10mm vs Bear

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Read some more about your beloved velocity, which by the way, is wonderful for flattening trajectory but unfortunately doesn't really add much to actual killing potential with heavy cast bullets.
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Heavy cast bullet could not hold together at certain velocities...
 
Wow, you read really fast! What was that about folks only hearing what they want to??? :rolleyes:

Have you asked Gary about who's backing him up on his handgun hunts???
 
Elmer Keith vs Roy Weatherby

Bigger Bullets!!!

More velocity!!!

I don't think this debate can be won. Better stop before someone gets their feelings hurt.


Hey KBeer, have you heard of them?
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That is misleading....the "debate" was fast and smaller bullets Vs. bigger and slower..

There is no debate when the bullets have the same size and weight.....all else being equal, faster bullets kill better, they have more energy...period..

This is, for example, the reason why the 458 Lott has been invented as more capable cartridge than a 458 WM...to push the same pill faster....

If this wasn't the case, the 460 Weatherby, 458 WM, 458 Lott, 470 NE would be all useless...just pack your 45-70 in Africa....
 
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Energy doesn't kill. Blood loss and/or CNS damage kills. It is well proven that two holes bleed better than one so an energy true believer would think that energy is wasted on the ground. Nonsense, because energy does not kill. Folks are finally coming to this realization but it will be a while before the mainstream shooting industry realizes that the energy they've touted for so long is not a good measure of killing ability. Or stopping ability for that matter. Go back and actually read the article.

Besides, we're not debating light and fast, at least we weren't until saturno starting up his nonsense. We were debating the viability of shotgun slugs vs. heavy rifle bullets. Both of which are off topic for this thread but here we are.
 
Aw, the old ENERGY excuse.

Energy is just a measurement that maroons use to explain why their 30-378 wby. kills game deader than a 300 mag.
 
It is well proven that two holes bleed better than one
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A very scientific statement..I'm impressed...

Your link about Overkill and Uderkill is a masterpiece of half-truth and disinformation....

Energy doesn't kill. Blood loss and/or CNS damage kills
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Energy = capacity to do work....in this case, disrupt tissue causing blood loss...physics 101

All I hear from you is chatchatchatchat..fly buzz...I give up talking with someone that doesn't have even basic knowledge of physics....I waste my time....it's liek trying to talk to a fencepost...pointless and you should not waste precious server space...I'm out....:banghead::banghead:

It is hard to debate against someone that deny even the evidence..I posted some scientific tests and you do not have the right answers...all i know is that the 30-06 whipped the ass of your 45-70 in a penetration test (both standard jacketed bullets)...fact...period...the rest is useless chit chat...

You and Justin go to Africa and kill dangerous game with a 50 cal muzzleloader firing 1000 gr. slugs at 800 fps....velocity does not count........

Yep, we need the moderators pronto...
 
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Besides, we're not debating light and fast, at least we weren't until saturno starting up his nonsense.
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Ehh no...you started with the laughable claim that shotgun slugs are ineffective against bears....a statement so stupid that is not even funny....you keep pushing imbecilities even after some poeople that bear the scars told you otherwise
 
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No, we're talking about penetration. Penetration, penetration, penetration. But I see that any example I show that negates your preconceived notions will be arbitrarily dismissed or simply ignored because I live in Tennessee.
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No, YOU'RE talking about penetration, penetration, penetration. The rest of us are talking about stopping a bear at close range. A .38 Special will penetrate a bears nose and reach the brain - it's been done. The problem is hitting a bears nose when it's bounding at you at 40mph.

If it was just about penetration, then we'd carry a .50 BMG. However, since you can't rapidly manipulate a .50 BMG rifle and put a round on target, it's a poor choice.

My point was that simply residing within the state of Alaska does not automatically make one an expert on anything, nor does living elsewhere preclude such.
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Yet, I just linked you to 8 recent vids of 50 or more brown bears taken at close range. How do you suppose I get those pix without getting myself killed if I don't know something about the subject? I haven't mentioned your locale - YOU brought up the subject of relative experience and locale, not me.
 
