1911 Unreliable?

[cacoltguy]

They aren't as reliable for the same reason that a 1960's muscle car isn't as reliable and requires more maintenance than most modern designs. Sure it may look cooler, have more soul and a better feel, but damn, we sure have learned a lot about making them better over the decades. I love 1911's and own two, but they are strictly range queens for me. Both are made by reputable companies (Colt and Sig) but neither ran 100% out of the box and required some "tuning" or "breaking in" to run reliably. Two of my friends bought Para 1911's within the last 2 years and if you want a manufacturing disaster try buying one of those. Most equipment malfunctions I see at my local range are usually at the hands of someone shooting a 1911. The unreliability label that 1911's have is usually "written off" as a result of a million different things (ammo, magazines, shooting technique, manufacturer inconsistencies, antiquated design features etc...) but the end result is usually a gun that is much more sensitive than other designs. In my experience they are indeed less reliable as a whole, despite the legion of followers who swear they have never had a malfunction ever. For self defense purposes that really matter, I rely on my H&K which has a grand total of one malfunction that was caused by a broken spring that needed to be replaced after firing countless thousands of rounds. For having fun at the range or target practice I turn to 1911's. They are definitely good at that.

 

[EddieNFL]

You're right, I'm not a 1911 type, I'm a revolver guy. But lately I've been wanting to get a good, reliable, .45.

Unfortunately, most double stack .45's are too thick for me, and I like a steel frame. I've had a 1911, and it was the greatest pistol I'd ever shot, it just wasn't reliable enough for me.

Get a S&W 625. I doubt you'll ever be happy with a 1911. The internet has poisoned you.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

If you come on the internet looking for bad you are going to find bad, if you google for good your going to find good simple as that. There is no doubt you have had troubles and everyone from time to time does with different manufactures.

This is the reason I created my website to as best as I possibly can try and level the playing field by giving unbiased reviews of firearms I rent, buy or get loaned. So no matter good or bad I post my findings. You will find no advertisements on my site at all as I pay for it all out of my pocket (getting a little expensive) but I am committed to the cause. Having said all that I just posted a review of my S&W 1911 Tactical with 1000 rounds through it and it hasn't seen the first gunsmith. Check it out and let me know what you think.

S&W1911 Tactical Review

 

[Pete D.]

Hmmm.

I want to be convinced to get another 1911, but I have problems trusting them. I know so many people with them that just aren't reliable, and my Springer Loaded wasn't reliable. I see more and more people, both on the internet and in person, say the 1911 isn't as reliable as modern designs.

Hmmm (again)
I wonder what those folk are doing or what they are shooting.
I own two 1911s - a Colt Gold Cup and a Springfield "loaded" that I bought used.
Both guns are super reliable.
The Colt is my Bullseye gun and must have about 60,000 rounds through it at this point. I don't remember the last time it FTF'd. Really.....The number of failures to fire or to function properly are in the single digits.....very very rare.
The same kind of thing is true of the Springer.....it gets shot less than the Colt. I don't remember it not working properly ever.
Pete

 

[TexasRifleman]

The notion that the 1911 is unreliable is a little puzzling.

I think it's really a misstatement of the facts more than anything.
The 1911 is NOT unreliable, it's nearly flawless in design if properly built.

And that's the problem, there are people putting them together who either don't know how, or don't care, to do it properly.

When you buy a Glock, it's made only by Glock, and they know how to make Glocks very well.

When you buy a 1911 you are buying a concept. That concept might be put together by Wilson, Brown, Yost etc and it will be better than JMB could have ever imagined.

Or, it could be put together by someone trying to make a fast buck who doesn't care enough to do it right, resulting in a jam-o-matic that would make JMB cry.
Saying that "1911's are unreliable" is like saying "4 door sedans are cramped inside". Some might be, some might not be, you have to be specific in WHOSE 1911 or sedan we are talking about.

I personally have never owned a 1911 that was not 100% reliable out of the box, and with any name brand magazine I put in them. But I make sure I buy them from people who know how to build them. Some expensive, some not, but they all come from companies known to be good at it. The sad truth is that because the design is so popular, even some big companies jumped into the 1911 business without really doing a good job at it.

 

[mavracer]

Part of the problem is right here. "I read it on the internet that 1911 don't work out of the box or need some work to feed JHPs. So the first thing I did is take my brand new 1911 apart and throated it myself with my trusty dremil. Then I took it out and when it jammed, I posted on the internet how 1911s are unreliable."

