why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[Jacobus Rex]

I seem to chime in on this topic ever so often. Regarding leaving the gun at home if you aren't going to be able to carry it on you:

I've had a Texas CHL since the very first batch that was issued. I have had to use my handgun on one occasion. Luckly, I didn't have to fire. However, it was a day that I would have left my P95 at home if I had been unwilling to leave it in my car.

Had I not been willing to use my P95 as a "car gun" on that particular day, I would have been unarmed on the one occasion when I REALLY needed it.

I feel that principle can also be applied to the .380 debate. Having a gun is the first rule of gun fighting. The rest of gun fighting has a lot more to do with the man behind the gun, not the gun itself.

 

[Borachon]

The rest of gun fighting has a lot more to do with the man behind the gun, not the gun itself.

Exactly. Like a badly written movie with good special effects. Without the story (the man) behind it, the special effects (the gun) won't save the movie.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I thought I mentioned that bigger is better. And I also agree, and thought I wrote, that I dont know how I would react in a SD situation. No one does. Again, my point is that ANY caliber doesnt guarentee your safety...training and mindset will certainly help though.

Very true. I just read a report on another web site about a bad guy who was shot four (4) times COM with .45 ACP (one round went clear through him and shattered a window behind him) and survived to be arrested and convicted.

 

[Borachon]

Anyone have any data on .380 penetration when it is fired from a 5in barrel?
Most of the comparison data that I see comparing say a .45ACP and a .380 has the .45 being fired from a 5in barrel, and the .380 being fired from a 3.5 or shorter barrel.

I'm curious how much of a difference it makes in terms of penetration, self defense rating, etc when they are both shot from the same length barrels.

Or conversely, does anyone have data on .45ACP fired from a 3.5 inch barrel that can be used for comparison?

I got curious after I read this link, posted by Kurush earlier in this thread.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm

This link showed the .380HP expanding to .45 and penetrating an average of 11.2 inches.

Isn't this a comparable diameter to firing a FMJ .45ACP?
So how is this so very different from carrying a 1911 loaded with FMJ?

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm not a big fan of the Kurtz round, but if that's all I had, I could make it count. Would I feel the need to expend more rounds to get the job done? Probably. But then again, when panic's gnawing at the edges and you just want the guy to fall down already, I'd probably go for slide-lock no matter what the caliber. I don't know what kind of radioactive 800lb meth-crazed gorillas exist out there (and I don't doubt they exist), but in most cases a human being will realize that something's terribly wrong after taking 5-6 rounds of anything COM and cease whatever shenanigans they had planned.

.380 is really the low-end in terms of performance, but I've found it to be quite accurate, and what's more, with blowback designs, I've noticed very little muzzle-climb, and limp-wristing seems to be a non-issue (I would never trust my life to a weapon that chokes when limp-wristed--I can't be sure I won't be holding the gun at an awkward angle when it's needed). Marshall/Sanow seemed to like it better than .38 FWIW.

One thing I've always noticed in these debates is that hand-to-hand training is never mentioned, as if the gun is the be-all-end-all solution to any self-defense problem. If you're just counting on the gun, there's a good chance you may not even get the chance to draw it if you don't know what you're doing at close quarters. You have to be able to read movements and patterns and learn to use your weak hand to clear your strong one for drawing and firing.

On the other hand, if you get pushed into a confrontation and you have the right mindset, you can make any caliber count.

 

[English John]

I don't want to get flamed, but...

The best advice I read from Marshall was that the 3 most important things about SD w/ a handgun are bullet placement, bullet placement,... and bullet placement. The best contribution from Ayoob was; you need Mental Awareness and Preparedness, Tactics, and Skill with the Equipment. Notice what comes last. If you are good with your pistol, practice, AND CARRY IT, you should do OK in a close confrontation. Remember that most LE shootings probably involve crazy angles and barracade problems (FBI 1986 is a good example); most civilian shootings are frontal at close range. My 2 duty weapons were a .45, which I gave to my son, and a .357, which is in the safe. I've been carrying a FEG SMC .380 in Alessi leather all day. I'm still OK.

 

[Manedwolf]

Time for an old quote:

A .22 in the you're hand beats a .45 in the safe at home.

Sure we would all like to carry a 45 at all times, but sometimes reality dictates that something smaller must be used or go with no gun at all.

Though if you're going to go for a caliber that small, I'd change that quote to .25...just because all the holdouts in those calibers are nearly exactly the same size, and the centerfire is typically more reliable than the rimfire.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I owned a .380 for some time, but ended up getting rid of it due to consistant FTF and FTE issues. It was a Hi-Point, which aren't exactly famous for their quality, so failures had more to do with that than anything else, I'm sure. I carry a 1911 now, as my wants in a pistol / caliber have changed dramatically since turning 21 (a whopping 4 years ago), but I did have the opportunity to meet someone who had been shot with a .380 at close range COM (from behind), and talk to him about the experience.

