Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

[Deaf Smith]

My interpretation of "Self Defense" is stopping an individual from attacking a person with would not require being able to penetrate barriers.

What you think self defense requires and what actually happens on the street are two distinctly different things.

Each situation is different. Some may require a frontal shot, others a angled shot, still others having to penetrate heavy clothing or glass windows or even car doors.

And that is why one needs a general purpose handgun and round.

Deaf

 

[kokapelli]

What you think self defense requires and what actually happens on the street are two distinctly different things.

Each situation is different. Some may require a frontal shot, others a angled shot, still others having to penetrate heavy clothing or glass windows or even car doors.

And that is why one needs a general purpose handgun and round.

Deaf

How would a self defense siduation require shooting through windows and car doors?

 

[CoalTrain49]

The very best .380 HPs barely make (or are just shy of) the 12" minimum. Unless we do a scientific study of shooting a statistically large enough sample size of death row inmates with different calibers and study the results, they will never be qualified in a concrete manner.

So where is this study that you suggest for the other cartridges like 9 mm and 45 ACP. By your reasoning, if the study needs to be made for 380 to qualify, then the study must be valid for any cartridges also. Also, I'm pretty sure your study would be illegal.

 

[TimSr]

There is no suffucient data to make such assumptions.

There are plenty of cop shootings where criminals soaked up 9mm and above on torso, and still attacked the officer.

What makes you think a regular people with less than 9mm would fare better?

Criminals typically do not ATTACK cops. Most violent altercations are of criminals RESISTING cops. Criminals fight to escape arrest.


Criminals typically ATTACK people they believe will not resist.



Criminals fight to escape arrest. It's going to be one or the other - fight or be arrested. When a criminal has a confrontation with a cop he has only 3 choices.

1. Submit and surrender.
2. Attack the officer, in hopes of incapacitating him and fleeing before backup arrives.
3. Flee, knowing the officer is pursuing him, and hoping you he can outrun, or lose the pursuing officer.



When a criminal has a confrontation with an armed citizen, he has two choices.

1. Attack the victim in hopes of incapacitating him before getting shot to death, and hope whatever it is you wanted from him is worth it.

2. Flee, or walk away, knowing you'll probably never be prosecuted, and look for an easier victim.

 

[WestKentucky]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html

It's more than marginal, but not ideal. Would still be on my.list as a meat getter in a ultralight survival gun.

 

[CoalTrain49]

When a criminal has a confrontation with an armed citizen, he has two choices.

1. Attack the victim in hopes of incapacitating him before getting shot to death, and hope whatever it is you wanted from him is worth it.

2. Flee, or walk away, knowing you'll probably never be prosecuted, and look for an easier victim.

If I were a criminal I would take door #2.

Getting shot seems like a lot of work for a few credit cards and some change.

 

[Deaf Smith]

How would a self defense siduation require shooting through windows and car doors?

Your in the car and they are outside the car about to shoot.. or you are outside the car and they are inside the car and about to shoot... or your BABY is in the car with the carjacker and you have to stop him before he drives off.

Lots of reasons you may have to do that.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

Criminals typically do not ATTACK cops. Most violent altercations are of criminals RESISTING cops. Criminals fight to escape arrest.


Criminals typically ATTACK people they believe will not resist.



Criminals fight to escape arrest. It's going to be one or the other - fight or be arrested. When a criminal has a confrontation with a cop he has only 3 choices.

1. Submit and surrender.
2. Attack the officer, in hopes of incapacitating him and fleeing before backup arrives.
3. Flee, knowing the officer is pursuing him, and hoping you he can outrun, or lose the pursuing officer.



When a criminal has a confrontation with an armed citizen, he has two choices.

1. Attack the victim in hopes of incapacitating him before getting shot to death, and hope whatever it is you wanted from him is worth it.

2. Flee, or walk away, knowing you'll probably never be prosecuted, and look for an easier victim.

And this has to do with the .380 just how?

It's still a life-and-death struggle and you must stop the attacker, preferably before they kill you.

Deaf

 

[kokapelli]

Your in the car and they are outside the car about to shoot.. or you are outside the car and they are inside the car and about to shoot... or your BABY is in the car with the carjacker and you have to stop him before he drives off.

Lots of reasons you may have to do that.

Deaf

Your going to shoot into the car that your baby is in?

They're in the car and going to shoot me means they have the window open, so I don't have to shoot through glass.

 

[mooosie]

I would rather carry my glock 21 and a couple of mags, however I live in Florida in shorts and a golf shirt. It is pretty hard to hide that glock! I carry a keltec P3AT as has already been established not the best carry gun, but better in my pocket than the glock at home on the closet shelf! Also no one has volunteered to get shot by a 380 that I know of, because no one wants to leak!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Your going to shoot into the car that your baby is in?

