FIVETWOSEVEN
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More like because they are durable, I don't see how a 1911 couldn't survive unless thrown into a garbage compactor.
1911 Unreliable?
- Thread starter BluedRevolver
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More like because they are durable, I don't see how a 1911 couldn't survive unless thrown into a garbage compactor.
WinThePennant
Member
@ The OP,
Take a look at the single stack Glock 36. It's a .45 that a lot of 1911 guys buy.
Take a look at the single stack Glock 36. It's a .45 that a lot of 1911 guys buy.
I've thought about this analogy. I'm going to say.. NOT quite. If you look at the 1911, it's more similar to ONLY the block, pistons, valves and cam. Simple moving parts that need lubrication and work better with better machined tolerances. The same is true of Glocks, except that Glocks are primarily made with the newer, designed in tolerances for today's machines.
What improvements have we had, better lubricants, better metals, better powders (less corrosive, less build up of powder residue).
When the 1911 is built to spec, it's very reliable. Can and DO some companies improve on these tolerances to improve function? YES.
John Browning wouldn't have dream t of a Crimson Trace grip panel laser any more than Henry Ford would have dream t of computer controlled ignition modules and zenon lights.
stinger 327
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Haven't Glocks been tested and fired successfully from being in a oven or able to shoot underwater? I have heard thrown from a helicopter too. Most other guns would not survive this.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Whew! Let's take one thing at a time.
The extractor needs frequent retensioning.
Sheepdip. If the day comes that I can't take a good quality extractor and get 50,000 rounds from it without having to do anything beyond periodic cleaning, I'll quit. I've got one that I took out of a 1918 Black Army Colt...adjusted the tension...installed it in a range beater, and it lasted for years. Of course, I use proper magazines in my pistols, and that has a lot to do with it.
1911s are finicky feeders/The need modification by a pro before they'll feed anything but hardball.
More of the same. I own several original/correct USGI pistols ranging from 1913 to 1945 production that function perfectly with hardball...hollowpoints...and even 200-grain lead SWCs of the Hensley & Gibbs #68 design...and they do it from the old "Hardball Only" magazines.
If they rattle like a box of bolts, they're reliable.
Sometimes...but new USGI and old commercial Government Models didn't rattle like that when they were new. A pistol that's too loose can be worse than one that's too tight. Loose doesn't guarantee reliability any more than tight guarantees accuracy, and a tight pistol can be just as reliable as a loose one and it doesn't offer the wide spaces for dirt and grit to enter.
The magazine is critical...and the same holds true for any self-loading arm. The problem with 1911 magazines is that so many are made to sell rather than made properly, and just because the gun is functioning is no guarantee that it's frunctioning correctly. See the extractor/magazine connection.
I have a pair of early 1991A1 Colts that I bought specifically for range use...and I've done my level best to break those pistols without any conspicious success. I tightened up the slide to frame fit at 75,000 rounds and installed new barrels. I replaced one MIM disconnect at that time...not because it malfunctioned, but because it was looking a little worn. They're now on their third barrels and passed 375,000 rounds collectively last year, when I stopped keeping track.
Both are still operating on their original MIM sears, and one with the original disconnect. Both have their original magazine catches...hammers...spring guides...spring plugs...thumb safeties...(I replaced the grip safeties with King's Drop-ins to stop blistering the web of my hand). One slidestop broke the lug at the 100,000 round mark. The other is OEM. I restaked both plunger tubes early on, just because they weren't properly staked...which is par for the course these days. Neither has given any further trouble. All pins are original, including the plunger assembly and spring.
I replaced the firing pin stops with fitted, small-radius stops as is my SOP.
I replaced both extractors with Wilson Heavy-Duty extractors when I refitted the frames...not because they were causing problems...but just because. They're still there. I had to retension them once because the rims on my much-reloaded cases had grown and they'd self-adjusted to the new diameter. When I switched to a new lot of brass...I got weak ejection, so I readjusted both. No further problems. Both used extractors went on to do duty in other pistols.