 

[boricua9mm]

I believe Larry Vickers said it best when he said something to the effect of "If you treat your handgun like your treat your lawn mower, buy a Glock."

Simply put, the 1911 needs an enthusiastic owner who is willing to provide it with regular/routine maintenance including paying attention to things like extractor tension, mag & recoil spring tension.

I've experienced some unsavory things from the MIM-filled pistols that dominate the "affordable 1911" market. It is my experience that these small parts are more prone to fail out-of-the-blue than good barstock or even cast pieces. A lot of pistol manufacturers build pistols knowing that the average owner will shoot it maybe once or twice a year before storing it away for the next "session."

Know the market, buy once, cry once, and enjoy.

 

[cfullgraf]

Simply put, the 1911 needs an enthusiastic owner who is willing to provide it with regular/routine maintenance including paying attention to things like extractor tension, mag & recoil spring tension.

I have several M1911s. Like a Timex, they take a licking and keep on ticking.

I do a thorough cleaning once in a while including removing the extractor and firing pin to clean their respective channels. Gets all the gunk out from hidden areas.

I have never replaced an extractor. never needed to.

Fiddled with the recoil springs once. Ended up back at the factory spring. I have replaced the recoil springs based on recommended life from the gurus, but the pistols were running fine at the time. Cheap insurance. It is not like the springs are expensive and unavailable.

While some M1911s may be poorly assembled by ham fisted gunsmiths/assemblers, I believe alot of reliability issues with the M1911s are self inflicted.

Guns do not last 100 years in production if they do not work. The new wonder weapons on the market today have not made the M1911 obsolete.

 

[boricua9mm]

I do a thorough cleaning once in a while including removing the extractor and firing pin to clean their respective channels. Gets all the gunk out from hidden areas.

This is an act that is not required on most modern autopistols until the round count is in the several thousands.

I have never replaced an extractor. never needed to.

I haven't either, but I've definitely had the tension change on them.

Fiddled with the recoil springs once. Ended up back at the factory spring. I have replaced the recoil springs based on recommended life from the gurus, but the pistols were running fine at the time. Cheap insurance. It is not like the springs are expensive and unavailable.

The recoil spring replacement interval in the 1911 is a smaller round count than more modern autopistols. Compare the suggested 3k mark for a 1911 to the 6-7k mark for a SIG Sauer P-series, for example. Not a big issue becuase springs are cheap, but it's another thing that 1911 shooters have to be more proactive about.

Guns do not last 100 years in production if they do not work. The new wonder weapons on the market today have not made the M1911 obsolete.

Not obsolete per se, but I believe more modern pistols have pushed the 1911 into more of a niche pistol. It just requires more from the user than other "lawnmower" type designs. The 1911 certainly is more of a "gun guy's" pistol, in that I wouldn't recommend them to someone who wants a gun for protection but doesn't care about the details.

 

[MachIVshooter]

They aren't as reliable for the same reason that a 1960's muscle car isn't as reliable and requires more maintenance than most modern designs.

Not this again

Didn't we get it through people's heads why it's a bad analogy in the other 1911 thread last week???

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

I have the same concerns. It seems like the Springfield G.I. is the lowest-priced agreed-upon higher quality 1911 (Seen them for about $550). I absolutely love 1911s--their look, they're comfortable to shoot, etc... But I have simply heard too much of this "fine tuning" stuff to make me feel comfortable buying a firearm that is more expensive than guns I've NEVER seen have any problems (Glocks). I will eventually purchase one, but it's going to have to be several years from now when I can justify the purchase (career=more money).

What is meant by "fine tuning" anyways?

 

[montgomery381]

1911's are beautiful guns that feel great and are quite accurate and they are one of the classic all American firearms. That said I have yet to see a 1911 that is as reliable as a Sig or Glock. I have only seen 2 Kimbers in action, 1 full size and one 3.5" barrelled. The full sized one's bushing shot off the front at the first shot. The compact one had any malfunction you could think of even after a trip back to the factory. Then just 2 weeks ago I saw a guy with a brand new Para full size in .40 double stack mag that refused to feed. My dad and brother both carry Colt Defenders and they function the best but they have hiccups as well from time to time.

You are looking for a pistol that you will reach for at a moment when you need one the most. Do you really want to be TALKED INTO that gun? A self defense weapon is a life saving tool. Pick one that will always work, one that you can operate and shoot quite proficiently and one that you will carry often. Don't get hung up on the superficial stuff, it is a tool.