The bullet went almost straight through, leaving a small hole in the back, and a huge, jagged scar where it exited in the stomach. Apparently, he was shot trying to run from a conflict. Obviously, he didnt know anything about ballistics or stats, so I have no details to give about what ammo the bad guys were using - He said his only recollection was trying to run away, and waking up in the hospital a little over a week later.

Personally, I will stick with my 1911 and the .45acp - not to support any type of caliber war, but it's my personal preference for a myriad of reasons, first being that is what I perform best with. I will say however, hearing about this guys experience (and seeing such a big and ugly scar) is proof that a .380 can be enough to instantly stop a human being.

But, I wouldnt use .380 if given a choice, but it's a helluva lot better than throwing rocks

 

[Mad Chemist]

One thing I've always noticed in these debates is that hand-to-hand training is never mentioned, as if the gun is the be-all-end-all solution to any self-defense problem. If you're just counting on the gun, there's a good chance you may not even get the chance to draw it if you don't know what you're doing at close quarters. You have to be able to read movements and patterns and learn to use your weak hand to clear your strong one for drawing and firing.

On the other hand, if you get pushed into a confrontation and you have the right mindset, you can make any caliber count.

Bravo Erik!

True SD draws from multiple skill sets, firearms training is only one of them.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I knew someone would disect that......Awesome Dood.

I have only one problem with your opinion....because opinion it is

you wrote "More often than not, there will be more than one bad guy. "......ummm, actually, almost all SD situations are 1 BG at very close range, and less that a few shots fired.

Doctors precision on the disection though

Yep, my opinion is my opinion, but it has one major advantage over yours. My opinion isn't concerned with putting too much faith into a marginal defense caliber.

Almost all self defense situations are on bad guy at very close range? That is counter to my education. The firearms instructors at Dallas PD have it that there are multiple bad guys in about 60% of the cases. The folks at Thunder Ranch and Rangemaster also seem to believe multiple bad guys are a common problem as well. Not all bad guys involved are involved directly in a fight as some act as lookouts, getaway drivers, etc. Those same folks, may or may not come into play in a fight, but you don't have any way to know that. It is the unseen bad guy, the one you are not fixated on, that very well may pose the greatest threat to your well being. Why? Because you don't know he is there.

Since the issue is about .380s, just how many police agencies currently have the .380 as a primary handgun caliber. I know several that allow them for BUGs or off duty guns, but not for the primary duty handgun. How many militaries have the .380 as their primary pistol caliber?

My opinions are my opinions, but they seem to be well backed by a lot of groups that count on guns. The .380 is not an ideal defensive caliber and not one to be counted on as being "enough."

 

[Lord_Rahl]

My 2 cents

Though i would mention this. I use to carry a .32 shot colt revolver, but recently upgraded to a .380acp While this is a smaller calibur then i normally fire at the range i have been taking it out and firing about 300 rounds or so a week. most of my guns are .45 long colts and just to large for my to conceal carry. My new PPk manages that well nd i have been please with it's results at the range. Twice now when working (~1am on the bad side of town) i have had to pull it out... as always if i pull a weapon i intend to shot.. the only reason i didn't is cause when i put the gun to the bastards head he dropped his and ran off. in that case calibur makes no difference

 

[magyvor]

Double Nought Spy.......

I started this thread to get a reaction out of people. It worked. It has given me some great information, and a few insights I had not previously considered.

I accept that some people design their defense based upon information collected. Thats exactly what I have done. Im not going to try and explain the years and years of information I have gathered through Shooting guns, talking with people, reading, watching TV, taking classes, doing research, quiet contemplation, experimentaion.......and on and on. At a minimum anyone can do a google search to look up information.

NO WHERE IN THIS THREAD have I tried to tell anyone that they were wrong in their choice of caliber for SD.

So for me, the conclusion as to what caliber I use for self defense is based on (and this is a very brief summation) years of thought and data.

1. you can find NUMEROUS accounts of ALL size calibers incapacitating people. You can find NUMEROUS accounts of ALL size calibers NOT incapacitating people. So, I feel that there is no perfect caliber to use to STOP a threat in a SD situation. In fact, if you have followed this thread, there are many links to that very subject.

2. For private citizens, most SD situations are 1 on 1, few shots fired, close to home, if not in the home.

3. Being aware of your surroundings, using common sense, and avoiding dangerous situations to begin with is a better tool for SD than any gun.

4. You must have the mindset to be willing to ACT if your life is threatened, or other innocents lives are threatened.

5. Practice, shot placement, and reliability are MY first concerns for a using a gun as a tool for SD.

I could go on, but my coffee is getting cold.

I know I made some outragious statements in this thread. But what it all boils down to is that I BELIEVE A 380 IS ENOUGH, you dont have to, but I do.

By the way, I had a great Holiday, and Hope everyone else did as well

P.S.-----"Double Naught Spy"---isnt that a reference to James Bond, who used a 380?

 

[riverdog]

1. you can find NUMEROUS accounts of ALL size calibers killing people. You can find NUMEROUS accounts of ALL size calibers NOT killing people. In fact, if you have followed this thread, there are many links to that very subject.