I replaced the triggers with solid aluminum triggers so I could trim them to length to suit my hand. Sights are original but modified for my eyes. Neither one has lost a front sight.
One never failed to feed, extract, or eject until about 2 years ago. I had a failure to go to battery that I attributed to a bad cartridge. One malfunction in 18 years. One.
The other gave a little feed trouble after I replaced the first barrel. 15 minute cure. I've had a total of about a dozen malfunctions with that one...always with my reloaded ammo, and always with lead SWCs. A dozen in 18 years. This is the one that broke the slidestop. It didn't shut the gun down, and all it wouldn't do was lock the slide on empty. Aside from that, neither gun has ever failed in that function. Not once.
Neither gun has ever been touched by a Dremel. Any polishing is the result of shooting them. Neither one has had any sort of "Special, Super-Secret Gunsmiffin' Tricks" performed on it.
Neither do I spend a lot of time maintaining my beaters. I give'em a lick and promise after range trips...a little oil...and that's about it. I detail-strip every 2500 rounds or so because my ammunition loaded with home-cast lead bullets and soft lube is filthy. With 18 dogs here to deal with, I don't have time to fuss over a pistol...especially one that was designed to function under adverse conditions...so I don't.
Again...The pistol was designed to function. If it's correctly built to spec and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines...it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.
The extractor needs frequent retensioning.
Sheepdip. If the day comes that I can't take a good quality extractor and get 50,000 rounds from it without having to do anything beyond periodic cleaning, I'll quit. I've got one that I took out of a 1918 Black Army Colt...adjusted the tension...installed it in a range beater, and it lasted for years. Of course, I use proper magazines in my pistols, and that has a lot to do with it.
1911s are finicky feeders/The need modification by a pro before they'll feed anything but hardball.
More of the same. I own several original/correct USGI pistols ranging from 1913 to 1945 production that function perfectly with hardball...hollowpoints...and even 200-grain lead SWCs of the Hensley & Gibbs #68 design...and they do it from the old "Hardball Only" magazines.
If they rattle like a box of bolts, they're reliable.
Sometimes...but new USGI and old commercial Government Models didn't rattle like that when they were new. A pistol that's too loose can be worse than one that's too tight. Loose doesn't guarantee reliability any more than tight guarantees accuracy, and a tight pistol can be just as reliable as a loose one and it doesn't offer the wide spaces for dirt and grit to enter.
The magazine is critical...and the same holds true for any self-loading arm. The problem with 1911 magazines is that so many are made to sell rather than made properly, and just because the gun is functioning is no guarantee that it's frunctioning correctly. See the extractor/magazine connection.
I have a pair of early 1991A1 Colts that I bought specifically for range use...and I've done my level best to break those pistols without any conspicious success. I tightened up the slide to frame fit at 75,000 rounds and installed new barrels. I replaced one MIM disconnect at that time...not because it malfunctioned, but because it was looking a little worn. They're now on their third barrels and passed 375,000 rounds collectively last year, when I stopped keeping track.
Both are still operating on their original MIM sears, and one with the original disconnect. Both have their original magazine catches...hammers...spring guides...spring plugs...thumb safeties...(I replaced the grip safeties with King's Drop-ins to stop blistering the web of my hand). One slidestop broke the lug at the 100,000 round mark. The other is OEM. I restaked both plunger tubes early on, just because they weren't properly staked...which is par for the course these days. Neither has given any further trouble. All pins are original, including the plunger assembly and spring.
I replaced the firing pin stops with fitted, small-radius stops as is my SOP.
I replaced both extractors with Wilson Heavy-Duty extractors when I refitted the frames...not because they were causing problems...but just because. They're still there. I had to retension them once because the rims on my much-reloaded cases had grown and they'd self-adjusted to the new diameter. When I switched to a new lot of brass...I got weak ejection, so I readjusted both. No further problems. Both used extractors went on to do duty in other pistols.
I replaced the triggers with solid aluminum triggers so I could trim them to length to suit my hand. Sights are original but modified for my eyes. Neither one has lost a front sight.
