why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[meef]

I wish it came in 9x19. Other than that...great gun. And inexpensive too. If it gets ripped off...who cares?

Well - if it were my gun, I'd care. I'd care a lot.

And it's not about the money, either. I figure one of my responsibilities as a gun owner is to do my part as much as possible to prevent it ending up in the hands of someone who might do pretty terrible things with it.

I did have a pistol stolen once - from my house. Amazingly, they caught the guy and I got it back in about two weeks.

But let me assure you, they were two miserable weeks during which I worried big time about how my pistol might be used.

I would not, do not, leave guns in vehicles. It's not about the money.

 

[MrChicken]

Borachon;
As for distractions, at Rangemaster they had meet where one stage had a 20 gauge firing blanks positioned towards (but not at) the shooters. The effect was essentially that it was largely ignored by the shooters and they finished the business of shooting the BG's. You might have seen that on the show "Shooting Gallery" this year.

For who cares about your stolen gun, the person who is shot with it, and their family. I care and so do others, please dont leave your gun the car.

 

[Jacobus Rex]

Regarding leaving a gun in your gun:

Unfortunately, the reality is that it is often necessary to leave a firearm in your vehicle. There are even times when it is appropriate to have a car gun and a BUG on yourself. While, I'm not happy about the idea of leaving a weapon unattended, it is necessary at times. One exception is that I don't do so in high risk areas. We all leave weapons unattended at home every day. They may or may not ALL be locked in a safe and safes are not foolproof. I believe in taking all reasonable precautions, however, I will not stop carrying because a gun might be stolen. Install a good lock box or car safe in your vehicle if you feel that you have much of a theft risk. Lock boxes are good for other stuff as well.

 

[gunfan]

and the 10mm is basically a hot .40sw. The 10mm of course is the ballistic twin of the .357mag.

What have you been smoking?

Scott

 

[Borachon]

as a gun owner is to do my part as much as possible to prevent it ending up

Then leave your gun home in a safe. That's the MOST you can do to prevent it being stolen. Personally, I want mine to be a little closer to me.

My "who cares?" comment was a reflection on the ease with which I could replace an inexpensive, but to my mind QUALITY, firearm...versus having to buy a new Colt .45...an expense that would take some budget crunching to afford. My comment was NOT a reflection on how I'd feel if my gun was stolen...which, luckily, I've never had to experience. Although I did have my car stolen once, my handgun was not in it...and the car wasn't worth much anyway.

One exception is that I don't do so in high risk areas.

Define "high risk". I was parked next to the police station when my car got stolen. It's actually somewhat understandable though...I hadn't moved the car in a few days and I'm sure it looked like an abandoned vehicle to the thieves. No place is safe.

 

[Borachon]

The effect was essentially that it was largely ignored by the shooters and they finished the business of shooting the BG's.

Yeah, that wasn't exactly a good distraction. The distraction would need to be something unexpected, moderately painful, or designed to be disorienting or confusing. A blank shotgun that isn't pointed at anyone? It's just a loud noise. Someone (there are plenty of Nuns who'll do this) wacking you on the top of the head with a ruler while you are shooting? THAT would be distracting. Or run a Hogan's Alley course, turn the corner, and see...A HIGHLY ATTRACTIVE NUDE FEMALE CARDBOARD CUT OUT! "What the---?!" Which isn't entirely unrealistic...some gangs will use attractive females to distract their intended victims....or if you find yourself in a domestic violence situation, it's not uncommon for one or both parties to be in the nude....or if you see a woman escaping from a sexual assault. By the time you get through thinking "That guy ain't got no pants on!" he or someone else close by, might have shot you.

Like I say, you can't train for everything...but throwing an unexpected monkey wrench in every once in a while can't hurt. I went to an indoor range once that was very well designed. I told the rangemaster to distract me while I was shooting. So he turned off the lights while I was in the middle of shooting!!! I had to admit to him afterward that I REALLY hadn't seen that one coming!

 

[sarge48]

Happy Holidays.