I'll pass on the muzzle loader hunt, too slow to reload. But a Marlin loaded with some heavy WFN hard cast bullets, now were talking.

There are many variables that effect the "killing power" of a projectile. It takes a combination of several to be effective.

To claim one is more important than another is simply wrong.

Velocity is worthless if the bullet fails

Penetration is useless if the bullet fails

Lets talk about momentum.

"An object in motion tends to stay in motion , unless acted on by another force."

Two identical bullets fired at different speeds.

The faster of the two will slow down faster than the other because of increased resistance from air and tissue.

The slower of the two will slow down more slowly than the other because of less resistance.

At some point theoretically they will be traveling at the same velocity.
 
There are many variables that effect the "killing power" of a projectile. It takes a combination of several to be effective.

To claim one is more important than another is simply wrong.

Velocity is worthless if the bullet fails

Penetration is useless if the bullet fails

Lets talk about momentum.

"An object in motion tends to stay in motion , unless acted on by another force."

Two identical bullets fired at different speeds.

The faster of the two will slow down faster than the other because of increased resistance from air and tissue.

The slower of the two will slow down more slowly than the other because of less resistance.

At some point theoretically they will be traveling at the same velocity.
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Now we can start to agree.....

The faster of the two will slow down faster than the other because of increased resistance from air and tissue.
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Same caliber and ballistic coefficient?...these are two other very impostant factor to calculate drag...momentum alone does not explain much....
 
First of all the .45-70's "standard pressure" is actually not really standard, its standard because it's used for antique rifles. If there were more people with marlin guns instead of ar's and scoped .300wsm's then the buffalo bore's and grizzlys and garrets would not be considered "high cost, expensive, high pressure loads" but rather standard loadings.

400 grain bullet @2050 fps is big and slow??? consider too that I have 8 shots in my lever gun with that kind of fire power.. if one doesn't do the job I have 7 more that I can let off in a hurry
 
Ok, we have enough internet 'experts'. Now from those who actually go there...

From the Alaska Department of Fish and Game

http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=info.faqs

"Firearms should never be used as an alternative to common-sense approaches to bear encounters. If you are inexperienced with a firearm in emergency situations, you are more likely to be injured by a gun than a bear. However, a .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs is an appropriate weapon if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."

http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=bears.bearfax

says the same thing.

I also note the standard issue for National Park Service personnel in Alaska grizzly country is 12 gauge with slugs.

Also:

http://safety.eas.ualberta.ca/node/13#Shot

"A 12-gauge pump action shotgun is one of the most versatile weapons for bear protection. The recommended ammunition for a possible bear attack for a 12 gauge shotgun is a 12 gauge slug and 00-buck shot. Too light of ammunition will not be effective against a bear so you must be sure to purchase the correct ammunition."

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bear


"According to the Alaska Science Center, a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs has been the most effective weapon. There have been fewer injuries as a result of only carrying lethal loads in the shotgun, as opposed to deterrent rounds. "


And:

http://www.icefloe.net/hly0901/CombinedDocument.pdf

Minimum Field Firearms Requirements (for bear defense)

A. Firearms and ammunition carried for defensive purposes shall meet the
following minimum standards:

(1) Shotguns shall be 12 gauge or larger, (3-inch magnum is recommended),
ammunition will be 1-ounce minimum foster or brenneke type slugs.

(2) Rifles shall be 30 caliber or larger, ammunition will be 180 grain or larger
factory ammunition designed for big game.

(3) Handguns shall be 44 magnum or larger, ammunition will be 240 grain or
larger factory ammunition designed for big game. Upon Regional Firearms
Manager approval, those employees unable to safely handle a 44 magnum may be granted a waiver to carry a .357 caliber handgun.

