Yes .45 subsonic round from platform capable handling reduced velocity load reliably. Top pic G21.
.32 for within a room defense?
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TwoWheelFiend
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from the Buffalo Bore website
"The 32 ACP auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society as a defensive cartridge, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 32 ACP suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and examined nearly all available 32 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.
Here's the problem. The current 32 ACP frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks sufficient penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face, with modern, frangible 32 ACP ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek. I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the pain, as that frangible bullet would have stopped somewhere in my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible bullet and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and won't know that part of his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So, whatever 32 ACP ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 32 ACP is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down instantly. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your loved ones, is to shut down the attacker instantly."
"The 32 ACP auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society as a defensive cartridge, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 32 ACP suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and examined nearly all available 32 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.
Here's the problem. The current 32 ACP frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks sufficient penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face, with modern, frangible 32 ACP ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek. I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the pain, as that frangible bullet would have stopped somewhere in my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible bullet and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and won't know that part of his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So, whatever 32 ACP ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 32 ACP is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down instantly. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your loved ones, is to shut down the attacker instantly."
Deaf Smith
Member
And hence in my P32 I use FMJ ammo only so as penetration is assured.
It ain't no powerhouse but that P32 slips into Hot Jocks for carrying while walking in the park wearing jogging attire.
But for house defense, I'd use my Beretta 935 .32 auto. All steel, SA trigger, and easy to shoot well.
Deaf
It ain't no powerhouse but that P32 slips into Hot Jocks for carrying while walking in the park wearing jogging attire.
But for house defense, I'd use my Beretta 935 .32 auto. All steel, SA trigger, and easy to shoot well.
Deaf
sgt127
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Devils advocate. Every one agrees a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck, is a superb man stopper. 9 .33 cal balls at about 1100 FPS (kind off off the top of my head, but, around there)
A Walther PP . 32 ACP will launch 9 (approx) .32 caliber balls at around 1000 FPS.
The Walther has very low recoil and fast shooting. And, you easily dump a mag into a target at close range.
Now, I generally carry a Sig P239 in 357 SIG or a 3" 65 with full house magnums, I'm not suggesting every one should run out and carry a .32, but, in capable hands, a good .32 is still pretty formidable. Sort of.
I will occasionally drop a Walther PPK in my pocket, loaded with Geco ball ammo.
A Walther PP . 32 ACP will launch 9 (approx) .32 caliber balls at around 1000 FPS.
The Walther has very low recoil and fast shooting. And, you easily dump a mag into a target at close range.
Now, I generally carry a Sig P239 in 357 SIG or a 3" 65 with full house magnums, I'm not suggesting every one should run out and carry a .32, but, in capable hands, a good .32 is still pretty formidable. Sort of.
I will occasionally drop a Walther PPK in my pocket, loaded with Geco ball ammo.
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Walt Sherrill
Member
The speed with which that Walther PP launches all NINE of those little .32 balls is quite different than the speed with which nine .33 balls would be delivered from the shotgun.
In fact, the shotgun might be able to send 3-7 times MORE of those lead balls in the attacker's direction in roughly the same time frame -- depending on the gun's mechanism and whether it has an extended magazine.
I would argue, too, that the likelihood of getting a debilitating CNS hit on the the attacker is arguably many times greater with the shotgun, particularly if the attacker is moving rapidly.
I'd argue that the comparison is interesting but meaningless.
As someone else noted, for HOME DEFENSE, you don't need a concealable weapon. For concealed carry, a shotgun just doesn't cut it...
Yep, but the thread is about defense inside a room.
And shotguns shine at that.
Unless there is some reason why the .32 is the only choice, spend the $150 - $200 on a used shotgun and be much better protected. Keep the .32 for CCW use - it's not too bad for that depending on the gun.
That's about all I have to add to the conversation.
And shotguns shine at that.
Unless there is some reason why the .32 is the only choice, spend the $150 - $200 on a used shotgun and be much better protected. Keep the .32 for CCW use - it's not too bad for that depending on the gun.
