Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

[TINCANBANDIT]

wow.... a lot of information and opinions

The 380 is a man stopper, always has been....maybe not on par with a .357, but it is designed for compact pistols

let us not forget:

Gandhi was killed with a .380
WWI was started by a .380 (the killing of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand & his wife Sophie)

just a few examples....there are many others that were killed with even smaller, less powerful guns.
We were stopping men and killing them with guns far less powerful than the .380 ACP in the past...man has not evolved become more bullet resistant...ergo the .380 is still a potent and deadly cartridge, maybe not the best, but I don't believe that was the question.

 

[jrdolall]

Scroll up sonny, research does show others are better

Way too much to scroll through. I have seen research showing that 380 is better. I have seen research showing where 45 is better. A 380 perfectly placed, read CNS or heart, will probably be just as effective as anything else. Is it more difficult to perfectly place a 380 through bone and tissue? Is it more difficult to control a lighter recoiling gun and therefore make perfect shot placement more likely? Tit for Tat.
There is NEVER going to be a definitive study on this subject because test subjects are limited. For $50 you can get plenty of people to volunteer for a new drug study but a new "bullet effectiveness" study probably wouldn't net a lot of volunteers. Maybe we can get every hospital in the country to allow us to do an in depth analysis of every gunshot victim for the next 10 years. Height, weight, caliber, layers of clothing, psychological state at the time of the shooting, expansion of bullet, etc, etc...
12" of penetration, 20" of penetration, expansion, bullet weight maintained, wound channel, can be debated until eternity and there will be a new "scientific study" that will refute all the findings.
As I said before, I carry a 9mm but I don't feel undergunned with a 380. It is my sincere hope that I never have to test any of my guns on a human subject. I carry because I don't want to put my life in the hands of "hope".

 

[jrdolall]

I thought Martin was killed by a PF9?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Yet, according to the developers of the FBI Protocols, there "is no difference" between premium 9x19, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP in their latest position paper. So......much of this discussion, that makes so much of those protocols, MUST be wrong? Read the report.



As for gaming scenarios, be careful not to forge boldly into fantasy. Shooting into a car while your child is in there, and through glass and sheet-metal? Even Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal would hesitate to do that. Same with Jerry Miculek.

Besides, in such a gaming scenario, the round fired into the sir by the Bad Guy as he entered your car, clearing room around the car, is headed back down now. Game that it hits you in the shoulder as you trigger that carefully aimed shot into your car. It knocks your aim off, and your child collects a brain-shot. Fantasy? Any more than the gaming to put you into that position? I think not. There are going to be times when it's safer, more legal, and smarter to just not shoot. Gaming some super-hero response should really stay in the mind. It has NO place in reality.

Stopping power has been researched by the likes of David Spauling, Massad Ayoob, Dr. Martin Fackler, Tom Givens, and others.

Massad Ayoob and David Spauling did a lot of research in the morgues and police records and found pretty much what I posted. They are both well known retired policemen and instructors.

Same for Dr. Martin Fackler (THE Dr. Martin L. Fackler. Retired colonel in the US Army's Medical Corps. Served as a battlefield surgeon and was the head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Medical Center.)

That does not mean Stopping Power is absolute and can be quantified to the last decimal place.

There are so many factors besides the cartridge makeup involved. Not only such things as shot placement, type and amount of clothes worn, distance, angle of the shot, but also physical and physiological makeup of the one being shot.

Overall they have found bigger bullets TEND to stop better, faster bullets TEND to stop better, bullets like JHPs TEND to stop better, and those shot in vital places TEND to be stopped better.

None are 100 percent but you can put the odds in your favor by picking those that are bigger, faster, better designed, and.. you can control (that is shoot strait and fast with.)

JR,

It's not a fantasy that people in self defense situations have shot into cars or out of cars or through glass or doors or windows. It has happened. It ain't Rambo or fantasy.

This one happened in Dallas. Not sure if he shot through the windshield or door but he did shoot into the car.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Wo...es-Into-Bus-Stop-Dallas-Police-289418881.html

this one shot the car tires out!

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2015/01/07/delta-home-invasion-stopped/21386103/

Here is a man stopping a car thief. He shot into the car to stop him.

http://www.wapt.com/news/central-mi...man-shoots-kills-alleged-car-burglar/20951072

Here is a Marine who shot a car thief who was inside his car.

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/09/theft-suspect-killed-in-maple-valley-shootout/

more on it..

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...k-fatally-shot-by-trucks-owner-225020962.html

And you can google LOTS of shootings, not to mention visit:

http://thearmedcitizen.com/

Yes good citizens can and do shoot INTO cars, and no doubt have shot OUT of the car.

Not to mention shoot at people behind cover.

It ain't rambo sonny. it happens.

Deaf

 

[MCgunner]

Trevon Martin was a young healthy man, stopped and killed by a .380

Don't know about the others, kinda remembered the Archduke being shot with a .32ACP, but I know Treyvon was shot with a 9mm Kel Tec PF9.

 

[Eb1]

I am consistently achieving 1200 fps from my 3.5" Bersa Thunder using the 90 grain XTP. I have zero doubts about my choice of defensive carry. The XTP has proven itself to me in hunting situations, videos by other people, and in personal accuracy tests.
So I don't think the .380 is marginal at all. A 90 grain HP that is known for its penetration and reliable expansion @ 1200 fps is nothing to shake you head about.

Plus the Bersa Thunder model that I have has been 100% reliable. It is very accurate, and points shoots very well. YMMV.

 

[joneb]

Eb1, are these reloads or factory? If reloads what powder are you using?

 

[Eb1]

internet purchased ammo. i am not loading them to that velocity.