Before we get too far away from this, remember that SD is about stopping the BG, not killing him. The .380 doesn't have a great track record as a stopper, which is why military and LE types don't use it except as a back-up or hide-out. A .22LR can kill, but I wouldn't bet my life on it during a close encounter, killing isn't my goal, surviving contact with the BG is my goal. .45ACP JHP's have a poor track record of expanding from a 3" barrel, but I'll take that gun shooting FMJ or non-expanding JHP's over a .380 any day. My opinion, YMV.

 

[magyvor]

Riverdog......

Thanks for pointing that out....but believe me, I didnt intend to say that in a SD situation that was the goal.

If you read all the posts and replys by me in this thread, that will become obvious.

I will edit it though, to make it clearer

By the way, In Salem Or where I live, a couple weeks ago a BG was shot with an assault rifle CM to the chest by a SWAT team member, and just got out of the hospital a few days ago to await trial. I heard that he didnt just drop imediately, but took a few seconds to decide he had had enough.

 

[riverdog]

magyvor,
No problem. My GF has a .380 Colt Mustang. I had the sights replaced with a Big Dot and smoothed the trigger; it's a fun gun to shoot. I bought her some JHP ammo (90 gr Gold Dots IIRC) which should be better if it ever was used for SD. I also bought her a Ruger SP-101 .357 which she prefers because she shoots it better.

 

[Biker]

For me, it's about edges and increasing the odds of dropping your opponant. On rare occasions, I carry an AMT 380 BU. However, I prefer my 40 or 45. Fact is, they make bigger holes and bigger holes mean a better chance of hitting something important and doing more damage.
Biker

 

[Borachon]

Fact is, they make bigger holes and bigger holes mean a better chance of hitting something important and doing more damage.

True...if the penetration allows it to get deep enough to do damage. If it only goes 3in into the skin, then it's better to have an ice pick.

 

[Biker]

True...if the penetration allows it to get deep enough to do damage. If it only goes 3in into the skin, then it's better to have an ice pick.

Fair enough, but I'm not aware of any modern 40 or 45 HPs or solids that penetrate only 3 inches. If there are any, kindly let me know just in case I'm carrying them. BTW, I run Hydro-Shoks in everything except my Taurus 450 which is loaded with 225 gr Silvertips in town and 260 LSWC handloads in the woods.
Biker

 

[Borachon]

If there are any, kindly let me know just in case I'm carrying them.

Until you shoot a person, you won't know.

Too many variables involved to say with certainty that any bullet will always perform the way you expect it. Some of the earlier links were provided to illustrate that point. A couple of the links I read had .45 bullets bouncing off skulls. Failing to penetrate because of adverse weather conditions (shooting a frozen winter coat) or because of some unknown factor about the person you shoot. (Having a wooden leg)

I'll got out on a limb and state that I think a .45 fired from a 3in barrel has more of chance of shooting shallow than an equal cartridge fired from a 5in barrel.

Surely someone on the 'Net has got penetration data for a .45ACP fired from a 3in barrel. That would at least give a comparison between .45 from a 5in barrel, and allow for cross comparison with other calibers.

 

[jkswiss]

Dunno where you guys live, but here in Washington state leaving a loaded firearm inside a vehicle is illegal, even if you have a carry permit. The weapon must be on your person or directly under your control at all times.

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Its perfectly allowable to leave your gun locked up in your car. What you said was news to me so I had to check up on it, as I'm a CCWer in WA state.

 

[Pilot]

P.S.-----"Double Naught Spy"---isnt that a reference to James Bond, who used a 380?

No. Its a reference to Jethro Bodine in "The Beverly Hillbillies". And James Bond did not carry a .380. He carried a Walther PPK in 7.65 MM (.32 auto). "With a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window", whatever the hell that means.

 

[joab]

"With a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window", whatever the hell that means.

translation...
If you are shooting anything stronger than a plate glass window you would be better off with a brick

 

[hylander]

I carry either my Sig P220 or my Glock 19 concealed in either a shoulder holster or side belt holster with no problem at all.

I think preference means alot. I prefer the .45 or 9mm. That is my choice and it works for me. Someone else might prefer the .380 and it works for them.

I think it also matters where you are living. Climate, cool, colder, freezing. What type of clothes are worn by the perp. Light clothes in summer, thin jacket or heavy coat, tshirt, sweater in winter.

There are a lot of reasons to carry different calibers.

Also, training is very important. Someone peeing their pants when a bad guy comes towards them is less likely to hit the bad guy with a .50 cal than someone with the training and confidence in their gun of choice be it a .22 or a .45.

Just my 2 or 3 cents.

 

[magyvor]

James Bond DID carry a 380 walther at some point...

 

[wrangler5]

James Bond DID carry a 380 walther at some point...

But Pilot's quote is accurate - I just watched the opening of "Dr No" the other night, which is when the Walther replaces Bond's Beretta whose failure put him "six months in hospital," according to M.