why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[Dr.Rob]

Can't say I'm happy with a .380 for home defense... I know I can shoot it, I know it's lethal... but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I thought someone was trying to break into my house.

It's your HD gun... you aren't limited to what you can put in your pocket.

 

[Mad Chemist]

magyvor,
No problem. My GF has a .380 Colt Mustang. I had the sights replaced with a Big Dot and smoothed the trigger; it's a fun gun to shoot. I bought her some JHP ammo (90 gr Gold Dots IIRC) which should be better if it ever was used for SD. I also bought her a Ruger SP-101 .357 which she prefers because she shoots it better.

How is the trigger for her?
Most of my female friends had trouble with the trigger on my SP101. They complained it was too heavy.

 

[horge]

Can't say I'm happy with a .380 for home defense... I know I can shoot it, I know it's lethal... but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I thought someone was trying to break into my house.

It's your HD gun... you aren't limited to what you can put in your pocket.

Few can accuse me of disliking the BERSA Thunder 380
I trust it, and the cartridge it's chambered for.

That said...I also have full size 1911 in .45 ACP at bedside.
I ought to find a decent scattergun one of these days, too...

 

[JohnKSa]

SD is about stopping the BG, not killing him

Yes, and the fear of being killed is sufficient to STOP a BG the vast majority of the time--without a shot being fired!

We like to forget that in over 90% of SUCESSFUL self-defense situations where a gun is used, it is either not fired, or it is fired but the attacker is not hit. In a good number of additional cases, the attacker is hit once and immediately gives up, regardless of whether the injury is severe or not.

Therefore, in nearly all self-defense gun uses, the caliber of the gun is totally irrelevant, because the self-preservation instinct is sufficiently strong to re-align the attacker's immediate priorities.

NOW, am I saying that one shouldn't even consider what caliber or firearm to carry because the psychological effect of producing or firing a gun is almost always sufficient to end a confrontation? NO!

But it is worth remembering that caliber is only VERY rarely relevant--even in the cases where a gun is used successfully in self-defense.

 

[Davo]

The .380 is enough.....As a side note, the terms "one shot stop" and "real world" shouldn't be used in the same conversation.

Here Here.

 

[Iorndealer]

Nov 30, 2005, Mt. Vernon NY, There was an armed holdup of a check cashing place. Bad guy continues to fires 5 shoots at manager at distance of 12 feet. They all miss. While Manager returns fire with 6 shoots. Thank god bad guy misses Manager. Manager hits Bad guy with 4 rounds before dropping. Manager weapon G19, Ammo 124grain HP. Manager my personal friend and FFL. This was on Wednesday. I spoke with him on Friday. His comment upon weapon choice. "I'm going back to my .45"

If you practice "running in place" for a while then draw your weapon and fire at a target you'll get some idea what it's like to shoot under stress. If you can hit what you aim at 100% of the time carry any caliber you prefer. If you can't chose a caliber that starts with a 4.

 

[Borachon]

This was on Wednesday. I spoke with him on Friday. His comment upon weapon choice. "I'm going back to my .45"

Before he does that, have him go look at some of my earlier posts. You'll find several that point out people shot with .45s that continued to run, jump, shoot, or whatever after being hit multiple times. Even in the chest.

If you can hit what you aim at 100% of the time carry any caliber you prefer. If you can't chose a caliber that starts with a 4.

If I ran all that way, and then tried to lift a gun that used a caliber that started with .4, I wouldn't be able to lift it. .4 caliber guns being heavy and all.

And by the way...if I can't hit what I aim at...does it matter if I'm carrying a .4 or a howitzer shell? If I'm gonna miss....what does my caliber matter?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And by the way...if I can't hit what I aim at...does it matter if I'm carrying a .4 or a howitzer shell? If I'm gonna miss....what does my caliber matter?

The point being, I think, that if precise shot placement is not possible, the bigger the bullet the better -- as a larger bullet offers more likelihood of structural damage in the target.

Shooting under stress does screw things up.

I want to shoot the largest calibre I can handle well under stress. If competition is any indication (and I think its SOME indication) that means that for me its probably not .45, but it is certainly 9mm or .40...

