energy on target than the carbine within the 100 ft. range. The carbine has the significant advantage of having a greater ammunition capacity when compared to the shotgun, but self defense situations are not fire fights where a high volume of fire is exchanged (regardless of what TV and movies and games have "taught" us).
In the third category the carbine outperforms the shotgun in almost any sense, but hardly any of us have those sorts of ranges on our property.
For most of us a defensive situations would occur at under 50 feet. This is typical for most home owners having to deal with threats in the home or on their lot.
The next increment in distance might be 100 ft. if you live in a semi rural area with a large residential lot where someone might be on the property posing a realistic threat (as opposed to someone just trespassing or engaged in some more serious non-violent crime). Much beyond that range you have to ask yourself what realistic threats are there.
In a rural setting you may be faced with ranges from 100 yards out to 300 yards.
The most common defensive situation will be the standard residential/small lot environment with the longer range situations become progressively less likely.
If these categories are accepted, at the most common range we'd have to deal with the shotgun or the carbine have equal footing for accuracy since any shotgun has to be aimed to be effective for the most common situation faced by a civilian. The shotgun may have superior stopping power for this situation as well.
In the second category I think the shotgun and carbine are still on equal footing for accuracy when slugs are used in the shotgun and the shotgun is aimed. The shotgun still delivers more energy on target than the carbine within the 100 ft. range. The carbine has the significant advantage of having a greater ammunition capacity when compared to the shotgun, but self defense situations are not fire fights where a high volume of fire is exchanged (regardless of what TV and movies and games have "taught" us).
In the third category the carbine outperforms the shotgun in almost any sense, but hardly any of us have those sorts of ranges on our property.
Last edited:
BHP FAN
Member
that was my point, but a lot better said.
I see shotguns as having one main advantage over carbines, power. The effects of a slug on target are most impressive. A second advantage is price. I can get a shotgun I would feel good about using defensively for a couple hundred dollars. For an AR I'd be looking at around $800. For an AK probably close to $500. I own shotguns, like shotguns, and would feel well armed for just about any defensive situation I'm realistically going to find myself in.
That said, I have been swayed more and more to using a carbine if I have the choice. I see a proper carbine as having the following advantages:\
1. weight: My defensive shotguns weigh more than my defensive carbines. I feel like I can use either but the lighter gun is handier and faster. Importantly, my 105 lbs girlfriend can much more easily wield a nice light AR.
2. Size: related to the above a carbine is typically going to be smaller which again makes it a faster handling weapon. You can get an SBS but unless you are using a box mag fed gun one starts losing capacity as well. Further if an SBS is an option so is an SBR.
3. Manual of arms: I think I carbine is easier to really run well than the majority of shotguns.
4. Over penetration: A carbine with the proper load poses less risk than any load I would use in a shotgun for defensive purposes.
5. Ammo capacity: shotguns are low capacity weapons. One is probably looking at 7-8 rounds in the gun. That may well be enough. I don't get to choose my gun fight though and I am not going to make assumptions that I can not be certain are true. For that reason, within reason, more ammo is better IMHO. A carbine can hold 20-30+. Also a spare mag means another 20-30+. A tube gun might be able to carry another 8-10 rounds on it.
6. Ability to suppress: The only effective shotgun suppressors I've seen have resulted in pretty large weapons. One can put a can on a AR and be below or near the 18.5" barrel a shotgun has. A suppressor has a serious benefits on a defensive weapon.
7. Less recoil. A carbine is faster to make followup shots and transition from one target to the next. Again it is also more manageable for many than a shotgun shooting slugs or buckshot.
8. Ability to penetrate soft armor. This may never be needed, but again I don't get to pick my gun fight.
A rifle has more range but that is not really a concern for almost anything that will be seen as a justifiable shooting.
A rifle is more precise but this shouldn't be much of a concern at realistic self defense distances.
Also one could largely negate the power advantage of a shotgun by picking a powerful carbine that would otherwise largely retain the other advantages of a carbine. Say a .458 socom AR or the like.
In sum, I have both. I've trained with both. I would feel comfortable with either but if I had my druthers it would be a suppressed carbine.