I carry a .32 as my THIRD gun off duty.

Glock 23
Kahr PM9
P32
Big Mean folding tanto

Remember during a gunfight is not the time to find out you shoulda been more prepared either in equipment or preparation.

I have seen people shot with .380's. Carry a 9mm or better.

 

[Iggy]

I've have been reading this thread as it developed and watching all that has been said.

I don't like discussing this, but I think I must say something.

I have been in two FTF encounters of the fatal kind. These occurred over 30 years ago. I was in LE and carried a .41 mag with JHP's.

Our only training back then was firing the PPC course periodically and qualification once a year. I had never heard of a double tap or any of the stuff that is accepted and instructed today.

In each case it came to a draw and fire to stop an individual doing the same thing with the intent to put me underground.

In both cases I fired twice before the individual went down. I just shot until they quit.

In each case both rounds went COM. The guys didn't fly backwards. They just seemed like the air went out of them, and they went down.

For what it's worth, in both instances, I was wishing that .41 Magnum was a .75 or .80!

Today I carry a 10mm , and if I was to carry a BUG, it would be another 10mm.

 

[meef]

Quote: meef
as a gun owner is to do my part as much as possible to prevent it ending up

Then leave your gun home in a safe. That's the MOST you can do to prevent it being stolen. Personally, I want mine to be a little closer to me.

You took my statement a bit out of context. I choose to carry whenever possible and practical, apparently the same as yourself. I also choose not to carry if I know that I'm going to be somewhere that I can not keep my firearm in my possession and would be required to leave it in my car.

It has been suggested that in-vehicle measures such as a lock box or car safe would be advisable. I agree with this, although my car isn't currently so equipped.

Your original statement was "who cares" alluding only to the financial aspect of having a (cheap) gun stolen with no mention of anything else. That's what my post was responding to.

 

[Marshall]

I've have been reading this thread as it developed and watching all that has been said.

I don't like discussing this, but I think I must say something.

I have been in two FTF encounters of the fatal kind. These occurred over 30 years ago. I was in LE and carried a .41 mag with JHP's.

Our only training back then was firing the PPC course periodically and qualification once a year. I had never heard of a double tap or any of the stuff that is accepted and instructed today.

In each case it came to a draw and fire to stop an individual doing the same thing with the intent to put me underground.

In both cases I fired twice before the individual went down. I just shot until they quit.

In each case both rounds went COM. The guys didn't fly backwards. They just seemed like the air went out of them, and they went down.

For what it's worth, in both instances, I was wishing that .41 Magnum was a .75 or .80!

Today I carry a 10mm , and if I was to carry a BUG, it would be another 10mm.

Iggy,

Thanks for sharing that, can't be fond memories. I appreciate it and understand your point.

 

[Borachon]

I have seen people shot with .380's. Carry a 9mm or better

I've seen people shot with a .45. That's why I've been posting 'myth of the .45' links. Cause I know they aren't the end-all-be-all. In fact...none of them are the end-all-be-all. Plenty of stories about soldiers shot with guns more powerful than you and I could handle in a pistol.....soldiers who not only lived, but stormed the machinegun nest that shot them.

 

[Borachon]

Your original statement was "who cares" alluding only to the financial aspect of having a (cheap) gun stolen with no mention of anything else. That's what my post was responding to.

A valid criticism...I *should* have been more clear in my statement.

I also choose not to carry if I know that I'm going to be somewhere that I can not keep my firearm in my possession and would be required to leave it in my car.

I'm not always sure WHERE I will be from one hour to the next. I'm often directed to go places and don't know where I'll be. The scariest incident of this was when I was directed to go to a military base. A HUGE sign told me, "Do not bring firearms onto this facility."
Does that mean I need to take the pistol out of the glove compartment, and the rifle out of the trunk and leave them at the gate? Or should I just bluff my way through? (Turning around to leave wasn't an option) I elected to bluff my way through, and luckily didn't get caught. But 30 minutes before this, I had no idea I'd be there.

