why the 380 is PLENTY for SD

[Onslaught]

the 3 rounds I can put center mass in about 1 second, should at the very least make him take notice.....now I have 5 rounds left, and when they hit him in the face, Im sure the threat will stop.

Have you ever BEEN IN A FIGHT? The odds of you even having a full second to pull the trigger 3 times on a 300# attacker is slim and NONE!

Even a .45 isn't always "enough", but then it's not really a matter of .380 being "enough" or not, it's this misconception you appear to have that a bad guy is going to STAND there and talk trash while you shoot him 3, 5, or 7 times with ANYTHING.

If you're having a good day, maybe you will see him coming so you can get your HAND on your pistol. IF you're lucky, you might even get your pistol fully drawn before you are within physical contact range. REAL lucky would constitute you being albe to POINT the muzzle in the general direction of the dude before he gets his hands on you or your pistol.... But now if you actually get the opportunity to aim AT ALL so as to get that presumed COM hit of yours, you better run out and play MegaMillions right away because lady luck is moaning your name brother!

Why do you suppose police officers 1) practice weapon retention and 2) get shot with their own guns so frequently?

Quite frankly, if you DO get to shoot a "bad guy" 7 times or more, especially with aimed shots, then you may have a VERY hard time claiming self defense in the first place since you had all that time to kill.

But to actually comment on the caliber itself... I'd rather have the most I could have in an effort to make ONE SHOT COUNT rather than count on multiple shots. Since 9mm pistols have NO MORE RECOIL than a .380, and since modern 9mm pistols are available that are the SAME SIZE as all but one or two .380's currently available, then you're stepping down a caliber and gaining absolutely nothing from it.

If you like the Bersa, that's great. If you want to carry it, that's great too. I've carried a .32 in my pocket, and carry a .38 snubby regularly which has no more power than a .380. But do re-think your victory scenario because it's not very realistic.

 

[Borachon]

Oops...misunderstood and posted.

Deleted.

 

[Borachon]

f you're having a good day, maybe you will see him coming so you can get your HAND on your pistol. IF you're lucky, you might even get your pistol fully drawn before you are within physical contact range.

I've got another scenario for you. You see a guy beating up on his girlfriend and you interfere. He's drunk and doesn't stop when you tell him to freeze. He shoots you. You shoot him.

How's that for a scenario?

then you may have a VERY hard time claiming self defense in the first place since you had all that time to kill.

Actually my attorney told me that shooting more than 5 times was a good thing. Showed you were afraid for your life. What you don't want is one neat precise hole right between the perp's eyes. Then it looks like you murdered the guy. So shoot them in the thigh, foot, buttocks, hand, groin, ear and any other body part showing AFTER you shoot him between the eyes. Looks like more of a struggle that way.

Since 9mm pistols have NO MORE RECOIL than a .380, and since modern 9mm pistols are available that are the SAME SIZE as all but one or two .380's currently available, then you're stepping down a caliber and gaining absolutely nothing from it.

Actually, I stepped down TWO calibers...maybe even three. I went from carrying a 1911 .45 to carrying a Makarov 9x18mm. Which most people agree is only slightly more powerful than a .380. In return for stepping down though I got a pistol that has never misfired, never jammed, and been more accurate than I could ever ask a pistol to be. It's concealable, carries more shells than a 1911, and only has 26 parts that can screw up.

My .45 was very finicky about the ammo I fed it. It jammed a lot. It was heavy. It was bulky. When I wore the thing on a hip holster, it looked like I was Quasimodo with a hip hump on my upper posterior. After I sold it I bought two Makarovs, a boat load of ammunition, a lot of gear for them, extra mags, a couple of cheap rifles and a new Serenity T-Shirt.
Shiny.

 

[Borachon]

I cannot recall a single video game I've played where I could use a .380, and I've played plenty with 9mm and .45s.
Therefore, .380 is obviously not enough for SD.

So I can CLEARLY not pick the wine in front of YOU!
Where was I?




sorry...this reference may be too obscure for everyone.

 

[Zonamo]

Why the .380?-American Rifleman Article

.380 Advocacy-from Calibers

North American Arms: Guardian 380 ACP Velocity Tests

Bersa Chapterhouse-380 Cartridge Performance

Firearms Tactical Institute .380 ACP Ammunition Performance Data

Stephen Ricciardelli Terminal Ballistic Comparison IN Water Media-.380 ACP

 

[Zonamo]

So I can CLEARLY not pick the wine in front of YOU!