Carbines with the right loads over penetrate less than shotguns with viable defensive loads.
Although a slightly different context I'll just add that none of the swat guys I know use shotguns for anything other than breaching doors (well actually one told me its his choice for shooting dogs). They are using MP5s, G36s, and various AR/M4 carbines.
That said, I have been swayed more and more to using a carbine if I have the choice. I see a proper carbine as having the following advantages:\
1. weight: My defensive shotguns weigh more than my defensive carbines. I feel like I can use either but the lighter gun is handier and faster. Importantly, my 105 lbs girlfriend can much more easily wield a nice light AR.
2. Size: related to the above a carbine is typically going to be smaller which again makes it a faster handling weapon. You can get an SBS but unless you are using a box mag fed gun one starts losing capacity as well. Further if an SBS is an option so is an SBR.
3. Manual of arms: I think I carbine is easier to really run well than the majority of shotguns.
4. Over penetration: A carbine with the proper load poses less risk than any load I would use in a shotgun for defensive purposes.
5. Ammo capacity: shotguns are low capacity weapons. One is probably looking at 7-8 rounds in the gun. That may well be enough. I don't get to choose my gun fight though and I am not going to make assumptions that I can not be certain are true. For that reason, within reason, more ammo is better IMHO. A carbine can hold 20-30+. Also a spare mag means another 20-30+. A tube gun might be able to carry another 8-10 rounds on it.
6. Ability to suppress: The only effective shotgun suppressors I've seen have resulted in pretty large weapons. One can put a can on a AR and be below or near the 18.5" barrel a shotgun has. A suppressor has a serious benefits on a defensive weapon.
7. Less recoil. A carbine is faster to make followup shots and transition from one target to the next. Again it is also more manageable for many than a shotgun shooting slugs or buckshot.
8. Ability to penetrate soft armor. This may never be needed, but again I don't get to pick my gun fight.
A rifle has more range but that is not really a concern for almost anything that will be seen as a justifiable shooting.
A rifle is more precise but this shouldn't be much of a concern at realistic self defense distances.
Also one could largely negate the power advantage of a shotgun by picking a powerful carbine that would otherwise largely retain the other advantages of a carbine. Say a .458 socom AR or the like.
In sum, I have both. I've trained with both. I would feel comfortable with either but if I had my druthers it would be a suppressed carbine.
Carbines with the right loads over penetrate less than shotguns with viable defensive loads.
Although a slightly different context I'll just add that none of the swat guys I know use shotguns for anything other than breaching doors (well actually one told me its his choice for shooting dogs). They are using MP5s, G36s, and various AR/M4 carbines.
Last edited:
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Owen Sparks said:
Maybe I'm just super-human; but I've fired an AR indoors (inside a small concrete room no less) without ear protection. It isn't pleasant and it isn't something I would want to do often; but I wasn't functionally deaf for any period of time.
Realistically, both a shotgun and a carbine are fairly effective defensive arms. Mindset and training is going to be the important factor, not the weapon used.
Without a doubt a shotgun. I have shot deer at over 100 yards with a smooth bore shotgun using foster slugs. I have seen my father shoot deer at over 200 yards twice with a 16 gauge Browning. A shotgun may not be quite as accurate as a carbine, but if you hit something with a foster slug, it's going down...I don't care if it's a leg, arm, foot or hand...they are going down in pain. Carbines just don't have the knock down power. Also a shotgun even shooting buckshot when you compare that to a carbine...no contest...it's the shotgun. Even the standard 2-3/4" for each pull of the trigger is sending (9) .33 caliber pellets down range with one pull of the trigger on your shotgun. Within 50 yards, that is absolutely lethal as compared to anything from a carbine unless you have your hands on a fully automatic and even then I would side with the shotgun!
"And there's another old sayin' Senator.....don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'"!
"And there's another old sayin' Senator.....don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'"!
Last edited:
Deaf Smith
Member
While I have 12 gauge shooties (and made for combat), ARs, AK, Mini-14, M1 Carbine and have owned FALs, M1A, and others I prefer the M1 Carbine. I even prefer it to the pistol carbines (9mm, .40, .45.)