 

[stinger 327]

The notion that the 1911 is unreliable is a little puzzling. The main problem is that, with so many different entities marketing them, the specs seem to be all over the map...but even with that...the majority of problems seem to be directly caused by the magazines or improper extractor adjustment. Many others are due to the slide being oversprung.

My main focus with 1911 pistols is in determining why a given pistol malfunctions...and working to make sure that it runs. I've often said that I'd like to have a dollar for every pistol that I've "fixed" by simply handing the owner a few good magazines and telling him to try again. I don't exaggerate when I say that 90% of'em are mystified when their feed and return to battery problems vanish, and most of the others are cured with just a little tweak on the extractors. A very small number are due to something actually being wrong with the gun.

The 1911 was designed to function. If it's built to spec, and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines...it will function. It doesn't have a choice. It's a machine.

Yes different companies like colt, springfield and what about ParaOrdinance? All = same result?

 

[stinger 327]

They aren't as reliable for the same reason that a 1960's muscle car isn't as reliable and requires more maintenance than most modern designs. Sure it may look cooler, have more soul and a better feel, but damn, we sure have learned a lot about making them better over the decades. I love 1911's and own two, but they are strictly range queens for me. Both are made by reputable companies (Colt and Sig) but neither ran 100% out of the box and required some "tuning" or "breaking in" to run reliably. Two of my friends bought Para 1911's within the last 2 years and if you want a manufacturing disaster try buying one of those. Most equipment malfunctions I see at my local range are usually at the hands of someone shooting a 1911. The unreliability label that 1911's have is usually "written off" as a result of a million different things (ammo, magazines, shooting technique, manufacturer inconsistencies, antiquated design features etc...) but the end result is usually a gun that is much more sensitive than other designs. In my experience they are indeed less reliable as a whole, despite the legion of followers who swear they have never had a malfunction ever. For self defense purposes that really matter, I rely on my H&K which has a grand total of one malfunction that was caused by a broken spring that needed to be replaced after firing countless thousands of rounds. For having fun at the range or target practice I turn to 1911's. They are definitely good at that.

Good analogy and comparison using the cars as example.
Like collector cars have value and have their place in garage (A garage queen) vs. a daily driver. The Sig would be the daily driver for SD and 1911 for range shooting.
Makes alot of sense too as I have heard this alot about the 1911 needing more maintenance/tuning. For me between my two choices of the ParaOrdinance Warthog and the Sig P-220 it looks like the Sig wins hands down reputation, quality and reliability. The ParaOrdinance Warthog is just alot more compact gun and of course single action only (cocked & locked).

 

[HDCamel]

What is meant by "fine tuning" anyways?

Two things really:

1- there's this thing called a "break-in period". For well made 1911s it means that the operation smooths out over time. It works during the break-in, but some of the parts can be kind of stiff.
For poorly made 1911s, it means the gun can't be relied upon until this smoothing out takes place.
For liability reasons, a number of manufacturers have recommended break-ins.

2- 1911s are probably the most customized gun on the market. As such, people like to drop in a lot of different parts that might not necessarily fit as they are. Taken to extremes, this can mean that you have to fiddle with it A LOT to make the gun work the way you want it to. "Fine tuning" is ususally only needed for target guns as a balancing act to tighten up groups without jamming the gun every 3 rounds.

If you just want it to go "bang" every time you pull the trigger then a GI or milspec is adequate. They'll run clean, dirty, wet, dry, rusty, you name it.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think the main problem is clone lab manufacturers who think they know better than John Browning, Colt, and the US Army. They cut corners to reduce manufacturing costs, they put in "features" with unforseen consequences in operation, and they are held to no standard set of specifications. The Army had trouble with contractors not maintaining standards of interchangeability of parts, but by golly, they whipped them into line.

A reliable military weapon is not necessarily loose. My 1918 Colt is not as tight as a dedicated target pistol, but it doesn't rattle... if you hold down the grip safety. It doesn't malfunction unless I do something dumb like try to shoot Norma or Super Vel hollowpoint... but that was 45 years ago. Bullet profiles are better understood now, as some of Tuner's guns illustrate.

The Army increased clearances and relaxed tolerances to improve interchangeability in WW II contract guns. WW I and peacetime Colt GI are really quite nicely fitted.