But,you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put even a marginal caliber like the .380 as far from yourself as possible, so I can CLEARLY not choose the wine in front of me.

View attachment 259046

 

[LightningJoe]

380 will work 95% of the time. Blanks will work 93% of the time. 45 works 96.5% of the time. 12 Gauge 000 works 99% of the time.

 

[Borachon]

Hey...cool links Zonamo.


(Hmmm. Bride fan.....Ah...a fellow traveller.)

Alright.


" Ha ha, you fool!! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is: never get involved in a land war in Asia; and only slightly less well known is this: Never carry a bulky hand cannon, when death is on the line!"

 

[Borachon]

We sort of need to get back on topic if the thread is to continue.

Just a momentary bit of frolic Captain...won't happen again. Even though I had the PERFECT next line ready.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello and thanks. I more closely read the posts after I'd posted and decided that since they were at least tangentially related, I'd withdraw my posts.

Ya'll have good Thanksgivings.

Best.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm coming into this discussion late, so excuse me, but...

Magyor wrote:

I can with my gun drawn, on sight, first shot being double action, following 2 shots being single action, fire 3 times and hit within about 4 inches a target at 21 feet in about 1 second.

With gun drawn? That's fine, but perhaps an unrealistic standard or measure.

If you're standing there, poised, waiting for a buzzer to go off, and don't have to worry about concealing garments getting in the way, and don't have to draw the gun, etc., 1 second isn't all that hard -- but, I'd argue it doesn't really tell you much.

If it takes 1.5 second to cover about 15 feet, you've got to be aware of the threat LONG before the bad guy gets that close... Unless you're walking around with gun in hand. And if you're standing still, you're a better target than the bad guy...

In fact, you should NOT be there, "standing and delivering" -- you should be moving too, away from the threat, and not in a straight line. One thing I learned from IDPA matches is that when you start moving, accuracy can go to hell, quickly.

 

[Borachon]

In fact, you should NOT be there, "standing and delivering" -- you should be moving too, away from the threat, and not in a straight line.

True. And if you are aware enough to do this...do it.

What sucks is that Life will often hit you with a "Deer in the Headlights" moment when you see something violent, unusual, or unfamiliar. After all, it's not something you see every day! By the time you get through saying to yourself, "Did I just SEE that? Did that guy just---nah, it couldn't have been..." then you find yourself right in the middle of the action, not standing outside of it.

I've often thought that realistic IDPA matches should have the Instructor come up behind you unexpectedly and briskly slap you on the back of the head...to simulate those moments when thoughts fall out of your mind.

I'm only halfway kidding about them doing this.

 

[Zonamo]

Even though I had the PERFECT next line ready.

On topic moral of the story:

It is not possible to build up an immunity to even 90-102gr of lead poisoning.

 

[Borachon]

Or...how about this:

Inigo: I'm going to shoot him with the .380.

Vizzini: YOU KNOW WHAT A HURRY WE'RE IN!

Inigo: Is is the only way I can be satisfied. If I use the .45, it's over too
quickly.



(I even had a picture ready to go along with it.)

 

[JohnKSa]

If you knew you were going to be in a gunfight, and you are limited to choosing a pistol chambered in .380 or 9mm or .40 or .45, what would choose?

If I had experience with one of the pistols, I'd pick that one.

If I had experience with several of them, I'd pick the one I had the most experience with.

If I didn't have experience with any of them, I'd pick the one with a manual of arms most like a pistol I was very familiar with, and that pointed well for me.

If none of them were at all familiar to me in any way, I'd pick the one that pointed best for me, and felt the best in my hand.

If they all pointed and felt identical in my hand, I'd pick the one with the highest capacity.

Anyone who believes they will win or lose a gunfight because they picked .40 instead of .380 (or vice versa) doesn't know anything about gunfights.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've often thought that realistic IDPA matches should have the Instructor come up behind you unexpectedly and briskly slap you on the back of the head...to simulate those moments when thoughts fall out of your mind.

Agreed ! I act as match director at some of our club's matches, and design (or scrounge around and find) most of our courses of fire. Gives me an idea. Maybe a rubber chicken?