 

[MCgunner]

victim disarmament zones

Bwaaa, ha, ha! I like that one!

Well, if I had my druthers, I'd carry a shotgun in my pocket, but seeing as it won't fit, the .380 gets carried a lot. I have confidence in the gun to make hits and mine carries 12 rounds with a spare mag in my pocket. I feel it's adequate. I feel at least as well armed as with my five shot .38. I'd rather have my 9 or .45 or a .357 or a shotgun, but there are lots of times I need pocket carry. Everyone should have a pocket gun they've confidence in, IMHO, cause there are lots of times that's all you can really carry due to social demands and the above disarmament zones. The realities of the world sometimes intrude on our theories of killing power.

That 96 percent for a 230 grain .45 looks high for Marshall's stats. I seem to recollect the best .45s coming in at the high 80s with 9mm stats. I've often suspected +P .45s would score better, though, and I feel pretty well armed with my .45, just that I don't particularly believe that number. It looks to be driven by an agenda. Perhaps not. The .45 can put up some good energy with the right loads and it don't have to expand much to dump that energy in tissue.

Speaking of stats, if I hit the bad guy twice center mass with that .380 load, would that mean that I'd stop him 142 percent of the time? Hmm, probably not, eh?

 

[revolvergeek]

If you are confident in it and can shoot it well, then the .380 is probably fine. Personally, I see no need for a .380 when there are so many good small frame 9mms out there. I carry a Glock 26 about 80% of the time and it gives a very nice power/size/weight ratio, with very controlable recoil.

That said, if I had a minty fresh vintage PPK, Remington 51 or Colt 1903 I would have to carry it sometimes just because it was cool. I have my eye on a Mauser Hsc .380 (Interarms import) at a local pawnshop for $159 right now, but I doubt that I will carry it much if I do end up with it.

 

[Davo]

Its not what you hit with, its whats hit.

C'mon guys this is starting to get old. Its not voodoo, ANY round that penetrates to a vital structure and causes rapid blood loss will stop a bad guy. A .22 short to the aorta or corotid will usually stop someone dead. A 500 S@W to the pinkie wont. IF YOUR caliber/round of choice can make a certain minimum of penetration, than its fine. I believe that .380 is the minimum caliber to do this reliably, and would defend myself with one. True the .45 makes a slightly bigger hole, but perhaps the extra couple shots you may fire with a smaller caliber will make the difference. There is no way any of us can know if we will ever need to shoot in self defense, and obviously no way to know what the bad guy is gonna be doing and how he will react to be shot at-its way too variable and truthfully so is shot placement in a bad situation.
Well now im off to learn some Christmas carols to sing to kidergarteners next week with my trusty guitar.
Merry Christmas all!

 

[riverdog]

I went to a local gunshop to look at and buy a .380; I looked at Beretta, Walther and CZ. Then I looked at and bought a Glock G-19. 9mm ammo is cheaper than .380 -- go figure.

 

[MCgunner]

I gotta agree with the "if you're carrying IWB, why not a compact 9" logic. My .380 only gets carried when I want a pocket gun with more punch than my NAA .22. I don't have a bigger caliber that hides in a pocket so well. That's the sole purpose of that .380 in my collection.

IMHO, the good part of the 10 round magazine legislation was the development of the compact nines that followed. It was an extension of the above logic, if you gotta only carry ten rounds anyway, why not just carry a .40 or .45 in the same size gun? The compact nines make HUGE sense for the CCW carrier and the gun companies have capitalized on favorable CCW legislation around the country by offering them. They are mighty handy little cannons, no bigger or heavier than a J frame of non-unobtainium construction. If I'm going to carry IWB, my 14 ounce, 11 shot 9mm loaded with 115 grain Corbons trumps a Bersa in MY belt.

 

[gringolet]

hits

although I am not a big believer in pinpoint shooting under life-threatened stress..I will say the 380 has some great attributes...first, most apt to be carried...second, shot placement may be better than with something with heavier recoil and blast...
I do think if a person can empty the mag of a 380 into the BG before the BG can get his 40 something into play... the fight is very probably over...
and even if not, is unlikely the man with all the slugs in him is going to be able to hit a running man anyway!....