I think the introduction to polymer pistols in .380 has really hindered the .380 from what is really should be. There isn't a major manufacturer that loads over 1000 fps in fear that the plastic mouse guns will not handle the pressures. So you really aren't getting the "bang / buck" you should be when buying the .380 from box stores from the big 3 in ammo manufacturing.

 

[MCgunner]

I've seen the wild velocities Buffalo Bore claims for it's .380 "+P". Well, I won't feed MY .380 that stuff. It's just too wild. I always said, if you really want a .357, don't try to make one out of a .38. Same goes for .380 and 9mm IMHO. The stuff exceeds 9x18. I have a little Radom in 9x18, too, but 9x19 has more pop in my KelTec.

 

[joneb]

There isn't a major manufacturer that loads over 1000 fps in fear that the plastic mouse guns will not handle the pressures.

I find that 9x18 Mak is the same way, some of the factory ammo is down loaded to be safe in all pistols chambered for that cartridge. I reload for a Makarov PM and I am able to exceed factory offerings with no adverse effects.
When I can some suitable powder for a Bersa 83a I will see where that goes.

 

[jimbo555]

I think a modern locked breech 380 pistol with a polymer frame can handle higher pressures than old blowback design pistols.

 

[joneb]

I think a modern locked breech 380 pistol with a polymer frame can handle higher pressures than old blowback design pistols.

The locked breech will allow slower powders to burn more efficiently thus producing better performance. This does not mean the locked breech semi- auto is any more capable of handling higher pressure loads.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Folks,

To paraphrase Col. Jeff Cooper (with a bit of creative writing),

To overload a .380 is like overcompressing an air rifle. Even if you succeed it still is not even a standard velocity 9mm.

Deaf

 

[pwillie]

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought Trayvon Martin was killed with a 9mm Keltec..???

 

[Eb1]

@joneb

I meant 'can't' not 'can'. I don't know if that makes any difference in your reply, but I wanted to clarify this. Thanks.

 

[jimbo555]

I disagree joneb. You don't see any 10mm blowback pistols for a reason.

 

[Sav .250]

Practice makes perfect............ At a given range it will get the job done. Not all (ladies included) can handle a cannon effectively. hand size, very important!

That`s the whole idea............handle and hit the target ....

 

[X-Rap]

Few will disagree in it getting the job done but saying it's not marginal in comparison to the 9mm and larger rounds that are commonly carried is just disingenuous at best.
I carry a 380 much of the time because I can keep it in my front pocket and I'm often in non permissive environments. Would I carry a 380 that was the same size as my G26 or larger? No way, I wouldn't give up that edge because the 380 is marginal!
Saying a bigger, heavier 380 will handle hotter rounds makes that point and it's still not the equal to the 9mm.

 

[C0untZer0]

Don't know about the others, kinda remembered the Archduke being shot with a .32ACP, but I know Treyvon was shot with a 9mm Kel Tec PF9.

The gun used by Gavrilo Princip to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand was a FN-Browning M1910 chambered in .380 ACP. and is currently on display in the Vienna Museum of Military History.


http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/97683056689/the-gun-that-killed-archduke-franz-ferdinand-fn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...65206/Found-the-gun-that-shook-the-world.html

 

[Hunter2011]

Am I wrong when I say the difference in power between the 9mm and the 380 is about the power of a .22 Short Standard Velocity? That ain't much...
That said, I carry a 9mm.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Am I wrong when I say the difference in power between the 9mm and the 380 is about the power of a .22 Short Standard Velocity? That ain't much...
That said, I carry a 9mm.

Well not exactly. The amount of momentum, energy, expansion, penetration, and shock no doubt all combined is more than a .22 short.

But even then, 70 ft/lb of added damage is not to be sneezed at.

The damage is cumulative.

Deaf

 

[Gary A]

Comparing equivalent sized pistols, roughly a PPK vs an LC9, one could reasonably expect the following:

PPK - a 90 grain JHP @ 1000 fps for approx 200 fpe
LC9 - a 115 grain JHP @ 1050 fps for approx 280 fpe - a 40% increase +/-
Or
PPK - 90 grains @ 1000 fps for 90,000 momentum
LC9 - 115 grains @ 1050 fps for 120,750 momentum - a 34% increase
Or
PPK - average of 11 inches of penetration with expansion
LC9 - average of, say, 13 inches of penetration with expansion - 18% + increase
(I'm not as sure of this average number but believe it reasonable.)

So, would the hypothetical 9mm from an LC9 be 40%, 34%, or 18% "better" than the hypothetical .380 from a PPK?

I suspect it would be closer to 18% better rather than the larger numbers.

Does an 8 inch blade struck home with force do twice the damage of a six inch blade slipped in more slowly?

Nothing would seem to indicate anywhere near twice as effective.

The above is a WAG with no scientific merit whatsoever submitted for the fun of it so flame at will.

 

[C0untZer0]

The Hornady 9mm Luger 100 gr FTX® Critical Defense® Lite is an interesting cartridge to look at.

Out of a 4" barrel the 100 gr bullet has a velocity of 1125 fps and 281 ft-lbs of energy.

It penetrates 10" of gel through heavy clothing - about what the average 380 round does.

Precision One's loading of the Hornady 90 gr .380 ACP XTP has a muzzle velocity of around 800 fps / 128 ft-lbs of energy out of a 3" barrel and penetrates to around 13.5" through 4 layers of heavy denim out of a 3" barrel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50

 

[snooperman]

Thanks COuntZero for the informative account of the assassination of 1914 by Gavrilo Princip. Good stuff. Snoop

 

[joneb]

I disagree joneb. You don't see any 10mm blowback pistols for a reason.

A 10 mm blow back action would need at least a 40oz slide and about a 35 LB recoil spring, my comment was directed at the chamber and not the action.