We sometimes joke (I think its a joke) that we should practice real-life situations -- you know, like crapping in our pants, screaming, and shooting over our shoulders as we run away...

 

[Borachon]

No, I really did read through the articles you posted Zonamo. I was surprised to hear how blastedly common the .380 was as a firearm. I think one of the articles said it sold more than 9mm, .45, and .40 COMBINED...or did I read that wrong?

If so, having a .380...in a SHTF situation....isn't a bad idea because you might be able to...procure (barter...or other means ) a supply a .380 when other rounds aren't available. Just another bit o' knowledge to keep in mind.

 

[Zonamo]

Is is the only way I can be satisfied. If I use the .45, it's over too quickly.

Well I don't want to get this thread in trouble by veering too off-topic, but there is some reality in the joke.

I own both a .45 and a Colt Mustang.

Given a choice I would always prefer to have the .45. Heck, I would prefer to have a rig like the ones I posted above.

But most of the time I carry the Mustang, and feel a lot better with the Mustang in my pocket than I ever do with an empty pocket.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Could it be that .380 is a widely-used round in Europe, while .45s are rare, and .40 a primarily U.S. round? Bersa probably does the bulk of its sales "over there...

 

[Borachon]

Maybe a rubber chicken?

*Rolling on the floor right now laughing*

That's not bad. Just anything to throw off the concentration for a moment. Like maybe when they turn a corner and...instead of a cardboard bad guy...they find a rubber chicken. Not bad.

Hey...get a cardboard cutout of Darth Vader and have him standing there instead...or Ben Kenobi with upraised lightsaber. Ole Ben constitutes a threat at that moment...but is anyone going to have the wherewithal thought process to shoot Ole Ben? Probably not on the first run through.

I don't know if you can ever prepare for the unexpected, but maybe getting the muscles use to working in a "brain freeze" moment might save someone's life someday. You never know....

I'm still laughing.

 

[Zonamo]

A safe and happy Thanksgiving to all, whether you carry a .380 Turkey gun or something larger.

 

[horge]

Could it be that .380 is a widely-used round in Europe, while .45s are rare, and .40 a primarily U.S. round? Bersa probably does the bulk of its sales "over there...

You're not far off the mark, sir.
.380 ACP is the ceiling for civilian handguns in much of Europe and South America.
.45 ACP is king in countries like the United States and the Philippines.

 

[Borachon]

I own both a .45 and a Colt Mustang.

I've owned a .45 1911..in fact I owned several of them at one point. They're all gone now. Sold off.

Several reasons why they are gone...some I've already mentioned. Another reason I got rid of them was price. That was a $450 gun I was hauling around!!!

I'd leave that thing in my car and go inside a movie for 2 hours. And I'd sit in the movie theatre and worry about my gun out in the car! Someone breaks in and steals the change out of my glove box...and oh, by the way, RIPS OFF A $450 gun!!! I was having too much anxiety about having my gun stolen. The thing had a couple of mechanical problems with it when I shot it...and that was it. Once that happened...it was dead to me. When I go to shoot a firearm, I want that joker to WORK. One trigger pull and then me high steppin' away.

Actually I ended up going with the Makarov because of the moderator who just cited us for frivolity a couple of minutes ago. (At least I think it's the same guy...he has the same handle.) He wrote some articles that I read a couple of years ago when I was getting ready to switch calibers. Came across his article on a pistol site and thought it sounded like a good recommendation. Hunted down a Makarov and bought it. One day at the range and the next day I went back and bought a second one. Only drawback is the caliber. I wish it came in 9x19. Other than that...great gun. And inexpensive too. If it gets ripped off...who cares? I got two more to replace it and can buy another within a couple of days for a $150ish. Ammo is cheap and runs somewhere between a .380 and a 9x19mm in power. Although more honestly toward the .380 in power than the 9mm. That's why I try to follow .380 threads. I figure they are the low range of what I can expect from my pistol.

 

[jlh26oo]

You know, after I stirred up a bunch crap, intentionally,

Well, at least he admitted it.

 

[magyvor]

jlh26oo Quote:
Originally Posted by magyvor
You know, after I stirred up a bunch crap, intentionally,


Well, at least he admitted it.

Have a great Thanksgiving all (even those of you that carry Big Bore)