 

[Borachon]

The point being, I think, that if precise shot placement is not possible, the bigger the bullet the better -- as a larger bullet offers more likelihood of structural damage in the target.

I'm having a tough time imagining when shot placement is not possible. Can you give me a scenario or an example? I don't mean that saracastically. I really just lack the imagination to picture what you're talking about.

And if this larger bullet is actually causing the imprecise shot placement in the first place due to its massive recoil...or heavy 5lbs weight of the gun...or bulkiness of the gun...or unawkwardness in smaller hands....then this loss of shot placement is somewhat offset because the bullet you are firing is a bigger bullet?

 

[Onslaught]

I've got another scenario for you. You see a guy beating up on his girlfriend and you interfere. He's drunk and doesn't stop when you tell him to freeze. He shoots you. You shoot him.

How's that for a scenario?

Huh?

I'm having a tough time imagining when shot placement is not possible. Can you give me a scenario or an example? I don't mean that saracastically. I really just lack the imagination to picture what you're talking about.

Thing is, you just can't "imagine" a scenario and have it actually come down within 100 miles of the real deal if it happened. "Scenarios" are mostly a waste of time. EXCEPT for the "F-U, no F-U... what? you want a piece a me?" bar arguement fights where shooting CAN NOT be legally justified as self defense, ATTACKS from actual BAD GUYS come hard, fast, and usually from a direction OTHER THAN head-on! How can you expect to have shot placement if the bad guy gets his hands on you before you saw him coming, or at least soon enough to get your hands on your weapon?

Ultimately, I have no dog in this fight. I do not care about the caliber. I am not disagreeing with .380 being not enough, too much, or just right. My sole purpose for EVER commenting in this thread was the amusing original scenario where the poster had all that time to manipulate his cover garment, reach and pull his carry pistol, clear the holster and cover garment, click the safety, take a weaver stance, wink at his girlfriend, spit,and then place 3 shots into aforementioned 320# bad-guy's chest in 1 second then pause for effect while he considers firing 7 more into the guy's face!

 

[Borachon]

I've got another scenario for you. You see a guy beating up on his girlfriend and you interfere. He's drunk and doesn't stop when you tell him to freeze. He shoots you. You shoot him.

That's not a scenario. That's an actual event.

My sole purpose for EVER commenting in this thread was the amusing original scenario where the poster had all that time to manipulate his cover garment, reach and pull his carry pistol, clear the holster and cover garment, click the safety, take a weaver stance, wink at his girlfriend, spit,and then place 3 shots into aforementioned 320# bad-guy's chest in 1 second then pause for effect while he considers firing 7 more into the guy's face!

Ok. But I didn't think you'd posted the whole

The point being, I think, that if precise shot placement is not possible, the bigger the bullet the better -- as a larger bullet offers more likelihood of structural damage in the target.

comment.

 

[Michael Courtney]

I like the .380, but then I like most guns.

I've got a Sig P232, which is a very high quality .380 ACP which is a bit big for pocket carry.

I shoot my P229 much better than the P232. I actually didn't think the P232 was very accurate until I saw my wife shoot it.

As an NRA Basic Pistol instructor, I can say that I've seen a number of students shoot the cheaper .380's. From what I've seen in terms of shot placement, I really can't recommend them.

So, in principle, I think that the .380 is an OK self-defense gun, certainly it is a lot better than being unarmed. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who don't shoot them as well as necessary in a self-defense situation. My wife can keep all her shots in a baseball sized group with the Sig P232, but I haven't seen anyone do that with the cheaper .380's. Just about every student I've had can shoot pretty well with a P229.

Michael Courtney

 

[MCgunner]

I like the .380, but then I like most guns.

I've got a Sig P232, which is a very high quality .380 ACP which is a bit big for pocket carry.

I shoot my P229 much better than the P232. I actually didn't think the P232 was very accurate until I saw my wife shoot it.

As an NRA Basic Pistol instructor, I can say that I've seen a number of students shoot the cheaper .380's. From what I've seen in terms of shot placement, I really can't recommend them.