They're in the car and going to shoot me means they have the window open, so I don't have to shoot through glass.

If the baby is in the back seat and I have no way to stop the carjacker from kidnapping the baby, and the angle is right, yep sure would.

You may have to shoot into the car if they are trying to run you over.. BUT you may also have to shoot through the door of the car if they are shooting at you with the window rolled down.

You will find car window glass, especially the front glass, quite shootable from the inside (but you will find the bullet arcs a bit upward.) That is if you have to shoot from the inside toward them.

ALSO... if they are behind the car door while it is open (i.e. using it for cover) then again you have to shoot through the door or the window.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

So where is this study that you suggest for the other cartridges like 9 mm and 45 ACP. By your reasoning, if the study needs to be made for 380 to qualify, then the study must be valid for any cartridges also. Also, I'm pretty sure your study would be illegal.

Same place-I mentioned all calibers in my hypothetical study suggestion, not just .380. Of course it is illegal, unethical, and will never happen outside of a draconian regime like Nazi Germany, hence, we will never have scientifically valid data to precisely parse out the differences in "stopping power" of various handgun rounds.

All we have is ballistics gel, anecdotal shooting data, biology/anatomy and common sense.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I would rather carry my glock 21 and a couple of mags, however I live in Florida in shorts and a golf shirt. It is pretty hard to hide that glock! I carry a keltec P3AT as has already been established not the best carry gun, but better in my pocket than the glock at home on the closet shelf! Also no one has volunteered to get shot by a 380 that I know of, because no one wants to leak!

'no one volunteer to get shot with...'

Man what a snore. No one wants to be shot with a 2.7 mm Kolibri either (3 grain bullet at 680 fps or so) so it's meaningless.

It's not wither the gun/round is capable of death, it is if it's capable of RELIABLY stopping someone.

What the vast amount of research has found is a) bigger diameter bullets tend to stop better, b) faster bullets tend to stop better, c) well constructed bullets like SWC or JHP tends to stop better, and d) correct shot placement tends to stop better.

And yes, if you combine the traits it gives you an edge. Not a guarantee but an edge.

Deaf

 

[Gary A]

2. Flee, or walk away, knowing you'll probably never be prosecuted, and look for an easier victim.

If I were a criminal I would take door #2.

Getting shot seems like a lot of work for a few credit cards and some change.

Once again, door #2, to the best of my knowledge, is statistically the nearly universal choice of all predators be they winged, finned, four-legged, or two. Predators thin the herd by removing the oldest, slowest, less able to survive, not by attacking the strongest, fastest, and most capable of inflicting damage. Resistance changes the equation considerably. Of course, exceptions prove the rule.

 

[MCgunner]

IMO the statistics we always read about 380 effectiveness are missing a very important equation.

Most people that shoot 9, 40 and 45 practice a lot more than the average 380 shooter does which means on average the 9, 40 and 45 shooters are probably going to have better shot placement and that equation is never considered in caliber effectiveness.

Another fact to consider is that most 9, 40 45 shooters are using longer barreled pistols than the average 380 shooter.

IMO if a 380 round follows the same path as a 9mm round and the 380 round is one that will reach vitals it will probably be at least 95% as effective as a 9mm round.

Oh, yes, well, .355" .380 is the same as the .355" 9 so it's just as effective, right? Let's not talk about bullet weight or energy, not applicable, right? Since the .357 magnum is .002" bigger, it's only marginally better than the .380, right? Guess I should start carrying my .380 in bear country seeing as it's so effective.

 

[MCgunner]

Wow, my 7mm Remington Magnum is only.284" in diameter. I should rebarrel it for .380!

 

[X-Rap]

Heck yea it's marginal.

 

[Cleveland48]

While probably not ideal, I wouldn't want to get shot by one Lol. Guy from my hometown was shot through the chest with a 44 magnum in his work parking lot, ran in the building and called 911. Saw him two weeks ago, still going strong. He was shot in the 80's so bullet make might be a small deciding factor. All I know is even a 22 is better than fingernails and teeth.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

How would a self defense siduation require shooting through windows and car doors?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I would point out that criminals are not all completely devoid of common sense. I've seen several surveillance camera videos that show criminals taking cover once the lead starts flying. Sometimes (often actually) they return fire from behind cover. One video that made the rounds last month shows some scumbags breaking through one glass door to rob an occupied C-store at closing time. When the shots started ringing out one of them backpedaled through the hole and returned fire from behind the intact glass door. Another incident was a police shooting, not an armed citizen, but a perp they were there to evict darted inside his apt and grabbed a gun and began shooting using the door way as cover.