That's about all I have to add to the conversation.
IBEWBULL
Member
.38
I am a wheel gun fan and the J frame seems to have a great history and the ,38 LSWCHP 158 grain seems to have gotten the job done for a long time.
Unless a .32 ACP was my only option I would pass. The larger .32 like a PPK,SIG , Beretta or Colt would be more accurate and give more velocity and foot pounds. But size wise give no advantage over a compact ( mm or a J frame.
I think everything has been covered in this thread and can't think of any new revelations. Did I miss the Buffalo Bore recommendations in the steel frame guns?
In a 32 choosing between penetration and possible expansion I would go silver tip and Buffalo Bore every other round.
Good luck. I will take a 38
I am a wheel gun fan and the J frame seems to have a great history and the ,38 LSWCHP 158 grain seems to have gotten the job done for a long time.
Unless a .32 ACP was my only option I would pass. The larger .32 like a PPK,SIG , Beretta or Colt would be more accurate and give more velocity and foot pounds. But size wise give no advantage over a compact ( mm or a J frame.
I think everything has been covered in this thread and can't think of any new revelations. Did I miss the Buffalo Bore recommendations in the steel frame guns?
In a 32 choosing between penetration and possible expansion I would go silver tip and Buffalo Bore every other round.
Good luck. I will take a 38
Walt Sherrill
Member
PRM said:
Well, it would appear YOU watch "Walking Dead," at least.
Head shots are frequently mentioned when folks talk about using .32s. Seems to be the target of choice. In this case, the scenario to which you are responding seems apt.
Are we to assume that you will make your home defense and gun purchase decisions based on a belief that any persons (increasingly common) breaking into YOUR house are rational, fearful, not experienced, not armed (and possibly overconfident because of it), and NOT motivated by financial objectives or chemical needs you know nothing about?
Zombies aren't real.
I'm not sure I would use advertising copy or events portrayed in movies as arguments for or against an idea. 
Suffice to say, .32 ACP is a wonderful cartridge to both shoot and reload, and it's better than nothing. However, there are better options which anyone who is relatively well-read (with respect to firearms and personal defense) should know about.
The pellets from 12 gauge 00 buck weigh slightly less (54 grains vs 60 or 71, iirc) and are traveling substantially faster than .32 acp (1300+ fps vs 800-900 fps; 18"+ bbl vs. ~3" bbl). There are also 9 to 15 times as many of them per shot!
Suffice to say, .32 ACP is a wonderful cartridge to both shoot and reload, and it's better than nothing. However, there are better options which anyone who is relatively well-read (with respect to firearms and personal defense) should know about.
The pellets from 12 gauge 00 buck weigh slightly less (54 grains vs 60 or 71, iirc) and are traveling substantially faster than .32 acp (1300+ fps vs 800-900 fps; 18"+ bbl vs. ~3" bbl). There are also 9 to 15 times as many of them per shot!
PRM
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Hey Walt, lighten up and get a life. Not everybody is going to totally agree with you, me, or anyone else on the forum. Nobody said Zombies were real, but thanks for enlightening us. I'm not the one who started the scenario about massive trauma and only CNS/brain hits being effective.
Personally, I'm just glad to see someone exercising their 2nd Amendment right regardless of whether they agree with my choices or not. And, neither you or anyone else on the internet is going to have a great bearing on what I choose. The forums have a lot of great information, and a lot of biased BS to boot. Most folks are generally proficient in filtering through post(s).
All caliber threads generally end up in this vein.
If my light humor offends, I'm sorry, I'll try harder in the future
Personally, I'm just glad to see someone exercising their 2nd Amendment right regardless of whether they agree with my choices or not. And, neither you or anyone else on the internet is going to have a great bearing on what I choose. The forums have a lot of great information, and a lot of biased BS to boot. Most folks are generally proficient in filtering through post(s).
All caliber threads generally end up in this vein.
If my light humor offends, I'm sorry, I'll try harder in the future
Z1D2
Member
Thinking of a 32ACP pistol for carry. And my 380ACP carry pistol might be good for H-D.