So, in principle, I think that the .380 is an OK self-defense gun, certainly it is a lot better than being unarmed. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who don't shoot them as well as necessary in a self-defense situation. My wife can keep all her shots in a baseball sized group with the Sig P232, but I haven't seen anyone do that with the cheaper .380's. Just about every student I've had can shoot pretty well with a P229.

Michael Courtney

From three to seven yards, with the Davis I had for a while (an under 100 dollar pot metal gun) I could keep 'em inside a baseball, no problem. Can do it with my Grendel, too. But, then, I'm not a beginner. I ain't Annie Oakley either, though.

That Davis would place all its shots into about 6 inches at 25 yards off sandbags, the Grendel is a little better, 4-5 inches. That's pretty impressive for a cheap gun I think. I admit, most of 'em couldn't do that, but that Davis was pretty amazing. I'd read the same thing about it in the Zines, why I got one to try out on a lark. I didn't keep it, was heavy for its size and a striker fired gun. It was quite reliable, though. I sold it for what I paid for it, though. Actually, I think I put it on a football pot out at work for the half time prize.

 

[Michael Courtney]

From three to seven yards, with the Davis I had for a while (an under 100 dollar pot metal gun) I could keep 'em inside a baseball, no problem. Can do it with my Grendel, too. But, then, I'm not a beginner. I ain't Annie Oakley either, though.

If you can shoot your .380 well, great.

My point is simply that if you can't shoot the .380 that you'ds carrying, you should carry something else. Most of my students who shoot poorly are using the P3AT.

Michael Courtney

 

[Robert J McElwain]

If you can shoot your .380 well, great.

My point is simply that if you can't shoot the .380 that you'ds carrying, you should carry something else. Most of my students who shoot poorly are using the P3AT.

Michael Courtney

If a person can't shoot straight, maybe they should get a Thunder Five. http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html

It's a pistol that shoots a .410 shotgun shell. If they can't hit the target with that, they should always wear running shoes.

Bob

 

[wbond]

I think you are a profit (as in biblical wise man)

To Magyvor (who started this discussion):

A-men to everything you said. Particulary, the best cartridge for a given person is the biggest THEY can COMFORTABLY and ACCURATELY handle in the SIZE-WEIGHT gun THEY choose to carry.

Let me just add that you forgot to mention that muzzle blast at closer than 3 feet will have a blinding effect on the BG's eyes. I'm referring to those head-face shots you mentioned using after the chest shots. Who could see anything after a muzzle blast near their face aimed at their face? That's like super heated mace plus a bullet to go with it. I got a powder burn from a handgun once and it made me dance and scream. So in the eyes? Then the bullet too.

I think you are a wise man. All that said, I'd still rather shoot a 9x18 from a CZ-83 than a .380.

I'm think the 9x18 is adequate, but few US citizens agree. At first I doubted the 9x18 myself, but the more I learn, the more comfortable I am with it. Since the 9x18 is the most my recoil sensitive hands can likely handle, it's good for me. Maybe a 9mm Para would be good for me too (in a delayed blowback), but I haven't tried that yet.

You made a great case for the .380 and the 9x18 should be better still.

I think I can add another argument to support you: Most of the world thinks the .380 is plenty and regard 9mm parabellum with hollow points as ideal. Can the rest of the world be wrong?

I think the rest of people in the world also have valid opinions. Most of them think the .380 is OK and the 9mm Para ideal (with hollow points). Many USA citizens also think the 9mm Para great. Since the 9x18 is in between, I think it must be OK. Besides, it was good enough for the Ruskies and they were weapons saavy.

Personally, I think the .380 OK for power and ideal for small carry size handguns that are still easy to shoot (like Bersas). I think 9x18 better than OK for a bit larger-heavier gun like CZ-83. The 9mm Para is ideal for mid and full size guns, in my opinion. These are my opinions. While I know most USA citizens disagree with me, most of the rest of the world agrees with me (and with you magyvor). This is good news for recoil sensitive people because it means you don't need super power to get it done. I used to shoot .40 cal easy before I had hand problems. Today I can't shoot .40 cal, but now I think that much power isn't necessary.

I'm with you Magyvor.