Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

Could it be that a gun in the pocket is worth more than two on the hip?
Not to beat a dead horse here but despite all the global warming it's damn cold when I walk the dog at night, getting to the gun on my hip takes more time than pulling one from my pocket.
It could be a mouse gun could give me time to get to my real gun?

Could it be that a gun in the pocket is worth more than two on the hip?

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I wasn't aware of the rule that I could only have a 380 in my pocket and I couldn't have my LC9s or my CW45 in my pocket

snooperman said:

The FBI has fully admitted that their officers only hit there targets, the bad guys , 25% of the time. Which means that out of 100 shots fired only 25 actually hit the bad guy anywhere. Now they are leaving the 40 cal and going back to the 9mm because it was not the 9mm in the '86' shootout that was the problem but their training , and 9mm ammo is just as effective as the 40. Now we are supposed take what the FBI recommends as Gospel"? Read the March 10th issue of the shotgun news. With that kind of performance they would probably do just fine with the 380.

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The move back to 9mm is because they are hiring women and effeminate men who can't qualify with 40 caliber weapons[1]. 40 caliber has a street record of officer involved shootings that eclipses the performance of 9mm[2].

source of my claims: 1: the FBI hires lots of women and pencil pushers who aren't actually field agents but they still need to qualify. 2: 40 caliber is better because I said so

Except where the 9mm round used is the Federal 9BPLE. When the 9BPLE is used, all bets are off, because that round strikes like the hand of God himself. I wish there was a 40 S&W equivalent to the 9BPLE.


Maybe one day I can take a 9BPLE, trim and crunch it down to 380ACP size, and make a man out of that cartridge. Yeah..

I just want to add something to this thread.

Not really. There isn't a lot to add that hasn't already been discussed. Where is that picture of the dead horse?

How will one .355 inch bullet 'clear away' the barrier?

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You make sure to get your 2nd round through the same hole. Shot placement is key.

Well, I ain't very smart and I'm a fan of several .380 pistols and believe the .380 is enough for most of my needs, but the question is whether it is marginal. Perhaps it should be stated like this: are you willing to drop below .380 for your defense. If not, then by definition .380 is marginal because it is at the margin of what you consider adequate. If you are perfectly willing to drop down to .32 acp or perhaps .25acp, then you likely won't consider .380 marginal. If .380 is already below what you are willing to consider, then it is not marginal, but unacceptable.

Many arguments posed here are well-stated and interesting but I say again: to call a .380 marginal is not an insult. It is merely a descriptive term describing its place on the self defense spectrum according to some thoughtful but ultimately somewhat arbitrary guidelines. It you would not care to go below .380, you will consider it marginal. If you would, perhaps not.

If you have to use the cartridge in a self-defense situation, the question will resolve itself, at least for that instance.

Good grief! This is post 356!!

It does not matter how good the new 9mm bullets are, the FBI agents can only hit their intended target 25% of the time by their own data. They don't have a cartridge problem, they have a training problem, and they know it.

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I'm sure they do much better shooting at paper targets.

25% is pretty good when targets are shooting back.

I think it would be appropriate to let this one hit 380 posts with the last one being the lock.

I think comparing what I carry as a last option to what LE's carry.
Is comparing apples to oranges.
Completely different scenarios. LE's are going to a fight and trying to win it from stand off distance. ( for a pistol) Remember their rule 25 feet is the closest a threat will get before they start blasting.

If I am using mine. ALL of my other SD skills have failed. We are now way too close maybe 3 to 6 feet and I am trying to get away. Because I am not going too a fight. Just picking up groceries.

Other scenarios are more unlikely.

If its at my house where I may have the stand off distance.
I have 12 GA with a 357 mag back up. In that case I am going too the fight.

Incidentally though, After reading this thread and watching some of those .380 videos. I am going to Stagger some good FMJ loads in my carry mags for the .380.

As for the what if a guys is trying to run you down and you have to shoot him through the window.
What??? Ok I am not John Wyane... If I have time to see it coming, Pull my piece, Take Aim, and shoot.
I have time to move, take cover, and make them come to me. Or just as likely to hear report of a funny looking white guy running like heck.