Short, very light, well past .357 magnum in power, plenty of ammo, low noise, low blast, low flash, and as Jim Cirrillo pointed out in the NYPD stakeout squad, it was their best stopper. From prone I can get 10 out of 10 head shots at 100 yards, and can easily shoot from the hip or underarm position. And my Ruger 10/22 with apenditure sight mimics it on the range.
And my wife can handle the Carbine very easily, something she can't do well with my 18 inch 12 pump.
And that is why it's my favorite, inside and outside the house.
Deaf
Short, very light, well past .357 magnum in power, plenty of ammo, low noise, low blast, low flash, and as Jim Cirrillo pointed out in the NYPD stakeout squad, it was their best stopper. From prone I can get 10 out of 10 head shots at 100 yards, and can easily shoot from the hip or underarm position. And my Ruger 10/22 with apenditure sight mimics it on the range.
And my wife can handle the Carbine very easily, something she can't do well with my 18 inch 12 pump.
And that is why it's my favorite, inside and outside the house.
Deaf
Mike1234567
member
RE Foster Slugs and One Shot They're Down: Nope. My neighbor shot an 80+ pound feral hog just two days ago. Told me he hit it below the spine and above the shoulders. It ran off and he had to hit it again with a better heart/lung shot. That was 20ga but "shooda" been enough especially at less than 20 yards. Nope.
Trained with and own both pump guns and ARs. Have carried both professionally.
I still think I lean toward a carbine.
Less recoil and faster followup shots
More accurate
Works well against soft body armor
LESS penetration through interior walls than slug OR buck loads. (Unless of course I swap magazines for penetrator rounds . . . )
More ammunition
Excellent terminal performance
Easily added lights for night-time target identification
and one last good reason
My wife and daughter are comfortable shooting the carbine
I still think I lean toward a carbine.
Less recoil and faster followup shots
More accurate
Works well against soft body armor
LESS penetration through interior walls than slug OR buck loads. (Unless of course I swap magazines for penetrator rounds . . . )
More ammunition
Excellent terminal performance
Easily added lights for night-time target identification
and one last good reason
My wife and daughter are comfortable shooting the carbine
Kachok
Member
Compact 12ga tactical, auto or pump with #4-0 buckshot. Absolutly deadly at close range, drasticly reduced chance of over panatration vs carbines or slugs for home defence, reduced recoil buckshot is available for women and the recoil shy. The multiple wound tracts of buckshot is more effective then the single large wound from slugs, much higher chance of striking heart or CNS. The combined momentum of all those pellets makes for a much harder impact then any bullet from a carbine.
Kachok
Member
Because lead buckshot flattens as soon as it strikes anything as hard as water. There are pistol bullets that fragment on impact, and won't overpenatrate, but their sucess rate is kind of weak. Truth of the matter is 24 pellets striking a several inch wide area is much more likley to strike somthing vital then one large projectile going through, most SD experts highly recomend them.
Bobson
Member
More importantly than the increased chance of striking a vital, we have Hydrostatic Shock...
Oh wait.
Kachok
Member
I am not big on the hydrostatic shock thing. FBI stats show shock as having a very low sucess rate. I like to think of it like hitting my target with 24 small caliber bullets all at the same time, kind of hard to miss everything vital with that many wounds. You could likley hit spine/heart/lungs and brain in one upper torso shot. The chances of missing all of them with a well aimed shot is like winning the lottery.
montgomery381
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
I agree with warp. For a defensive situation against a person a shotgun with "00" is a great choice. The range that a carbine can accurately hit at is of no value in a defensive situation. As for four legged threats (i.e. bears) a slug would also be very effective. I mean if you were in a state or national park and shot a bear at 30 yards because you felt threatened I would bet there would be a could chance that you would be charged with crime. Another thing on that is that alot of guides for African lion hunts will carry a shotgun in case the animal charges. Carbines are meant for hunting and combat. Both are situations where a long distance between you and the target is an advantage.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I have both shotty and pistol round carbine (9mm & .45acp). either carbine will hit grapefruit @ 100 yds offhand regularly.
I keep my 12ga leaned in near corner by nitelite and 9mm hung on wall peg (20rd mag) above it. I'll go with either one. shotty more at nite I suppose.
