Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

[kokapelli]

A 380 will not incapacitate an assailant. You use a 380 to distract an assailant until you can reach your 308, which will simply section him lengthwise.

And you know that because_____

Still not a single actual example to backup the naysayers.

 

[kokapelli]

What I find interesting is that there are all kinds of instantses of 9mm, 40 cal and 45 cal failures to immedietly incapacitate, but I can't find a single instance of 380 failing to stop or dissuade an aggressor.

I'm not saying 380 is better than the other calibers, just saying that all the people that say 380 can't get the job done in a selfdefense siduation are arguing from personal opinion only with no evidence to back up their opinions.

Prove me wrong.

 

[X-Rap]

I think the reason for few if any failures with the 380 compared to 9, 40, and 45 is obvious, people always gun up when they're headed for a gunfight so there are literally no real cases in which the 380 was used.

 

[snooperman]

The FBI has fully admitted that their officers only hit there targets, the bad guys , 25% of the time. Which means that out of 100 shots fired only 25 actually hit the bad guy anywhere. Now they are leaving the 40 cal and going back to the 9mm because it was not the 9mm in the '86' shootout that was the problem but their training , and 9mm ammo is just as effective as the 40. Now we are supposed take what the FBI recommends as Gospel"? Read the March 10th issue of the shotgun news. With that kind of performance they would probably do just fine with the 380.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If he won't roll down his window it would be more difficult to give him my wallet than a .380 slug.

When a bad guy(s) stops to rob you at the side of the road and exits his car to approach you on foot then you may have to shoot through a raised trunk lid, glass hatchback, raised engine hood, through the metal & glass structures of an open car door, or through windshield glass as you both maneuver on foot against each other. (Not to mention the difficulty in quickly drawing that .380 from your pocket while you're scooting & ducking from the bad guy.)

(A similar situation can happen in a Walmart parking lot.)

Anywhere you carry in or around cars you may have a situation where you have to shoot through automotive structures to hit a bad guy.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Now they are leaving the 40 cal and going back to the 9mm because it was not the 9mm in the '86' shootout that was the problem but their training , and 9mm ammo is just as effective as the 40.

Agent Jerry Dove fired the Winchester 9mm 115gr Silvertip JHP bullet that stopped an inch from reaching Michael Platt's heart. Dove made the hit early in the gunfight. Had the bullet penetrated a few more inches and perforated Platt's heart then he would not have gotten off the ground after crawling out the window of the stolen Monte Carlo and the fight would have been over. (More about the 1986 Miami Shootout is available here - http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm )

Modern 9mm JHP bullets perform substantially better than 9mm JHP bullets of 1986, to the point where the differences in terminal performance and wound trauma produced between 9mm and 40 S&W is negligible. Given this modern reality, FBI has made the decision to arm its agents with a cartridge that has a milder recoil in the same size pistol, which in turn increases shooting performance.

 

[snooperman]

It does not matter how good the new 9mm bullets are, the FBI agents can only hit their intended target 25% of the time by their own data. They don't have a cartridge problem, they have a training problem, and they know it.

 

[kokapelli]

When a bad guy(s) stops to rob you at the side of the road and exits his car to approach you on foot then you may have to shoot through a raised trunk lid, glass hatchback, raised engine hood, through the metal & glass structures of an open car door, or through windshield glass as you both maneuver on foot against each other. (Not to mention the difficulty in quickly drawing that .380 from your pocket while you're scooting & ducking from the bad guy.)

(A similar situation can happen in a Walmart parking lot.)

Anywhere you carry in or around cars you may have a situation where you have to shoot through automotive structures to hit a bad guy.

You obviously have not read all the posts in this thread because I have posted videos of 380 being shot through both windshield and car doors.

 

[jimbo555]

Just recently maybe yesterday a disabled veteran went to the aid of a woman being attacked by 2 men in martin county florida. He shot both men once each in the chest with a 380 pistol. They are both in critical condition in the hospital. 380 worked fine this time!

 

[X-Rap]

Is the 223 a marginal big game caliber ?

 

[kokapelli]

Just recently maybe yesterday a disabled veteran went to the aid of a woman being attacked by 2 men in martin county florida. He shot both men once each in the chest with a 380 pistol. They are both in critical condition in the hospital. 380 worked fine this time!