"25 % s pretty good when people are shooting back at you." Really? The reason they are poor shots in the police and FBI is because they do not have the money to train them at a higher level of performance.

I've followed the Dallas PD for many years and I can say except for the few times they dropped the ball and fired 100 rounds at one attacker their hit rate is WAY above 25 percent. I'd say more like 60 pct or higher.

Trouble is when some cops freak and fire lots of ammo it skews the results.

Deaf

kokapelli said:

Yes and then there is the Peter Soulis incident where he hit a perp 22 times in the upper torso with his 40 cal Glock and 17 of the hits were center mass and the perp was still able to get into his car and dive away.

So much for larger caliber causing quick incapacitation.

https://gunningtx.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/soulis-incident/

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Something tells me that was 165 grain SXT ammo or even lighter, thereby mushrooming out too quickly.

Any speculation if the ammo was FMJ? I say he would be dead on the spot.

kokapelli said:

That would also be pure speculation.

For example I offer the Baby Face Nelson - FBI shootout where Nelson took nine 45 caliber rounds to his upper torso from the FBI agents Thompson Submachine gun and two shotgun blasts to his legs from the second FBI agent and Nelson's own Thimpson jammed so he leaned back into his car and was handed a rifle which he then walked back toward the agents and used the rifle to kill the two agents. So much for quick incapacitation!

Nelson then drove back to his girlfriend's house where he did expired.

I'm sure the nine rounds that hit Nelson were FMJ and must have had excellent penetration since the Thompson Sub machine gun has a 10-1/2" barrel.

Bigger is not always better.

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Actually the .45 in such as the Thompson does not have 'excellent' penitration.

Lt. Col. John George in his book talked about that.

As for Nelson, look at his death autopsy photo and you will see, well I sure don't see any chest hits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson

Above even has a video clip showing his body being examined!

http://www.lacndb.com/php/Info.php?name=George - Babyface - Nelson

So it turns out....

"Nelson had been shot a total of nine times; Cowley's single bullet had struck his abdomen and eight of Hollis's shotgun pellets had hit his legs."

Yea, abdomen and shot in the legs..... some super shooting, right?

Deaf

kokapelli said:

What! The link you supplied says Nelson was shot 17 times and at least one of the rounds was through and through.

I can't believe that a 45cal/FMJ from a 10-1/2" barrel would not have good penetration.
Maybe their accuracy would have been better if they were using a 380. Don't get excited, just kidding.

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Which link?

I posted what was written on the website. Look at the photos.. no bullet wounds above the HIPS.

In 'Shots Fired in Anger" John George wrote the .45 Thompson's slugs bounced off trees.

The .45 was also a very poor car penetrator. That was one reason they went to the .38 Super (and yes the Thompson was made in that to.)

Deaf

Something tells me that was 165 grain SXT ammo or even lighter, thereby mushrooming out too quickly.

Any speculation if the ammo was FMJ? I say he would be dead on the spot.

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He did die in 4 minutes, I'd speculate the only thing FMJ would do is lengthen this time.

They are deadly...... James Bond makes 50 yard, 1 shot, immediate incapacitation shots all the time


To me, everyone is too wrapped up in getting micro pistols with small calibers

IMHO..... 9mm is the minimum for carry

Not everyone can shoot the pocket nines easily and the 380 fills their need. A lot of elderly and women have problems with the small nines.

There are many reasons for carrying a smaller gun and those have been stated clearly, the problem I see is those who claim the 380 is no different than those larger more powerful calibers.
It's just as easy to make the claim that the 380 is no different than the 32 or 25 which most would say would be a false claim but could be argued none the less.
So what do you say 380 proponents? I say your marginal 380 is barely superior to the inferior 32.

Your first post was an incite to a caliber war, that and a cry for a validation of your opinion.
You could substitute any of the inferior calibers for your marginal one in your original OP and made the same arguments you've been making.

380's rock! compared to the 22 I carry.

I would like to see more caliber wars. I might start one between the 9mm and the 40 caliber.