 

[Borachon]

.380 stories

http://www.geocities.com/mustacheman172002/Duty.html
Bowden fell to the ground, and Evans fired twice more at close range. Bowden was struck three times in the neck and shoulder above her body armor.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/1087467.html
Airline Hijacking Thwarted By .380

http://www.gazetteextra.com/rainiero110105.asp
November 1, 2005 Homeowner uses .380

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159143
Myth of the ONE-SHOT STOP...good reading. .45 caliber fired 5 times into suspect who describes them as feeling like, "bee stings". (That'll teach 'em for trying to arrest Steven Segall)

Sexual assualt victim. .380 to the stomach killed the assailant.
http://www.again.net/~steve/armedcitizen.html

According to the "Myth of the One Shot Stop" FBI document, 443 police officers were killed between 1993-2002. Of these....136 were killed by a 9mm, next highest number was 65 police officers killed by .38 special, and ranked 3rd was...you guessed it..... .380 with 43 police officers slain. A sad record...but it does show that .380s can be lethal.

 

[Marshall]

Hmm, howitzer or pellet gun? I can't decide.

Of course anything shot from a gun is lethal. Given the choice, I would gladly be armed with the largest caliber afforded to me with the ability to carry it easily. What carries easily to you can likely be different to me. What's affordable to you might be different than what's affordable to me. Different strokes for different folks and many times it's not just to be different, there are good reasons why. However, my vote definitely lies with "more power is better & bigger is better", all else being equal, which it rarely is.

 

[MrChicken]

Yeah, that wasn't exactly a good distraction. The distraction would need to be something unexpected, moderately painful, or designed to be disorienting or confusing. A blank shotgun that isn't pointed at anyone? It's just a loud noise. Someone (there are plenty of Nuns who'll do this) wacking you on the top of the head with a ruler while you are shooting? THAT would be distracting. Or run a Hogan's Alley course, turn the corner, and see...A HIGHLY ATTRACTIVE NUDE FEMALE CARDBOARD CUT OUT!

No shooter was told in advance of the SG. It was a surprise for them, somebody probably told a couple of people before they got onto the range, but it was intended to be an "unknown".

At the same meet, a live person played being your date, and they shook you while you tried to put down the BG's. You knew they would shake you, but that didnt help much...

 

[JohnKSa]

I also choose not to carry if I know that I'm going to be somewhere that I can not keep my firearm in my possession and would be required to leave it in my car.

That would effectively eliminate my ability to carry about 90% of the time I'm out of the house.

Of course, you realize that leaving your guns in your house unattended raises the chances that they will be stolen, right? If you REALLY cared about keeping your guns safe from theft, you'd stay home and guard them. Or, you might look into having the local constabulary hold them for you any time you're not using them.

I'm not going to let the POSSIBLE actions of a car thief prevent me from protecting myself. IMO, the fear of crime is a poor reason NOT to carry.

 

[meef]

Originally posted by: meef
I also choose not to carry if I know that I'm going to be somewhere that I can not keep my firearm in my possession and would be required to leave it in my car.

That would effectively eliminate my ability to carry about 90% of the time I'm out of the house.

Well, okay. I guess you go into federal buildings and such a lot. I don't.

Of course, you realize that leaving your guns in your house unattended raises the chances that they will be stolen, right? If you REALLY cared about keeping your guns safe from theft, you'd stay home and guard them. Or, you might look into having the local constabulary hold them for you any time you're not using them.

Fact is, I keep them in my gun safes at home. While I realize that's not perfect, it's the best I can do in my current circumstances - and I feel it's reasonable. My original post stated "I figure one of my responsibilities as a gun owner is to do my part as much as possible to prevent it ending up in the hands of someone who might do pretty terrible things with it." As to your suggestion regarding "having the local constabulary hold them for me" - that's unconstructive, pointless sarcasm.

I'm not going to let the POSSIBLE actions of a car thief prevent me from protecting myself.

Neither am I. That's why I carry on my person, rather than leaving my pistol in my car.

