Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

TestPilot said:

There is no suffucient data to make such assumptions.

There are plenty of cop shootings where criminals soaked up 9mm and above on torso, and still attacked the officer.

What makes you think a regular people with less than 9mm would fare better?

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And yet many in this very thread argue that 9mm and above is the suitability limit for defensive ammunition. So despite the ineffectiveness of the 9mm in the real world, most here will champion it because it goes a certain depth in a block of jello. Let's not forget that the FBI standards are the result of the failure of the 9mm in the Miami shootout. If you believe that carrying a .380 is marginal, and are confidently carrying a 9mm, then you are deluding yourself.

Of course, if most people were honest, they choose the 9mm for the same reasons some choose the smaller .380. They want an easy to conceal gun with decent capacity, but the 9mm is cheaper to shoot than the others, so it becomes their choice. If .380 ammo was cheaper than 9mm, the argument would be whether or not the .32 was marginal.

I don't think you guys understand the concept of defensive weapons.

You don't pick a weapon by finding the most tiny size and puny cartridge that fits your comfortable life style and still fits some theoretical penetration threshold.

You pick the most powerful handgun you can control and still conceal reasonably well. Just cause it fits in your jeans and weighs far less than your gut does not get you off the hook that you are carrying a marginal round in a hard to shoot platform.

You are picking something cause it's convenient, not cause it's effective.

So set away from these watch fob guns and anemic rounds.

Deaf

You don't pick a weapon by finding the most tiny size and puny cartridge that fits your comfortable life style and still fits some theoretical penetration threshold.

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That's exactly what I did.

I wanted something that fit in my front pocket and was capable of 12+ inches of penetration through 4 layers of heavy denim.

All of the testing that I could find at the time had .380 hollow point stopping at 10" penetration and the FMJ, even truncated flat nosed penetrating 17-18 inches and even zipping out the back of 19" blocks.

There didn't seem to be a way to get the round to penetrate between 12 to 15 inches.

.40 S&W and .45 ACP couldn't be made small enough or light enough to fit into a pocket.

The Rohrbaugh R9 could fire the 9mm cartridge out of a ~3" barrel and deliver 14 - 15" of penetration through 4-layer denim and still expand to around .60+ caliber.

So I bought one

All of the velocities for the .380 listed here are 1000 fps or under. Please redo the math with a 90 grain XTP doing 1200 fps.

Also, you cannot find a major brand OTC .380 that will break 980 fps. It is unheard of. You have to seek out other sources. I have, and I am very comfortable with my .380. I don't find myself in situations where I need to have a service pistol on me. I don't go to neighborhoods where dopers roll. I don't go downtown to large cities very often, Don't go to malls, etc.
When I travel distance on America's veins (Interstates/Highways) I do carry my 1911, XD9, and the .380 that stays on my person. Where car trouble or Motorcycle failure come to me, then I'd put a service pistol in my wife's hands, and I'd have another plus I'd still have the .380 ACP on my person.

If you want to have fighting/combat power with you, you should stay at home where your long guns are stored IMO.

The .380 is not marginal. I think one should think like this; if you have a gun on you when you need one, you are already a step ahead of a lot of people. Not having a gun on you makes defense marginal. Also, depending on the situation sometimes pepper spray or electricity should be a first line of defense, and with that applied you could get to safety.

The gun you'll wear everyday is the right gun.

Eb1 said:

All of the velocities for the .380 listed here are 1000 fps or under. Please redo the math with a 90 grain XTP doing 1200 fps.

Also, you cannot find a major brand OTC .380 that will break 980 fps. It is unheard of. You have to seek out other sources. I have, and I am very comfortable with my .380. I don't find myself in situations where I need to have a service pistol on me. I don't go to neighborhoods where dopers roll. I don't go downtown to large cities very often, Don't go to malls, etc.
When I travel distance on America's veins (Interstates/Highways) I do carry my 1911, XD9, and the .380 that stays on my person. Where car trouble or Motorcycle failure come to me, then I'd put a service pistol in my wife's hands, and I'd have another plus I'd still have the .380 ACP on my person.

If you want to have fighting/combat power with you, you should stay at home where your long guns are stored IMO.

The .380 is not marginal. I think one should think like this; if you have a gun on you when you need one, you are already a step ahead of a lot of people. Not having a gun on you makes defense marginal. Also, depending on the situation sometimes pepper spray or electricity should be a first line of defense, and with that applied you could get to safety.

The gun you'll wear everyday is the right gun.

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In regards to the parts in bold, I don't understand this line of reasoning. Are you saying that in the places you normally go: if a person puts you in fear of imminent bodily harm such that you would shoot them to death with your .380...they are still less of a threat than the deadly force threats found in the locations where you would want a service pistol?

I figure if another human is trying to kill me the risk is the same no matter where they/we are geographically located. Somebody trying to kill you is somebody trying to kill you...

Classic mistake, confusing the odds of a catastrophic event occurring with the severity of the event should it occur.

I am saying that I don't put myself in harms way. At least not willingly, and our community isn't one that you'd find a gang of criminals approaching you.

In reply to the fire "power" comment. Carry pistols are not the end all. None of them have respectable fire "power". You have to move up into the hunting calibers.
Sure have a 10mm, but even then factory ammo isn't up to par with what the caliber is capable of. I am speaking of .22 LR to .45 APC. They are all weapons that are a last resort for soldiers, or a first resort for citizens (due to laws). If you want to have the biggest bang for the buck, you need a rifle or shotgun, but where can you have that out legally in the US? Not many places.
So if you want to feel uber secure. You should stay at home with your long guns. Otherwise the best gun is the gun you will carry everyday, and are comfortable with.

Just curious about how those who feel the 380 isn't marginal would rate the 22LR in comparison to the 380? Is the 22 marginal?

No, the .22 LR or 22WMR isn't marginal IMO.
Not for defensive use. Take the PMR-30 for instance. 30 rounds of .22WMR. Pretty impressive. Take a Ruger SR22. that is a nice .22 LR pistol, and with .40 grain HV Solids. You have a very quick shot follow up, and a .22 LR solid has the ability to penetrate easily.

OK, it doesn't make sense but it explains enough to me to remove myself from this discussion.

The .380 is not marginal. I think one should think like this; if you have a gun on you when you need one, you are already a step ahead of a lot of people. Not having a gun on you makes defense marginal. Also, depending on the situation sometimes pepper spray or electricity should be a first line of defense, and with that applied you could get to safety.

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.380 ACP is indeed a marginal cartridge. It cannot propel an expanding bullet with enough mass that RELIABLY achieves adequate penetration.

Yes, it can.

It can if the sun, moon and stars are in proper alignment...the rest of the time it can't. That's the definition of marginal!

This has been interesting. I like many .380 pistols. I also believe there are many valid reasons a lot of people carry .380 pistols for self-defense. That said, marginal is defined as

3. at the outer or lower limits; minimal for requirements; almost insufficient: (dictionary.com)

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According to modern generally accepted standards of performance, .380 is clearly marginal. That does not make someone stupid or incompetent for slipping a .380 in their pocket. Not a big deal. Just a conscious choice with all the pros and cons of that choice.

Any .380 solid FN i.e. Winchester White Box will travel easily 19" through four layers of denim and jello.
A 90 grain XTP at 1200 fps will make the 12" mark through 4 layers of denim and jello.

Where is the margin going to fall if it meets the "FBI" standard. More people are killed with hammers. Are hammers marginal? I don't understand why anyone would call a gun marginal. Shot placement is the key. Most air guns today will kill coyote, foxes, and deer. I guess people just have to have something to debate.

Eb1, I certainly agree with the point you are making. What I was saying is that the .380 is marginal when measured against a standard that is currently in vogue and generally accepted as a benchmark. Inevitably, any standard is somewhat arbitrary. Being marginal against the FBI standard doesn't mean it is valueless.

Deaf Smith said:

I don't think you guys understand the concept of defensive weapons.

You don't pick a weapon by finding the most tiny size and puny cartridge that fits your comfortable life style and still fits some theoretical penetration threshold.

You pick the most powerful handgun you can control and still conceal reasonably well. Just cause it fits in your jeans and weighs far less than your gut does not get you off the hook that you are carrying a marginal round in a hard to shoot platform.

You are picking something cause it's convenient, not cause it's effective.

So set away from these watch fob guns and anemic rounds.

Deaf

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While I agree that you should carry the largest caliber possible, that doesn't mean everyone can carry a .45. There are legitimate times and scenarios where a .380 may very well be the largest caliber and size that can be carried.

The notion of compact 9mm as being small enough to replace the .380 ignores some realities. The small 9mm are larger, heavier and significantly harder to control than their .380 counterparts. The same guns may fit into similar carry scenarios but print more and increase the odds of missing your target and slowing down follow up shots. Furthermore, the much vaunted magical 12" of penetration is almost never measured from the compact 9mm's, but from service pistols. I bet the margins are nowhere near as high as people think between compact 9mm and the small .380's.