So I'd recommend a 380. 9 and up are more power inside a home. Deafening, destructive and dangerous. Also use night lights... Be safe and careful.
So I'd recommend a 380. 9 and up are more power inside a home. Deafening, destructive and dangerous. Also use night lights... Be safe and careful.
None of those even make the 12" minimum FBI standard.
Giving up penatration for temporary cavitation is IMHO a foolish thing to do. For when it fails to stop it fails miserably IE 1986 Miami. A wound channel can only be counted on if it is sufficently deep enough to damage nessessary vitals.
In closing I'll leave this thread with this I've seen a 200# boar shot with a 130gr 270 win run 200 yards with a chest cavity that looked like cherry jello and a 160# doe shot with a 165gr 30-06 walk over the top of a pond dam for about 35 yards like nothing had happened. There was lung tissue sprayed on the grass behind where deer was hit.
you think a service caliber handgun is likely to do better LOL
Did you watch the video you posted?
Those rounds are made to drop you like a brick, not to penetrate 16 inches and leave a nice clean hole. The shrapnel from those rounds tear up you insides so that you cannot fire your gun after a shot to the chest. It's a lot more deadly to get hit by a bunch of razor blades ripping as they go, which many or the fragmentation ammo and popular hollow points do well on people. I am sure the Horneday Critical defense load in either 185 or 230 would stop someone much faster than a 32 hollow point.
Same as the Golden Sabres did, and Mag Safes.
I don't see how you can even defend a 32 against a 9,40, or 45. It's about 1/2 as lethal if shot into a non vital area. How can a 32 compete with a 45, it's just a bad idea. It's maybe a nickel vs a quarter sized hole. You better hit the guy in the brain with that round, which is hard to do when you are both running and looking for cover, you are lucky to hit the person let alone put rounds into their ear when someone is shooting at you.
I will take the larger bullet with more powder behind it any day, at least if you do get a couple of non lethal hits, they will bleed out a hell of a lot faster than with a small 32 sized hole in them.
Same as the Golden Sabres did, and Mag Safes.
I don't see how you can even defend a 32 against a 9,40, or 45. It's about 1/2 as lethal if shot into a non vital area. How can a 32 compete with a 45, it's just a bad idea. It's maybe a nickel vs a quarter sized hole. You better hit the guy in the brain with that round, which is hard to do when you are both running and looking for cover, you are lucky to hit the person let alone put rounds into their ear when someone is shooting at you.
I will take the larger bullet with more powder behind it any day, at least if you do get a couple of non lethal hits, they will bleed out a hell of a lot faster than with a small 32 sized hole in them.
That point of view completely ignores the mitigation aspect of basic risk management.
However at ease your mind may happen to be before the event, the effectiveness of the risk mitigation is not determined until the firearm is actually deployed, and if necessary, fired.
If a violent criminal actor is not stopped by you .32 ACP, than the .32 ACP did not "work for you".
How much of the shortcoming might have been due to you training and skill, to your not having been able to recognize the attack timely, to the assailant's clothing or physical or mental condition will have to be determined.
But in general, something larger--.380. .38 Special. whatever--is probably a better choice.
Whether the incident occurs "in a room" or not would most likely make any real difference.
We have been here before many times, here is a good example,
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-212241.html,
And here is what I felt was a good summation in the thread by a THR member at the time"
CorreiaJuly 27, 2006, 01:08 PM
There is so much nonsense in this thread I don't even know where to start.
Discussions like this one have been done ten thousand times on this forum and others like it.
First off, throwing out Marshall and Sanow numbers is nonsense. See about a hundred other threads for why. Personally I think M&S one shot stop numbers are utter garbage.
Yes, we all know the following:
1. It is better than a pointy stick.
2. Shot placement is everything.
3. .32, .22, or whatever other piss ant caliber you lug around has killed more people than the bubonic plauge.
4. People who carry real guns leave them at home. (since I lug a 15 shot .45 everywhere in nothing more than a t-shirt, I must have missed that memo)
5. Just having any gun, period, will solve most violent encounters.
Okay, now that we got that out of the way, let's look at this like reasonable adults.