M1 carbine may outshine both - but not by a helluva lot.
I keep my 12ga leaned in near corner by nitelite and 9mm hung on wall peg (20rd mag) above it. I'll go with either one. shotty more at nite I suppose.
M1 carbine may outshine both - but not by a helluva lot.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Since this is gun-centric, singularly focused on choosing hardware and not strategies, tactics or training, I'm moving it to General...
lpl
lpl
Why are we suddenly only talking about pistol bullets? Nothing in the word carbine limits it to a weapon firing pistol bullets. There are rifle rounds available for everything from 5.56 to 7.62x39 to 7.62x51 that have devastating effects on target and yet pose less risk of over penetration than buckshot or slugs.
Source? BTW, I'd like it in large part so I can try to understand what the argument you are attempting to is exactly.
Care to name names? Loius Awerbuck stocks his defensive shotgun with slugs. Chris Costa and Travis Haley both talk about how they don't recommend a shotgun for HD. They make these comments on their shotgun training DVD no less. I know Larry Corriea told me his go to was an AR (and trust me he can run a shotgun).
I'm interested to know your basis for saying most SD trainers recommend not only a shotgun (something I'm not sure is even true) and further that they advocate the load you've stated. Thanks.
sean m
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 576
I keep both on hand.
Since I live in an urban apartment, I keep a Ruger P95 with a white light attached beside the bed, if I need something for further A Ruger PC9 is sitting in the corner next to the fire extinguisher. With this pistol and carbine setup that gives me 31 rounds on tap and with the 2 mags on the carbinse stock and the two spare mags for the pistol that ups it to 91.
Now in the kitchen a Remington 870 express stays in the pantry, while a Ruger P93 stays in one of the counter drawers.
Since I live in an urban apartment, I keep a Ruger P95 with a white light attached beside the bed, if I need something for further A Ruger PC9 is sitting in the corner next to the fire extinguisher. With this pistol and carbine setup that gives me 31 rounds on tap and with the 2 mags on the carbinse stock and the two spare mags for the pistol that ups it to 91.
Now in the kitchen a Remington 870 express stays in the pantry, while a Ruger P93 stays in one of the counter drawers.
Firemedic56
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
- Messages
- 61
As has been repeatedly stated, it depends.
I would vote carbine if I could pick any carbine I wanted, but since money is always an issue I vote shotgun, more bang for the buck and more adaptable.
I also think, as has been stated repeatedly, defensive is a very ambiguous word that means different things to different people...
Take the body armor comments, for me... I'm never going to be confronted with a armored assailant in "defensive" situations. For some, maybe. For me, not likely.
Distance? Well it's going to be under 100ft, more than likely under 50 ft so a shotgun is fine for me and fulfills it's role better than a carbine would.
Power? I can go from rubber sabots to shot to 00 to slugs... Carbine can't do that.
Realistically, I don't care what "SD" experts say whether is it pro or con shotgun. It is what I feel comfortable using in what I consider "defensive" circumstances. I'm fully capable of using a carbine but for the price of any carbine currently on my wish list I could almost put a cheap yet reliable shotgun in every room of the house...
I would vote carbine if I could pick any carbine I wanted, but since money is always an issue I vote shotgun, more bang for the buck and more adaptable.
I also think, as has been stated repeatedly, defensive is a very ambiguous word that means different things to different people...
Take the body armor comments, for me... I'm never going to be confronted with a armored assailant in "defensive" situations. For some, maybe. For me, not likely.
Distance? Well it's going to be under 100ft, more than likely under 50 ft so a shotgun is fine for me and fulfills it's role better than a carbine would.
Power? I can go from rubber sabots to shot to 00 to slugs... Carbine can't do that.
Realistically, I don't care what "SD" experts say whether is it pro or con shotgun. It is what I feel comfortable using in what I consider "defensive" circumstances. I'm fully capable of using a carbine but for the price of any carbine currently on my wish list I could almost put a cheap yet reliable shotgun in every room of the house...
It's fairly common for criminals to wear armor. You can google it and read the stories. And I'd venture to guess that better prepared and better armed criminals are also the ones more likely to be wearing armor.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked