why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[MrChicken]

If you wonder if a .380 is enough, perhaps this question is one you should ask yourself.

If you knew you were going to be in a gunfight, and you are limited to choosing a pistol chambered in .380 or 9mm or .40 or .45, what would choose? After you choose, the guys you will be fighting get to pick pistols from the same calibers.

Now what if the BG's can choose shotguns, do you still want to carry that .380?

Since I can't CCW a shotgun, I have to be confident that my pistol will get the job done. The thought of facing a couple of well armed BG's with .380 doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[jlh26oo]

80's TV trivia

Hey some of those .380 survival stories were SHOTS IN THE HEAD, "execution style", at PB. Head shot w/a .45 is definitely gonna hurt you in the short run.

'Drew- you should have hit him with the rock climber who sawed his own arm off while pinned under a boulder. REALITY, hollywood style.

I still am confident that I have as good a chance to defend myself with my 380, 9mm, or 45. All of which I feel EQUALLY safe with.

Yeah, I'm with you. In fact, I feel as safe with a .22short as I do a .357mag. Allow me to explain.

A .22short isnt far off from a .22lr, a .22lr just a little slower than a .22mag, which is not a huge jump to a .380. A .380 is essentially a .38spl, and the .38spl+p+ is as good as a 9mm. A 9mm is not far off from a .40sw, and the 10mm is basically a hot .40sw. The 10mm of course is the ballistic twin of the .357mag. Therefore .22short isn't much of a jump to .357mag.


BTW do I have to be the one to point out this guy's SN and PC? Besides, the real McG wouldn't even TOUCH a 380. But it's not because it's not powerful enough...

 

[magyvor]

BTW do I have to be the one to point out this guy's SN and PC? Besides, the real McG wouldn't even TOUCH a 380. But it's not because it's not powerful enough

Is this really going to turn into a name calling thing?

 

[jlh26oo]

Is this really going to turn into a name calling thing?

LOL, what name did I call you?

 

[Mad Chemist]

No, please explain how I am wrong in my conclusion that his logic is flawed.

You don't understand the difference? :banghead:
Google logic and start reading. Take notes.

 

[FEATHERWEIGHT]

All of this mine bigger than yours kills me on these boards.
I look at man as a fairly week animal for the most part compared to other mammals.

While pheasant hunting I have seen a white tail with its front leg dangling with a second shot to abdomen with a 12ga. slug. Does that imply that 12ga slug is not a stopper. I think not. What this means is that shot placement and terminal blood loss is key to stopping.

Another example I saw Hunting show with a women on ESPN shoot a big buffalo with .375++ type rifle twice at less than 25 yards. That buffalo ran 50 something yards before dropping why is a big high powered rife not enough?
The simple reason is that terminal blood loss ( buffalo having more blood volume than man) had to be achieved before the brain was deprived of oxygen for the animal to lose consicousness and die.

Same is true for man except panic, pain, and fear are all a factors. Some people have low pain threshold and will say they are incapicitated with a sevre headache and some people have terminal bone cancer (very pain full death) and never complain or take a single pain pill. Same is true for bad guys some respond with rage to pain (FIGHT) and some with panic (flight).

Another major thought is that the need for larger more firearms has evovled from the use of illegal drugs and body armor. Lets face it if a bad guy is juiced up on coke you need a .357 , .40, and .45 (FBI incident in Miami).If a bad guys is wearing body armor he is prepared mentally for a fight and most handguns are completely in effective LAPD and bank robbery)

Now lets face it most bad guys are using a controlled substance ( small exception are the sexual predators ), and want an easy target to get what they need so they can buy more drugs these people are usually weak cowards when confronted; however, if they are in advanced stages of withdrawl they can become desperate and fearless. This why we should always prepare for the worst.

I personnaly carry a Smith J frame, I have a p7, P225, p226, and 1911. Why do carry a j frame because it is the easiest and best of both world .38+p hollow points, more reliable than mini auto (.25,.32 ACP, and .380). I can easily conceal in my pocket. It is all a comprise in our society due to the fact that we must conceal in order to not be considered a wacko. Now fantasize for a minute wouldn't it be great to live in the old west where you have a peace maker on your hip and grab your rifle off your horse as you walked into the saloon and nobody think anything about it .

Practice, Practice

 

[Robert J McElwain]

Borachon,

Excellent articles.


Jacobus Rex,

Well said.



Bob

 

[Borachon]

I have to be confident that my pistol will get the job done. The thought of facing a couple of well armed BG's with .380 doesn't inspire confidence.

And I think that's the different mindset that you see often between shooters.

My take on it is a little different.
I don't have to be confident that my PISTOL will get the job done. I have to be confident that *I* can get the job done. The pistol is just the tool I use.

I've practiced (enough?...who knows? is there ever enough practice?). I'm familiar with my weapon. I'm fairly quick. I can reload it reseasonably fast. I can hit a torso sized target with three shots in 3 seconds at 20 yards. My gun is accurate. It's so far been dependable...no jams, no failure to fires.

So...would I feel un-confident (is that a word?) in facing a couple of well armed BG's with my pistol (it's a 9x18 Makarov round...near enough to a .380) Sure I would...but even someone armed with a Howitzer is going to be scared when the time comes. But do I think I can match skills with someone who is packing a 9mm, a .45, or .44 magnum? Sure. If the guy invested all his energy into being PROUD of his weapon, and doesn't practice with it, then I've got him cold. He's got to HIT YOU with his shots. Recoil from a large caliber handgun might mean the difference between being able to accurately shoot once and being able to shoot three times. My three bullets in his chest will probably match the one bullet the BG fired at me. IF I even NEED three. Plenty of .380 killed or incapacitated on the first shot stories out there. Also lots of times when they didn't. But I posted some .45 shot stories too. A .45 doesn't always mean the guy falls over dead instantly. The policeman shot 4 times in the chest with a .45, returns fire after being shot, and dies a month later from infection...that link is in an earlier post of mine.

My goal now is accurate shooting under pressure...and a gun that is reliable in function. The caliber thing is becoming less and less of an issue with me.

 

[JMusic]

Mr. Chicken if I knew I was going to be in a gun fight I would not select any of the above. I would take a long gun, but I don't think that was the point you were trying to make. Fact is I have seen people shot in critical area's with large caliber handguns and though they died eventially they were able to create some mischief prior to succumbing. I don't believe caliber or accuracy is necessarily the best thing here. I think it is TOTAL damaged area, and if someone is adrenalined up it has to be substantial. I may start another link to see what other peoples experiences are. I'm not sure who started this link but if he is confident then thats half the battle. (At least he is comfortable and doesn't live in fear.) Go forth young man and fear no more!
Jim

 

[magyvor]

Borachon is Da Man

You know, after I stirred up a bunch crap, intentionally, but not mean spritedly, You said exactly what I meant. You obviously are much better at expressing intelligent thoughts and Ideas.

I think a big difference between what I believe about calibers, and what some Die Hard Big Bore Enthusiasts believe is this........

Some of you say "I am right, I cant understand your thinking, you are wrong"

And what I say is "You may be right, but I am confident in my beliefs"

This has been a great thread tho

 

[Borachon]

MORE TRASHING THE LETHALITY MYTH OF THE .45 LINKS

At a minimum, I try to post stories were the person lived after a chest shot or something similar. I'm trying to exclude leg or arm shots. Ideally, I try to find story about the person moving around after being shot with a .45

Touch MY Mail?
http://www.rhinelanderdailynews.com/articles/2004/12/14/news/local_news/news.prt

Washington DC Road Rules
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5/10/13/AR2005101302026.html?nav=rss_metro/va
Actually...this guy died later. Oops....I'll leave it anyway since it was my bad.

Hawaiian Frenzy!
http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/08/news/story6.html Note how he walked next door to a neighbors house.

Blue Grass State Mayhem!
http://www.kypost.com/news/1998/pawn041598.html

".40 Calibers Fail to Penetrate Winter Jackets"...Mayhem!
http://www.lineofduty.com/blotterstory.asp?StoryID=73157

Shot in Face w/.45
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/11/22/build/
wyoming/90-wyoming-digest.inc

.45 Tap Behind the Ear. Guy in intensive care...but alive.
http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/02/27/news/lake_county/
657b311385ef486c86256e47000b8b2b.prt

Shot in the Groin...and you're to blame...darlin' you give love...a bad name.
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/05060/464503.stm

Mortally Wounded Cop Runs After Suspect
http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=12750

9mm versus .45 (He wasn't shot with the .45 but...eh)
http://www.police.nashville.org/news/media/2005/02/04a.htm

Okay...that's enough. I'll do a wounded by .380 set of links sometime as a balance.

 

[Borachon]

You know, after I stirred up a bunch crap, intentionally, but not mean spritedly

Wait a minute. YOU were the one who stirred this up?

WHY YOU LITTLE---

 

[Borachon]

knew I was going to be in a gun fight I would not select any of the above. I would take a long gun,

That would be my preference. Of course, if I KNEW I was going into a gunfight, I could always apply the ancient wisdom of David Carradine's TV Show "Kung Fu"

"'What is the best way to deal with force?' -disciple Caine to one of his teachers.
'As we prize peace and quiet above victory, there is a simple and preferred method.... Run away.'"


If I was unable to run away, I'd at least want a shotgun. Pistols are for when you can't get to other guns.

 

[MrChicken]

Mr. Chicken if I knew I was going to be in a gun fight I would not select any of the above. Jim

I excluded the choice of a long gun, because for the most part, you can't realistically CCW one. What you can CCW realistically is a pistol. When you leave the house with your pistol, you've made a choice of what to take with you.
I was trying to point out that what you can not choose is who your potential opponents will be, how many, what they choose for weapons. That being the case, do you really prefer a smaller pistol that fires a lesser round and holds less ammo? If you understand all of that, and you still carry a .380, that's fine by me.

 

[longeyes]

I excluded the choice of a long gun, because for the most part, you can't realistically CCW one.

Can anyone say "lupara?"

Oh, you mean legally...

 

[Borachon]

do you really prefer a smaller pistol that fires a lesser round and holds less ammo? If you understand all of that, and you still carry a .380, that's fine by me.

Yes. I prefer a smaller pistol that can be easily concealed. A lot of the time people THINK their weapon is concealed..when it's obvious actually that they are carrying...especially when that coat or shirttail rides up. I've seen it around here a lot...especially when someone gets up at a restaurant. It's really hard to bend and move at the same time and not have a belt piece show up.

With a smallish weapon, you avoid having to explain to people why you are carrying a gun...or to the police when some average joe reports you carrying a gun around...if no one knows you've got one. You already don't have a rifle to fight with...now you wanna lose the element of surprise too?

In a robbery, a crook who had cased the room might have tagged me as carrying this big lumpish thing under my armpit...or having a giant knob hanging over the back of my belt. That kind of attention, I don't want. First thing I knew about a robbery might be when I had his Davis .25 pressed in my ear saying, "Hand over the 6in .357, fat boy". "Fat boy?! How 'bout I ram this .357 up----" *BAMM* "Owwww....my eardrum!...you shot out my eardrum!" And etc etc. A handgun actually makes a nice haul from a robbery. I have no doubt a crook would take yours if he knows you've got one.

Of course..you could probably soak up that hit from a .25, whip out your .40 Glock and blast him to Kingdom Come...right?

To me, concealed means "So that no one around can even guess you're carrying". So yeah...I'm not planning on packing around a Colt 1911. If you are a tall enough guy and can get away with this...cool. But if you are that tall, then a 1911 IS a small pistol for you.

 

[magyvor]

It wasnt me Dude.....

 

[JMusic]

I should let this drop butttt...... I realize that we cannot carry long guns with 100% concelability. I was just saying that it is the preferred weapon of choice. Those who took an oath did not have the option of running so you pad your hand, invite your friends with guns to the gunfight and have them invite their friends. I carried two weapons a BHP in 9mm ( the only caliber made at the time) and a model 27 Smith with 5 inch barrel. My long gun was a Thompson in 45. So sir I agree you want all you can get when going to a gunfight. Concelability though is a personal thing. I still believe you have to make it conveinant to carry a peice or sometimes it Will stay home.
regards

 

[Zonamo]

I realize that we cannot carry long guns with 100% concelability.

Sure you can.

View attachment 259030View attachment 259031

Some are just willing to compromise by carrying a weak and puny handgun for the sake of convenience.

 

[ghost squire]

You don't understand the difference?
Google logic and start reading. Take notes.

Really, I'm not sure but I think Double Naught Spy agrees with me, why don't you point out why his logic is false.

 

[torpid]

I cannot recall a single video game I've played where I could use a .380, and I've played plenty with 9mm and .45s.

Therefore, .380 is obviously not enough for SD.

(science)

.

 

[JMusic]

Zonama, yes I know you would be surprised what can be carried. The shotgun is not a legal weapon and the MP5, well unless you want to pay the tax they are not legal. Good advise though I am going to reappraise the p32 I sometimes carry and get me one of those shoulder holsters. Do you know if you can get them in black sharkskin?
regards

 

[AndrewM]

The shotgun is legal, $5 tax stamp (it's likely classified as an AOW) and all the other stuff you need to do for an NFA firearm and it's yours. You can pick up a semi-auto version of the MP5 and avoid all of the NFA stuff as well.

 

[Zonamo]

Do you know if you can get them in black sharkskin?

I should have given credit where due for those rigs. The first one is from

Andrews Custom Leather


and the Second is the "Rapid Deployment System" from

Wild Bill's Concealment Holsters

Andrews doesn't say if they work in exotic leathers, but according to Wild Bill's site, choices include "dual tone finish, Sharkskin, Stingray, Alligator trim or full construction."

 

[.45&TKD]

IF, in a worst case scenario, a BG (lets say 6'5", 320lbs) is an imminent threat to my life

In my worst case scenario, this guy and his friends are shooting at me with .45's or long guns.