IMO, the fear of crime is a poor reason NOT to carry.

You kinda lost me there. I DO carry. My car does not carry, however. Not without me in it.

 

[JohnKSa]

You kinda lost me there. I DO carry.

You only carry when there's no possibility that you might have to leave your gun in the car. In other words, you DON'T carry when you might have to leave the gun in the car, and the reason you don't in those circumstances is due to the fear that the gun might be stolen. Therefore, you DON'T carry your gun in certain circumstances due to the fear of crime.

While I realize that's not perfect, it's the best I can do in my current circumstances...

It's not the best you could do in your current circumstances. You could immediately destroy all your guns. That would be the BEST you could to to "prevent your guns from ending up in the hands of someone who might do pretty terrible things with them." In fact, that would pretty much eliminate any possibility of your fear coming true.

Obviously, you feel that having guns in your home is important enough that it outweighs your desire to keep guns out of criminal's hands.

I feel that carrying anytime it is legal (which sometimes means leaving my gun in the car while I enter a legally restricted area) is important enough that it outweighs my desire to keep guns out of criminal's hands.

and I feel it's reasonable.

NOW we're getting to the crux of the matter. I understand that different people have different circumstances and different "thresholds of pain". I just object when they try to imply that their thresholds (what they think is "reasonable") make them better than someone else or that their thresholds are better and more carefully thought out.

 

[jlh26oo]

What have you been smoking?

Scott

LOL! Out of all my crazy assertions, you honed in on shortchanging the 10mm! So that was the only problem you had with my whole .22short = .357mag for SD, right? Did you notice that I quoted the guy who said "I feel equally safe with .380 as 9mm as .45acp", then juxtaposed a similarly outlandish... ah...

...nevermind.

Heh, I think I've figured out how you read forums: <CTRL F>, <1-0-m-m>, [find next], [find next], [find next], "what?! forty sw?! grrrr!! more like forty short and WEAK! yesssssss!", [find next], *finished searching the document*...

 

[meef]

You only carry when there's no possibility that you might have to leave your gun in the car. In other words, you DON'T carry when you might have to leave the gun in the car, and the reason you don't in those circumstances is due to the fear that the gun might be stolen. Therefore, you DON'T carry your gun in certain circumstances due to the fear of crime.

If you choose to arrive at the conclusion that minimizing the risk of arming someone who should not be armed is fear, that works for me. I don't run red lights or stop signs because I fear getting a ticket or causing a wreck. I work regularly at my job because I fear becoming penniless and dependent. I don't leave my pistol in my car because I fear crime. Call these fears or call them reasoned choices. Or... get on the logic wheel and weave a semantic roadmap to any destination you prefer.

It's not the best you could do in your current circumstances. You could immediately destroy all your guns. That would be the BEST you could to to "prevent your guns from ending up in the hands of someone who might do pretty terrible things with them." In fact, that would pretty much eliminate any possibility of your fear coming true.

Obviously, you feel that having guns in your home is important enough that it outweighs your desire to keep guns out of criminal's hands.

Suggesting, however facetiously, delivering my guns to the local constabulary or destroying them is ongoing exaggeration for the sake of illustration that doesn't really accomplish much. I'm a gun owner that takes that particular right pretty seriously.

I feel that carrying anytime it is legal (which sometimes means leaving my gun in the car while I enter a legally restricted area) is important enough that it outweighs my desire to keep guns out of criminal's hands.

Your choice. If there are any consequences, those are yours too. Not my call.

NOW we're getting to the crux of the matter. I understand that different people have different circumstances and different "thresholds of pain". I just object when they try to imply that their thresholds (what they think is "reasonable") make them better than someone else or that their thresholds are better and more carefully thought out.

Your crux. My initial post was in response to a statement made that losing a firearm (to whoever) was no big deal as long as it was a cheap firearm. That was my reason for responding. That issue has since been addressed and clarified. Not that it had to be. Nobody owes me any explanations here.

You're comfortable leaving firearms in your vehicle, I'm not. You will, I won't.