Yes and then there is the Peter Soulis incident where he hit a perp 22 times in the upper torso with his 40 cal Glock and 17 of the hits were center mass and the perp was still able to get into his car and dive away.

So much for larger caliber causing quick incapacitation.

https://gunningtx.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/soulis-incident/

 

[lobo9er]

Wow....

 

[kokapelli]

When a bad guy(s) stops to rob you at the side of the road and exits his car to approach you on foot then you may have to shoot through a raised trunk lid, glass hatchback, raised engine hood, through the metal & glass structures of an open car door, or through windshield glass as you both maneuver on foot against each other. (Not to mention the difficulty in quickly drawing that .380 from your pocket while you're scooting & ducking from the bad guy.)

(A similar situation can happen in a Walmart parking lot.)

Anywhere you carry in or around cars you may have a situation where you have to shoot through automotive structures to hit a bad guy.

Sure and he might even have an RPG along with his full auto AK.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Is the 223 a marginal big game caliber ?

Yes.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

Yes and then there is the Peter Soulis incident where he hit a perp 22 times in the upper torso with his 40 cal Glock and 17 of the hits were center mass and the perp was still able to get into his car and dive away.

So much for larger caliber causing quick incapacitation.

https://gunningtx.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/soulis-incident/

Using larger diameter bullets or faster ones or ones with better construction is no guarantee to one shot stops. BUT they do tend to produce more one shot stops.

Picking a few failures does not invalidate this.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It does not matter how good the new 9mm bullets are, the FBI agents can only hit their intended target 25% of the time by their own data.

IIRC, 25% is consistent with most police shootings.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You obviously have not read all the posts in this thread…

Suggest you see post #309.

 

[kokapelli]

Suggest you see post #309.

Yeah I guess those tests are just a mirage.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Yeah I guess those tests are just a mirage.

Unless I missed it, did you post a link to tests showing terminal performance in properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin after .380 bullets perforate automotive windshield glass? Did the bullets consistently penetrate at least 12" into the gelatin?

What I saw was a melon.

 

[Eb1]

True story.

Husband goes to firing range. Man (intruder) is robing the house/back yard. Wife sees the man calls 911. 911 asks if he is still there. Wife doesn't see the man, and the 911 dispatch asks her to verify what was stolen (weird), but also asks if she is armed. Wife goes outside thinking the man is gone.
3 year old child is in the house with the screen door shut, but open so Wife can hear her. Man is hiding with a gas can and a lighter. Wife sees man says Stop I am on the phone with the police and they are on their way. Man (intruder) run towards the house door where the child is yelling mommy. At that point the man has made a direct move towards her child, and intruded into the home by law, and not towards the open field where he could have been thought to have been evacuating, and therefore no longer a threat.
Wife fires 1 shot from a 9mm with an 124 grain HST. Man (intruder) falls to the ground, and continues to beg for the Wife to save him. Wife unloads the gun, and waits for the police to come after telling 911 that an ambulance is now needed as well. The Wife takes bath towels and sticks them inside the man to keep him from bleeding out. The intruder lives. The Wife is not charged, and the daughter was not taken hostage by a man with a can of gas and a lighter.

Now why didn't the 9mm kill him on the spot? The HST is renouned for its performance. What did the 9mm do that the .380 ACP would not have done? Is the 9mm now marginal because it did not kill the intruder? That wasn't the point of the shooting. It was to stop the progression of the intruder into the home where her young child was located. If that had happened then something really horrible could have happened. Yes, this is a true story. It was my Wife.

So with that said, and my experience with handguns. I do not think the .380 ACP withing 12 yards is marginal from a 3.5" barrel or longer with ammunition that makes it to 1200fps. The way this thread has gone off topic we should be asking is the 9mm marginal after this story, but everyone seems to think it isn't. Moral of the story is to stop the threat. Either of the rounds 9mm or .380 ACP would have done the same in this event. I don't think the intruder would have notice if it was a 90 grain XTP .355 bullet @ 1000 fps or a 124 grain 356 @ 1100 fps.