So one can say what they would carry, what they think is effective. But those above carry 12 gauge shotguns with slugs VERY often!

Deaf
 
The original post was what to take while bow hunting...In Montana you are allowed to carry a handgun only while bow hunting...Not a rifle or shotgun...As I said earlier bow hunters don't make much noise so a bear encounter would probably be very close...So the high capacity 45 or 10mm is the only legal way to go...I'd rather have 13 rounds than 5 or 6 in a revolver...But for the record the 12 ga is king of energy and hole size combined...There was a Russian hunter that killed 69 Grizzly and they were all killed with a 12 slug...And remember the myth busters show where a 12 slug penetrated clear to the bottom of a swimming pool while all the rifle rounds including a 50 BMG fragmented near the surface...
 
a slug will definately work against a bear... but best bet would be a solid bullet for hard cast lead or from solidd brass or full metal jacket, it should be soft lead because it won't penetrate

Alaska department of fish and game probably is keeping it in simple terms for simple people, but you should not trust what the government tells you to do because they always have an agenda
 
Kodiakbeer. I disagree that a handgun is a bad idea in bear country. Ive lived in Alaska fo 36 years and while I have not had to use my 500 Linebaugh revolver on a bear, I do know that its usually on my hip and not sitting on the bank of the river like my shotgun would be when Im fishing. Bird in the hand pard...

Ive also seen bears totally unafected by so called "Bear Spray". Ive vids of people spraying it on the ground and a bear would promptly roll in it.

I also wouldnt take what those pin-heads with the Alaska Fish & Game have to say on the subject. Most of them would rather see the person get injured rather than the bear. I have numerous examples but this is off topic.
 
...I give up talking with someone that doesn't have even basic knowledge of physics....
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Do you have any knowledge of momentum and how it comes into play here?


Ehh no...you started with the laughable claim that shotgun slugs are ineffective against bears....
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I never said that and I challenge you to quote where I did. I simply stated that 12ga pumps with slugs were oft-recommended because they are plentiful, cheap and most people already have one. NOT because they are the best tool for the job.

Okay Professor Velocity, click on the Linebaugh penetration tests again. It will come up sorted by inches of penetration in wet newsprint. Look at the top ten. Half of those are handgun cartridges, the other half are big bore rifles. What do they all have in common? Where do they differ?
Large caliber, check.
Heavy for caliber bullets and subsequent high SD's, check.
Toughly constructed bullets, check.
High velocity, nope.

How do you account for that? Or Taffin's full pass through on a bison? Or Dustin Linebaugh's full pass-through on a grizzly at 176yds? Or Ross Seyfried's several feet of penetration through a Cape buffalo with his trusty .45? Or his full pass through on a mature cow elk with a 250gr .45 at 900fps? Or myriad accounts of very, very deep penetration with heavy bullets at moderate velocities?

Now compare those cartridges with a shotgun slug. The slug is heavy, no doubts there but one cannot rely on weight alone, without regard for sectional density. The sectional densities are pitiful. Even the best of the Brenneke's is equal to a 250gr .44 Keith bullet.


From the Alaska Department of Fish and Game
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Again, it was obviously not a comprehensive test. The only .44's they tested were standard 240gr jacketed bullets and the only .45-70's they tested were also standard pressure jacketed bullets, i.e. all deer loads. No Brenneke slugs were tested, only el cheapo Fosters and the results were obviously dismal. I really don't know what it proves. I also don't know why someone would choose their bear defense weapon according to what an underfunded government agency chooses. We should be smarter than that.


And we have yet to hear KodiakBeer quantify his bear experience.

...and I'm still waiting for saturno to query Gary Reeder about his platoon of PH's on his handgun hunts. Though there is a very interesting post right there about the .475 and .510 handgun cartridges compared to the legendary .375H&H and their relative effectiveness on game. From someone who has surely been there and done that.