.32 sucks. This is an extension of the rule of thumb that all handguns suck. But in a group of sucky weapons, .32 is the bastard step-child that is kept locked in the basement.
Okay, so lets disregard the vast majority of the time where just having a gun is enough to scare the badguy away. Any gun will do for that. Let's move on to actually having to shoot the badguy. At that point, you want to punch a hole in the person sufficient to make him stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot him in the first place.
.32 may or may not do that.
Yes, .32 and .22 have killed lots of people. But the goal here isn't to kill the badguy. It is to make him stop hurting you. It doesn't do any good if he dies on the operating table 45 minutes from now. You want him to leave you alone, right now. So you shoot him in something vital, as many times as it takes. This often has the side effect of killing somebody, but that is their problem, not yours.
This is where all handguns suck, but .32 sucks more. You need the bullet to go deep enough to penetrate vital organs. .32 doesn't do that very reliably. Penetration with a .32 stinks. It has a terrible track record of going through tissue, and does even worse when it hits bones. It won't reliably penetrate the top of the skull at anything past bad breath distance.
I love how shot placement is everything is these arguments. However I don't see a lot of guys running Keltec P32s in IDPA. Your shot placement out of a stubby little pocket rocket must be far better than anything I've ever seen in person.
I don't even like to sell .32s. I've had one in the counter for the last 6 months, and sold it the other day to one of my former students who wanted a pocket gun. I told him that if he needed to use it, to aim for the triangle of nose and eye sockets, and repeat as neccesary. He responded that I had taught them to go body first, then move to the head. I said that only applied to real guns.
Look, if you want to carry a .32, you will probably be fine. Most of us won't ever have to shoot anybody anyway. But keep in mind that you have picked the feeblest cartridge out of the feeblest family of weapons. Be aware of your limitations and admit that you carry it because it is tiny and convenient, and not that it has any superiority over any bigger handgun.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-212241.html,
And here is what I felt was a good summation in the thread by a THR member at the time"
CorreiaJuly 27, 2006, 01:08 PM
There is so much nonsense in this thread I don't even know where to start.
Discussions like this one have been done ten thousand times on this forum and others like it.
First off, throwing out Marshall and Sanow numbers is nonsense. See about a hundred other threads for why. Personally I think M&S one shot stop numbers are utter garbage.
Yes, we all know the following:
1. It is better than a pointy stick.
2. Shot placement is everything.
3. .32, .22, or whatever other piss ant caliber you lug around has killed more people than the bubonic plauge.
4. People who carry real guns leave them at home. (since I lug a 15 shot .45 everywhere in nothing more than a t-shirt, I must have missed that memo)
5. Just having any gun, period, will solve most violent encounters.
Okay, now that we got that out of the way, let's look at this like reasonable adults.
.32 sucks. This is an extension of the rule of thumb that all handguns suck. But in a group of sucky weapons, .32 is the bastard step-child that is kept locked in the basement.
Okay, so lets disregard the vast majority of the time where just having a gun is enough to scare the badguy away. Any gun will do for that. Let's move on to actually having to shoot the badguy. At that point, you want to punch a hole in the person sufficient to make him stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot him in the first place.
.32 may or may not do that.
Yes, .32 and .22 have killed lots of people. But the goal here isn't to kill the badguy. It is to make him stop hurting you. It doesn't do any good if he dies on the operating table 45 minutes from now. You want him to leave you alone, right now. So you shoot him in something vital, as many times as it takes. This often has the side effect of killing somebody, but that is their problem, not yours.
This is where all handguns suck, but .32 sucks more. You need the bullet to go deep enough to penetrate vital organs. .32 doesn't do that very reliably. Penetration with a .32 stinks. It has a terrible track record of going through tissue, and does even worse when it hits bones. It won't reliably penetrate the top of the skull at anything past bad breath distance.
I love how shot placement is everything is these arguments. However I don't see a lot of guys running Keltec P32s in IDPA.