I think it's safe to say most thugs don't want to die any more than we do.
It might not be the bulk of shootings but they do find cover from time to time.

Lastly the "barrier" might be the BGs arm or even his firearm. I expect a bonded bullet is less likely to shatter on one of the long bones of the arm or going through the magazine of his outstretched Glock.

 

[jrdolall]

Why are we still arguing potato and potatoe? The question is whether or not the 380 round is marginal. I don't recall reading that it was better than the larger calibers. Assuming a perfectly placed shot then there is probably very little difference in the outcome. Expecting to make a perfect shot in a stressful situation is dreaming, for most of us.
I personally think that, in today's world, the 9mm is the best choice for private individuals. They can be as small as most 380's, the ammo is generally less expensive so people can shoot more, the larger frame guns have a higher capacity than most other calibers, and modern ammo makes the caliber extremely effective. That doesn't mean that the ROUND is more effective than a 45 ACP or that the 45 is better than the .357 mag. Since the 45 is more powerful than the 9mm does it make the 9mm marginal?
All the cliches have come out: I don't want to be shot by one, better than a sharp stick, better in my pocket than in the drawer at home, 300 pound meth-head with 6" of clothing over his denim jacket, etc, and every one of these is true. I have never seen any account of a gunfight after which the participant said "I needed a smaller gun with lower capacity to make the fight fair". I have seen plenty where the participants needed more ammo. At times (Summer in Alabama) I carry a small pocket 9 or a pocket 380 with no extra magazines on my person. I understand the limitations of 6-7 rounds compared to extra mags or a full frame 9mm with 15 rounds but 100 degrees with 98% humidity calls for cargo shorts and a t-shirt and having extra mags in my pocket makes me look like a droopy drawered thug.
The 380 with modern ammunition is capable of protecting you and your loved ones. Is it the BEST round for that job? I don't think so. Does it have advantages in recoil and conceal-ability? In many cases, yes. Is it often carried in situations where a gun fight is expected to take place? No. All things being equal (frame size, recoil, capacity, shooter competence) would I choose it over a 9mm or a 45? Probably not. Do I feel at a disadvantage with my S&W Bodyguard in my pocket? No.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Why are we still arguing potato and potatoe? The question is whether or not the 380 round is marginal. I don't recall reading that it was better than the larger calibers. Assuming a perfectly placed shot then there is probably very little difference in the outcome.

Scroll up sonny, research does show others are better.

Deaf

 

[JR47]

Yet, according to the developers of the FBI Protocols, there "is no difference" between premium 9x19, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP in their latest position paper. So......much of this discussion, that makes so much of those protocols, MUST be wrong? Read the report.

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

As for gaming scenarios, be careful not to forge boldly into fantasy. Shooting into a car while your child is in there, and through glass and sheet-metal? Even Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal would hesitate to do that. Same with Jerry Miculek.

Besides, in such a gaming scenario, the round fired into the sir by the Bad Guy as he entered your car, clearing room around the car, is headed back down now. Game that it hits you in the shoulder as you trigger that carefully aimed shot into your car. It knocks your aim off, and your child collects a brain-shot. Fantasy? Any more than the gaming to put you into that position? I think not. There are going to be times when it's safer, more legal, and smarter to just not shoot. Gaming some super-hero response should really stay in the mind. It has NO place in reality.

 

[george burns]

7 pages huh?

 

[MCgunner]

I have carried the .380 and i have carried less. My normal EDC is a .38 revolver which loaded with 158 +P I consider superior to .380. When I go to town, normally these days i'll put a holster on my belt and carry a .357 magnum which I consider FAR superior to the .380 in MY hands. Some might not be able to handle it, i understand that, but I've been flinchless with .357 since the 70s and 550 ft lbs with a 140 JHP gives me the warm fuzzies.

With me, it all depends on threat level. Going to the big cities, I'll often arm up with a 16 shot 9x19 on my belt or an 8 shot .45ACP. Call me paranoid, don't care.

I haven't carried my .380 in years, though. If I can carry it, I can carry my Kel Tec P11 with 11 rounds of +P 9 producing TWICE the energy and 115 grains of bullet.

 

[Teachu2]

I'm a proponent of carrying the largest size and caliber handgun that the individual can shoot well and conceal effectively. Any gun is better than no gun. A .380, .32, .25, or .22lr may be it for some, but not for me - at least so far.

It's a fallacy to judge how proficient people using a particular caliber are based upon observations of the number of shots fired at a range.