All that said, I've been off topic long enough. You can have the last shot.

 

[dsk]

Dunno where you guys live, but here in Washington state leaving a loaded firearm inside a vehicle is illegal, even if you have a carry permit. The weapon must be on your person or directly under your control at all times.

 

[coylh]

Dsk, the law seems to allow an exception:

(iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

-- http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?section=9.41.050&fuseaction=section

 

[Borachon]

Dunno where you guys live, but here in Washington state leaving a loaded firearm inside a vehicle is illegal, even if you have a carry permit.

Wow. What a dumb law.

Mississippi considers your car to be an extension of your home. Carrying a gun in your car is considered to be carrying a gun around in your house. With a couple of exceptions around hunting season....when you aren't suppose to have a loaded rifle in the car. Which is a dumb law for us.

Ever notice how many dumb laws we have in this country?

 

[JohnKSa]

You can have the last shot.

Riiiight.

If there are any consequences, those are yours too.

Nope--absolutely NOT. The consequences are the CRIMINAL'S.

The idea that my legal actions make me responsible for the actions of criminals is logically bankrupt, and your implications along those lines are odious.

I lock the car, I don't leave things visible. Those are reasonable precautions. Even if there is no gun in the car, a criminal might steal the car anyway and use it to injure or kill someone. You can't live your life trying to prevent crime by handicapping yourself. The person who has a car stolen is not responsible for a wreck that may result. The person who has a gun stolen is not responsible for what the thief does with it.

You are clearly free to do as you please, but your implication that gunowners should handicap themselves by not legally carrying (in certain circumstances) in order to try to reduce the chances of having a gun stolen smacks of a misguided attempt to shift responsibility from the criminal to the VICTIM.

 

[Borachon]

I feel equally safe with .380 as 9mm as .45acp", then juxtaposed a similarly outlandish

Can you really say it's outlandish for someone to FEEL they are equally safe carrying one firearm versus another?

So far, it doesn't seem that anyone has yet come up with a system that reliably measures "Safety Protection Feel" emitted by one type of handgun versus another. But I guess we are assuming that the .45 has a higher "safety protection feel" versus a .380 though?

One of the links I posted eariler showed that, of the number of police officer killed between 1993-2002, more of them died from being shot with a .380 than from shots with a .45. And that almost 4 times as many were killed with the "weanie europellet" 9mm parabeullum than were killed with a .45.

Yeah...I know...that just means the criminal underclass doesn't buy .45s. They use what they've got. True enough...but interestingly to me is the statistics on the police officers who were wearing body armor at the time they were killed. 24 police officers were wearing body armor when killed by a .45. Coincidentally, 24 police officers were wearing body armor when killed by .380.

An equal lethality rate....and of course both .380 and .45 are blown out of the water by 9mm Parabellum. 4 times as much. (Most interestingly were the 2 cases of police officers killed with their own weapons....TWENTY-TWO CALIBERS!!! I'm assuming back up weapons.)

One of the other links I posted was about a police department that was having problems with .40 caliber ammunition penetrating through winter clothing?! Pistols rounds are weak. That's the truth of it.

Comparing the lethality rates of a .45ACP versus something like a .308 rifle might show a clear advantage for the .308.

Comparing .45 to 9mm is like comparing apples...with apples. Neither one of them is significantly larger than the other or moving significantly faster to make wounds that are obviously more incapacitating than the other. It's 100 grains difference in weight. It's a couple of hundred feet per second difference in speed. The size of the holes are either .35 or .45.(and more fuzzy than that with hollowpoint ammo.) Measure that on a ruler...it's not that different.

Pistols are just not that qualitatively different in lethality. Above a certain point...let's say .380 size and speed...you only see incremental differences in stopping power. Until you hit the rifle cartridges...THEN you see a big swoop upward in lethality.

So I don't think it can be argued that the .45 is inherently more lethal than a .380. And that's before you argue anything else about carrying a heavy gun, or round capacity. Just the bullets themselves aren't THAT different when it comes to what they do to people.