The link:
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=183178;article=186444;title=Gary Reeder Custom Guns
 
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Finally found some penetration tests on the slugs from Dixie. These are far more effective than the popular Brenneke's because they have a much higher sectional density. The 730gr will run .196 or comparable to a 250gr .44, the 870gr has an SD of .233, which is comparable to a 300gr .44. So the penetration numbers listed here from a Linebaugh seminar are about what one should expect, given their sectional densities and toughness. Penetrating 31-36 inches in wet newsprint. Or equivalent to 300gr .44 and .45 sixgun loads. Now compare that to your 1 3/8oz Brenneke with its SD of .161, or equivalent to a 210gr .44 or 230gr .45. Not what I'd wanna shoot a pissed off bear with.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dangerous_Game_Single_Shot.pdf
 
You exhibit such blatant ignorance and call my post laughable??? Apples to oranges. When you're using a lightweight jacketed bullet that depends on expansion to do its job then yes, velocity is a major consideration. However, heavy hardcast bullets don't work that way. Extensive testing has shown that at sixgun velocities you gain very, very little at velocities over 1200fps. As evidenced by how deeply the 430gr .475 at a lowly 1272fps penetrated as compared to the heavy rifles.
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Im trying to get ahold of your theory that velocity has nothing to do with penetration by using an example of 2 well known rounds with long track records that use the same bullet with the only difference is velocity between the 2.

What testing? I'd love to know because what you propose flies in the face of everything that has been proven about heavy bullets and penetration. Not to mention bullet design
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So your basic theory is that a hard lead .72 caliber 438 gr projectile going at around 1600fps penetrates/has the lethality of (according to Sectional Density) of a 110gr 357mag or 135gr 40s&w? This is what you mentioned before as your proof that a 12 gauge slug isnt good for bear. Do you realize how insane of a theory this is?

No, it is just a number. We do not ignore anything like you muzzle energy guys. Bullet construction, diameter and its weight relative to its diameter (sectional density) are all taken into consideration. We just don't put as much stock in velocity, that's for you muzzle energy Kool Aid drinkers. We put all that together and from actual work against flesh over the last century, we KNOW that a toughly constructed bullet, be it hardcast lead or a tough jacketed pill, that is heavy for its diameter (sectional density quantifies this) and drive it to moderate velocity that it will penetrate like there is no tomorrow. Far better than anything light and fast and certainly better than anything with a significantly lower sectional density. Obviously, casting all myths and misconceptions about shotgun slugs aside.
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No, Sectional Density does not take bullet construction into account. All sectional density is Mass X Diameter, so as i said a 3/8 piece of rebar 20 ft long at 3lbs is considered more deady than a 12 gauge slug. Its basically bulls%^t math.
 
You said, and i quote " Slugs are good for deer but not much else earlier in the thread.
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Another nugget of wisdom from our friend in one of his posts in this thread:

12ga slugs are commonly recommended for a couple reasons. They are cheap and plentiful and most people have one. Period. Not because they are the most effective tool for the job.


Shotguns with hardened heavy slugs are among the best tools for the job in close range defense situations.....the entire world knows it except for Craig...

You are wasting your time...the man keep posting a link to a penetration test where they compared hardcast bullets with expandable ones in penetration tests..I tried severl time to tell him but to no avail...it's hopeless...

The entire rifle industry is wrong in selling high velocity (> 2000 fps) big bullets for DG...all you need is Craig handguns and you can shoot elephants all day....
 
Im trying to get ahold of your theory that velocity has nothing to do with penetration by using an example of 2 well known rounds with long track records that use the same bullet with the only difference is velocity between the 2.
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If that's your response then yes, blatant ignorance.