 

[Skylerbone]

I vote reliable from experience. I have a friend whose $500 Citadel runs round for round with his TRP blasting 100s of lead rounds with dirty powder (he loves the fire flash). I've put hundreds of rounds down range at a session without "fine tuning" anything. 100% reliable out of the box? Don't know, I always clean and oil them first but have never had a failure. None. Not bad ammo, weak spring, limp wristed it, none.

If you don't care for any machine it won't care for you. If cleaning and lube are two deal breaking propositions then buy a can of mace.

Learn your chosen platform be it Glock, Sig or 1911. None are infallible, none love dirt or being run dry and none should be carried without understanding the basics.

To the OP, you must convince yourself what is right or wrong for you. If you want suggestions PM someone (Tuner) who sees a lot of them.

 

[cfullgraf]

The recoil spring replacement interval in the 1911 is a smaller round count than more modern autopistols. Compare the suggested 3k mark for a 1911 to the 6-7k mark for a SIG Sauer P-series, for example. Not a big issue becuase springs are cheap, but it's another thing that 1911 shooters have to be more proactive about.

Actually, with todays metallurgy, what makes the springs last in modern design pistols has probably been applied to M1911 springs currently manufactured. i would suspect that current M1911 springs would last as long.

But, old habits die hard and old wives tales last forever.

Speaking of old wives tales, cleaning cycles on older design firearms probably gets their basis, in part, due to corrosive primers. Like the game of telephone, the priorities for cleaning and the required cycle get obscured over time as the information is passed down.

I will agree that a beginner may not be well served buying a M1911. The tendency is to economize, buying guns from manufacturers that may require a little tuning from the get-go. Then the new owner takes the gun to Bubba for a tune up and it gets all fouled up.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

1911s aren't unreliable, Kimbers are.

A Glock can be buried in mud for years and dropped out of a plane. Can a 1911 do that? Probably not, but I SERIOUSLY doubt that it needs to for most people.

A 1911 could survive being thrown out of a plane.

 

[TonyT]

BluiedRevolver,
The S&W 645 is an all steel 45 ACP and will even feed empty cases.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

A 1911 could survive being thrown out of a plane.

That's because their owners would jump out of the plane and catch them before they hit the ground.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'd love proof of a Glock being dropped from a plane and functioning properly, or one with the barrel obstructed with water or mud (don't try these things at home).

The reason all of these pistols have survived and (presumably, as they are generally last resort) worked is due their common feature: an operator who cared for them as if his or her life depended on it working.

 

[Zerodefect]

A good properly built 1911 is perfectly reliable.

The cheaper they get the less attention to detail you get. Then you get more lemons out in the market. When in doubt buy a better brand of 1911. Feed it with Tripp mags.

If you need very good reliability, I usually recommend: EB, LB, DW.

 

[NDanforth]

1911's aren't inherently unreliable and I find that notion kind of silly. But if you are skeptical I don't think anyone can convince you otherwise and you need to be able to trust your equipment. If you don't like double stack auto's I would reccomend a West German Sig P220. If I couldn't have a 1911 that's the EDC I would choose.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

4 of the staff just got back from a Gunsite 250 course that focused on the 1911, it being the centennial and all.

After watching 18 people fire 1,000+ rounds out of 1911's for 5 days, from standing, kneeling, prone, day and night, I don't think it's fair to call the platform unreliable. If anything I walked away with a better appreciation for just how reliable the platform is.

I ended up shooting an RIA 1911 that cost all of $519 from a local dealer and ran it all week with (mostly -- couldn't help myself the first day) no cleaning. No issues to speak of over 1,200+ rounds.

Of all the weapons brought, there were two that had real problems:

• One was an American Classics pistol I'd bought to review. I had 2-3 failures to feed in the first box of 50 rounds, and that failure rate continued as long as it was used. It's getting shipped back for warranty repair next week.
• A new Ruger had a failure that required the gunsmith to fix, but once a properly spec'd spring was installed it ran fine. I blame this on Ruger -- it's apparently a new product, and from the presentation they gave it sounds like they're still making modifications/tweaks to the design. The cool thing is that these are manufactured in Prescott, a dozen miles or so from Gunsite.

I like the 1911. I trust the 1911. I trust them more after watching them be run hard, and especially so after running drill after drill after drill (which includes malfunction drills) so that I know how to handle them properly under stress.

Internet wisdom says "1911s are unreliable until you put lots of money and gunsmithing time into them." This might have been true a couple of decades ago, but I don't think it is any more. Buy a well-made 1911 and expect it to run well if you do your part.