One never failed to feed, extract, or eject until about 2 years ago. I had a failure to go to battery that I attributed to a bad cartridge. One malfunction in 18 years. One.
The other gave a little feed trouble after I replaced the first barrel. 15 minute cure. I've had a total of about a dozen malfunctions with that one...always with my reloaded ammo, and always with lead SWCs. A dozen in 18 years. This is the one that broke the slidestop. It didn't shut the gun down, and all it wouldn't do was lock the slide on empty. Aside from that, neither gun has ever failed in that function. Not once.
Neither gun has ever been touched by a Dremel. Any polishing is the result of shooting them. Neither one has had any sort of "Special, Super-Secret Gunsmiffin' Tricks" performed on it.
Neither do I spend a lot of time maintaining my beaters. I give'em a lick and promise after range trips...a little oil...and that's about it. I detail-strip every 2500 rounds or so because my ammunition loaded with home-cast lead bullets and soft lube is filthy. With 18 dogs here to deal with, I don't have time to fuss over a pistol...especially one that was designed to function under adverse conditions...so I don't.
Again...The pistol was designed to function. If it's correctly built to spec and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines...it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.
stinger 327
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I have heard that the 1911 is very picky with ammo. I would think though that with FMJ it would be alot better-I don't know.
1911Tuner, I agree.
Stinger 327, in my experience, my 45 ACP M1911s do not like anything but round nose bullets. But, they are dead reliable with 230 FMJs. I feel a 45 caliber chunk of lead moving at a leisurely 800-900 fps is more than adequate for the job.
I know that lots of folks have good luck with hollow points and SWCs in their 45 ACP M1911s.
My 38 Super M1911 with an old, headspace on the rim barrel feeds 158 gr SWCs without issue. Unfortunately, the bullets do not fit in a new, headspace on the case mouth barrel. Too bad, it was a sweet load.
Stinger 327, in my experience, my 45 ACP M1911s do not like anything but round nose bullets. But, they are dead reliable with 230 FMJs. I feel a 45 caliber chunk of lead moving at a leisurely 800-900 fps is more than adequate for the job.
I know that lots of folks have good luck with hollow points and SWCs in their 45 ACP M1911s.
My 38 Super M1911 with an old, headspace on the rim barrel feeds 158 gr SWCs without issue. Unfortunately, the bullets do not fit in a new, headspace on the case mouth barrel. Too bad, it was a sweet load.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
They're all picky if they're not built to spec.
A point that so many Glock pundits don't consider is that Gaston's toy is essentially a 1911 copy.
Let's count the ways.
Tilt barrel/locked breech/short recoil operated...Check.
Recoil/Locking lug on top of barrel....Check.
Recoil spring under barrel...Check.
Front slide dismount...Check.
Magazine release on side of frame...Check.
Double column/single feed position...(Grande Rendement) Check.
Barrel cam-up into engagement with the slide...Check. (No. It's not the link that does it.)
Gaston used one massive locking lug instead of three small radial lugs...a step that made production simpler and easier than having to equalize three separate lugs...but the end result is the same.
The differences are in the frame...the gun mount...and the fire controls. Aside from that, it has Browning's fingerprints all over it. It may look like a revolutionary new design...but at its heart...it's a 1911.
It's nothing new. The only people who are better known for stealin' licks are guitar players.
I remember when the Beretta 92 Series burst upon the scene, and everybody was wowed and in awe of this new-age wonder and how it made everything else that came before it obsolete. I field-stripped one beside a Walther P38 and invited them to take a close look. Jaws dropped and silence was evident.
When the question comes up over whether John Browning would like the Glock...I say:
"Sure. Why wouldn't he? He designed most of it."
Skylerbone
Member
What you may have heard was "My new ___ didn't like Ranger T but fed WWB just fine." some people read that as "My 1911s don't feed hollow point ammo worth a darn, should have believed the Internet."