So your basic theory is that a hard lead .72 caliber 438 gr projectile going at around 1600fps penetrates/has the lethality of (according to Sectional Density) of a 110gr 357mag or 135gr 40s&w? This is what you mentioned before as your proof that a 12 gauge slug isnt good for bear. Do you realize how insane of a theory this is?
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No, I'm using their respective sectional densities to lend a little perspective on how pitiful a 1oz slug is for anything larger than deer. Do you realize how insane it is to expect one bullet with a sectional density to behave one way, yet another with the same sectional density to behave another? This ain't rocket science. There is a reason why the best stopping rifle cartridges use bullets with a high sectional density. I don't know why it is so hard to understand that there is nothing magic about slugs. All the same rules apply.

If I wanted to use a 185gr .45 caliber cast bullet against bear, you would think I was insane regardless of velocity, correct? Same for a 200gr .500? What makes the slug different? What magical factor am I overlooking that makes a 1oz 12ga slug penetrate, despite what any other cartridge shooting any other projectile of a similar construction and sectional density? Seriously, tell me what I'm missing!


No, Sectional Density does not take bullet construction into account.
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I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here. It is a given that SD does not take construction into account. It is just a number quantifying the relative relationship between weight and diameter. It doesn't take construction into account but WE do.


You are wasting your time...the man keep posting a link to a penetration test where they compared hardcast bullets with expandable ones in penetration tests..I tried severl time to tell him but to no avail...it's hopeless...
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And you have yet to explain why a .475 at 1200fps penetrates just as well as big bore rifles, not shooting expanding bullets but solids. Forget the small bore, high velocity rounds, just look at the top ten penetrators. If velocity is everything, then explain to me what I asked you to explain above. You know, one of the parts that you conveniently ignored.


Some penitration test of shotgun slugs:
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What exactly does an article on self defense (against humans) have to do with this discussion?


And since we are talking close range, real close range, SD is not gonna matter all that much.
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Since when does range negate the need for a high SD? Do you really have a clue what you're talking about. Are all you guys that blinded by the whole muzzle energy nonsense???


And again, why has saturno not asked Gary Reeder about his platoon, if it is so important???

What about the statements made by Reeder and now Taffin regarding the .375H&H vs. big bore handguns? Nothing???
 
Craig

The only ignorant, arrogant, nonsense spounting individual in this thread is you and only you...and it should be about time for you to get an earful from the moderators.

If you claim that two identical undeformable bullets, the one fired at higher velocity penetrates less, that is simply pure ignorance and idiocy..clear as water.

Have a chat with a THR member called H&Hhunter, which he has been in Africa more times than you have probably wandered the woods of Tennessee, about dangerous woods cartridges and see what happens....tell him about going to Africa with a handgun and wait for his response.

And you have yet to explain why a .475 at 1200fps penetrates just as well as big bore rifles, not shooting expanding bullets but solids. Forget the small bore, high velocity rounds, just look at the top ten penetrators. If velocity is everything, then explain to me what I asked you to explain above. You know, one of the parts that you conveniently ignored.
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If you really think you are better armed against a big Grizzly or, worse, the very big thick skinned dangerous game of Africa, with a 475 handgun firing slugs at 1200 fps rather than a high powered rifle in the 375/458 class you are a suicidal fool and I hope (better say pray) you are not going to find out one day how much so....

What magical factor am I overlooking that makes a 1oz 12ga slug penetrate, despite what any other cartridge shooting any other projectile of a similar construction and sectional density? Seriously, tell me what I'm missing!
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What you are missing....first of all shotgun slugs for 3" shells come up to 1 oz and 5/8....they do not stop at 1 oz.....second a "native" .73 cal, third very sharp tip shoulder and jagged edges...
The fact that you keep arguing that a shotgun slug (different shotgun slugs are very diverse from each other...you do not qualify these differences) is a poor choice against bears contrary to decades of evidence with people that have direct experience even on this forum is simply appalling...a new dimension to the word asinine.

I'm starting to suspect that you are 15 years old....

I'm really done with you and others should ignore you as well....

And again, why has saturno not asked Gary Reeder about his platoon, if it is so important???
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I just did and let's see what happen...
 
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