There is your real world answer. It doesn't contain any scientific hoopla about denim or jello. Just a scared woman for her child's safety faced with a split second decision to protect herself, her home, and her daughter.
Take it or leave it.
All this mess being posted is a bunch of crap if you ask me. Let's get some real world stories on here. I posted mine, and I never talk about it. Your turn, people. Who have you shot to defend yourself? Who has your spouse shot to save themselves and their daughter?

Unless you got some factual situations in the real world about your carry decision, you are all keyboard commandos.

 

[kokapelli]

Unless I missed it, did you post a link to tests showing terminal performance in properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin after .380 bullets perforate automotive windshield glass? Did the bullets consistently penetrate at least 12" into the gelatin?

What I saw was a melon.

Statistical theory is interesting, but does not always work in real life siduations, for example the "Soulis" incident where 22 hits to the torso with 17 in center mass with 40 cal XTP rounds.

Surely the 40 cal XTP round easily exceeds every statistic you think is necessary for satisfactorly ending a bad siduation and still it failed miserably in this instance regardless of it's statistical superiority.

As far as I'm concerned real world examples count far more than numbers.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Surely the 40 cal XTP round easily exceeds every statistic you think is necessary for satisfactorly ending a bad siduation and still it failed miserably in this instance regardless of it's statistical superiority.

This isn't rocket science.

Failures to stop with handgun bullets are the result of the bullet(s) either not passing through a vital structure or if it does damage vital tissues the damage is insufficient to produce rapid unconscious collapse.

A bullet whose path misses vitals will be as ineffective as a bullet that doesn't penetrate deeply enough to reach vitals.

Placement and penetration are the keys to an effective, fight stopping hit. Both are equally important. A failure of one or the other results a failure to stop.

 

[redbullitt]

To me.... all hangun rounds are marginal manstoppers. Plain and simple. If you don't hit the brain or spine all bets are off. Simply not enough oomph to do what rifles do on soft targets. We have all seen what well hit animals do more often than not. No heart and lungs left? No problem, gonna sprint 30 yards...

Well, maybe a 454 casul or 500 SW is an effective handgun... but there are other umm tradeoffs there.

Out of my p380 I would consider it effective enough for small carry. Other small 380s, well I have not liked many of them due to feel, sights, trigger, etc.

Couple reasons I do like mine:

1. If I am carrying that then it means a larger weapon is not a possibility, so caliber debate is not really part of my consideration.
2. I am very comfortable with the p380 and have put over 1000 rounds through it, so I feel that I can hit what I aim at with it. After all, it has excellent sights and and trigger lol.
3. 9mm short can kill things quite well if you shoot it well. In years past this caliber would not really be considered weak, especially in a pocket gun AND not with good current ammo. I like the critical defense stuff or XTPs.
4. 2 or 3 quick rounds, even 9mm short, give you a good chance of disabling someone/something. For me, quick accurate shot strings are easy with this gun.

Sure there are 9mm options that are similar in size, but I don't have one... and I am comfortable enough with the 380 that I would probably not trade it for a similar 9mm.

ALL that said, if for nothing else it fills a small weapon niche. We all love our smoking hot significant others right? Try getting them to carry a Glock 19 or big old SP101 when their clothes don't necessarily jive with something that size or weight... Good luck, been down that road. No big deal to me to dress like a lumberjack and pack the G21 or 1911, but it's been said Im no runway model, so I don't worry about it. I consider the little 380 a success BECAUSE my girlfriend carries it ALL the time, likes to shoot it, AND is darn good with it. I am happy that she HAS it and it works for her. So, like it or not, those little guns have an important place in the carry rotation.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Out of my p380 I would consider it effective enough for small carry.

What is 'small carry' kemosabe?

And if the average hit rate is 25 percent then how do you expect to hit them 2 or 3 times in a row with a 'small carry' with small grips, small sights, poor trigger?

Deaf

 

[mavracer]

Yes and then there is the Peter Soulis incident where he hit a perp 22 times in the upper torso with his 40 cal Glock and 17 of the hits were center mass and the perp was still able to get into his car and dive away.

succumbs to his wounds and expiring 4 minutes later seems a little different than diving away and besides it takes 17 rounds of 40 to stop this guy and you think some how 6 round of 380 would have????????