Your shot placement out of a stubby little pocket rocket must be far better than anything I've ever seen in person. I don't even like to sell .32s. I've had one in the counter for the last 6 months, and sold it the other day to one of my former students who wanted a pocket gun. I told him that if he needed to use it, to aim for the triangle of nose and eye sockets, and repeat as neccesary. He responded that I had taught them to go body first, then move to the head. I said that only applied to real guns.
Look, if you want to carry a .32, you will probably be fine. Most of us won't ever have to shoot anybody anyway. But keep in mind that you have picked the feeblest cartridge out of the feeblest family of weapons. Be aware of your limitations and admit that you carry it because it is tiny and convenient, and not that it has any superiority over any bigger handgun.
Here's one I wish theyd use something other than a KT 2" BBL
http://www.oocities.org/goldenloki2/gel.html
Sometimes we forget that we have some very smart members here who have answered these questions before many times. I read that entire thread and it was pretty conclusive in it's opinion of the "32". And that was several years ago, before many of the new offerings came into play. The last post was of particular interest and IMO sums it up:
"Guns and more" August 28, 2010, 04:53 AM
Have you seen the sub compact 9mms on the market? maybe the kahr?
Sure, I have one. It's orders of magnitude larger than the Seecamp.
My theory is that it would be so easy to carry, there would be no excuse to NOT carry it.
I carry a PM9, it's in my pocket right now with Liberty Civil Defense ammo in it, I can't even feel it's there, with 7 rounds ready to go, it's under 19 ozs.
Why would you not carry something better than a sub par, "being discrete", gun that at best is marginal, and not much better than a 25caliber.
When it comes to your life, you should not be on the cusp of what "may" work. But rather try to get the best possible weapon that you can afford. After all we are talking about your life here, not a test or shooting match with paper targets, don't we all feel that we are worth the extra few bucks to buy the best possible weapon with the highest "or at least among the highest" track record, of mortally wounding an armed assailant, rather than a "maybe weapon". You want the best for yourself and those who you care about, this is not an experiment to see if you can survive a gunfight with the worse choice you had the option of making. But rather the opportunity to survive a violent attack and live through it.
"Guns and more" August 28, 2010, 04:53 AM
Have you seen the sub compact 9mms on the market? maybe the kahr?
Sure, I have one. It's orders of magnitude larger than the Seecamp.
My theory is that it would be so easy to carry, there would be no excuse to NOT carry it.
I carry a PM9, it's in my pocket right now with Liberty Civil Defense ammo in it, I can't even feel it's there, with 7 rounds ready to go, it's under 19 ozs.
Why would you not carry something better than a sub par, "being discrete", gun that at best is marginal, and not much better than a 25caliber.
When it comes to your life, you should not be on the cusp of what "may" work. But rather try to get the best possible weapon that you can afford. After all we are talking about your life here, not a test or shooting match with paper targets, don't we all feel that we are worth the extra few bucks to buy the best possible weapon with the highest "or at least among the highest" track record, of mortally wounding an armed assailant, rather than a "maybe weapon". You want the best for yourself and those who you care about, this is not an experiment to see if you can survive a gunfight with the worse choice you had the option of making. But rather the opportunity to survive a violent attack and live through it.
Walt Sherrill
Member
gym said:
While I agree with the rest of your post...
It is believed that about 75 MILLION people died from the Black Death (another of its names) around the world in the 14th Century, including maybe 8 million a year n Europe from 1347-1352, and its still manages to kill people today. Like the .32 acp round, it's still around.
Walt Sherrill
Member
kleanbore said:
For a lot of folks your point -- with which I agree -- is moot.
Most of us will continue to do what makes us most comfortable -- physically and intellectually -- and since the vast majority of us are unlikely to ever actually FIRE a handgun in a self-defense situation, most of the folks participating here will never have an opportunity to learn if they're wrong or right. It remains an intellectual exercise.
jimbo555
Member
No reason to be lazy home in your room. This thread is about room defense. Largest, most powerful you can handle,highest capacity.
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