It is a mistake to assume that expansion is going to happen correctly with any caliber, you must assume that you are only going to get a caliber sized hole. Expansion is nice, but the fbi says placement and penetration is what is important, so if that is so important, carry fmj in your .380 and you will clearly be fine.

M&PVolk said:

... There are legitimate times and scenarios where a .380 may very well be the largest caliber and size that can be carried.... so if that is so important, carry fmj in your .380 and you will clearly be fine.

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Especially if you choose some of the most efficient ammo > http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/380-auto-90gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition

corrected my post, Zimmerman did shoot Treyvon with a 9mm....Gavrilo Princip did use a .380 to assassinate the Archduke and his wife.

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/was-t...lle-princip-assassinated-arc...-18498228.html

Oh how fascinating. This goes on and on and on.

M&PVolk said:

While I agree that you should carry the largest caliber possible, that doesn't mean everyone can carry a .45.

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Didn't say .45, but I will say unless you are in shorts and t-shirt, or physically handicapped, you can pack more than a watchfob sized .380.

I use the Glock 26 so much cause a) I sit down alot thus longer barreled guns don't work so well, b) 9mm +p+ 127 gr Winchester JHPs are about the most I can control ONE HANDED, and c) I shoot Glocks very well.

I'd use the .357 Sig or .40 S&W or .45 acp if I could control it one handed. Why one handed? Cause sometimes that is all you have.

Deaf

Especially if you choose some of the most efficient ammo > http://www.lehighdefense.com/collect...tor-ammunition

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Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator simply produces a slightly larger diameter temporary cavity than non-expanding bullets. The cracks observed along the wound track do indeed represent "permanent disruption" of ordnance gelatin. Unfortunately many people misinterpret disruption caused by the temporary cavity in ordnance gelatin as the "permanent cavity". In the tests I've seen .380 Xtreme Penetrator produces a temporary cavity about 1" in diameter.

The Xtreme Penetrator bullet design is nothing new. About 15 years ago I tested a similar bullet designed by the late Charles Kelsey - http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article422.htm

More info about that bullet can also be found here - http://www.thegunzone.com/people/charlie_kelsey2.html

Deaf Smith said:

Didn't say .45, but I will say unless you are in shorts and t-shirt, or physically handicapped, you can pack more than a watchfob sized .380.

I use the Glock 26 so much cause a) I sit down alot thus longer barreled guns don't work so well, b) 9mm +p+ 127 gr Winchester JHPs are about the most I can control ONE HANDED, and c) I shoot Glocks very well.

I'd use the .357 Sig or .40 S&W or .45 acp if I could control it one handed. Why one handed? Cause sometimes that is all you have.

Deaf

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Blanket generalizations are rarely true and this one is particularly poor. You make a huge assumption that everyone can control their own wardrobe and can then conceal anything. In reality, many people have their wardrobe dictated to them by work and weather, making anything larger than a keltec or lcp too large to conceal.

Interesting that you have settled on a non-standard load for carry (+p+) and are willing to compromise your own philosophy of what a defensive handgun needs to be. You have chosen a caliber the FBI gave up on due to performance issues and feel better about it because it reaches a certain depth when shot into jello.

You say you can't control a bigger caliber, but if I use your logic, I would say you need to stop trying tiny .45's because anybody can shoot a 1911 and anyone who isn't disabled should have no problem concealing one if they dress accordingly. Do you see how your argument fails?

Carrying a handgun is ALWAYS a compromise. There are zero guarantees that your little 9mm will do any better than a .380. In fact, real world incidents actually tell us you really should carry a .357 w/a 4" barrel if you need best performance. You should look into a good revolver...

Just shot an ISI match for revolvers and bugs. I took my Sig p238 with some inexpensive Blazer .380 ammo.

Shot very well, dropped all the steel on the first shot! I shot very accurately!

NOW, add those little Lehigh Defense solid copper penetrating monsters, and I feel very confident having this as a back up weapon. They will chew up just about anything infront of em.

be safe.

Some people just cant accept any derogatory comments about their choices.
the definition of marginal in play here according to Merriam Webster is
"a : close to the lower limit of qualification, acceptability, or function : barely exceeding the minimum requirements "
so ultimately since the 380 barely meets the FBI's (and generally accepted) minimum 12" of penetration with reliable expansion it is marginal.

Some people just cant accept any derogatory comments about their choices.

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We reap what we sow and somebody's cartridge didn't get a trophy, such is the world we live in today.