Far too many commandos out there getting hung up on finding some perfect combination of pistol/cartridge/magazine/holster/springs/sights/duty belt/lube. Find a pistol that is considered reliable, suits your purpose, fits you properly and find the round that works every time and a comfortable, solid holster to put it in.
My father got caught up with the idea of Superformance ammo and bought some 20 boxes for a brand new rifle in .300 Win. Mag. Long story short, he forgot his training, ignored advice, bought a second rifle, declared both horribly inaccurate and, were it not for a case head separation, might still be accepting 5" groups. Last 5-shot groups averaging 1.5" at 200 yards, either rifle...with Winchester, Federal and Remington ammo.
Don't fail because you cannot adapt, be it with ammo, a favorite magazine or a new platform. Most things work most of the time, guys like Tuner can help with the rest.
Far too many commandos out there getting hung up on finding some perfect combination of pistol/cartridge/magazine/holster/springs/sights/duty belt/lube. Find a pistol that is considered reliable, suits your purpose, fits you properly and find the round that works every time and a comfortable, solid holster to put it in.
My father got caught up with the idea of Superformance ammo and bought some 20 boxes for a brand new rifle in .300 Win. Mag. Long story short, he forgot his training, ignored advice, bought a second rifle, declared both horribly inaccurate and, were it not for a case head separation, might still be accepting 5" groups. Last 5-shot groups averaging 1.5" at 200 yards, either rifle...with Winchester, Federal and Remington ammo.
Don't fail because you cannot adapt, be it with ammo, a favorite magazine or a new platform. Most things work most of the time, guys like Tuner can help with the rest.
stinger 327
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I can agree to that as no matter what load you use in a .45 ACP it is going to make a big hole expansion or not and so if FMJ feeds reliably fine then that's ok.
I only have one Glock and a number of 1911's. I have to agree that the Glock is much more reliable that my (I can only attest to my guns) 1911's. It is just that simple for me. I have no dog in this hunt for steel vrs polymer, or looks vrs ugly, or domestic vrs foreign, or history vrs new design......... Hell I shoot the 1911 2X's better than the Gock, but, I pick up that darn Glock (regardless of ammo) and it goes bang every time!
stinger 327
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That's what I'm talkin about.
Glocks in an oven? Don't know about that. I did read an account of the CIA investigating a firey plane crash in which an agent was killed. The dead agent's Glock was recovered in the remains of the burnt-out plane and it still functioned fine.
Go figure.
Go figure.
*NOVA*
Member
I have the exact same gun, same finish - very pleased with it. The OP wants to be convinced 1911s are reliable and I am convinced they CAN be reliable under the following conditions: 1. Properly broken -in with at least 500 rounds. 2. WELL oiled - shoot 'em wet!
3. Cleaned after 200 rounds. 4. Good quality magazines - I'm OK with my original SW mags came with the gun but plan on trying out the Chip McCormick magazine.
para38super
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double tap.
para38super
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stinger 327
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Could always go with the Sig Sauer P-220 .45 ACP we know this is reliable and has a reputation of excellence.
"They aren't as reliable for the same reason that a 1960's muscle car isn't as reliable and requires more maintenance than most modern designs."
Whooaaa a thousand pardons. I don't get to read every thread on THR. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure it's a bad analogy in your mind because you like 1911's. Fair enough, I like them too but I realize when a design has been surpassed and improved upon in terms of reliability.
Whooaaa a thousand pardons. I don't get to read every thread on THR. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure it's a bad analogy in your mind because you like 1911's. Fair enough, I like them too but I realize when a design has been surpassed and improved upon in terms of reliability.
stinger 327
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No more leaded gas.
Pete D.
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Yipe.
Let me retreat to my earlier comment and add just a bit. I own three .45s - a Colt and a Springfield as already mentioned. I also own a Glock 36.
The 36.....
My 36 is super reliable but only with 230 grain FMJ ammo or Winchester Silvertips. It doesn't like anything else.(Anything else that I have tried.) That's fine with me as those loads cover all my needs.
The Springfield is as it came out of the box and has shot anything that I have put into one of its magazines.
The high round count Bullseye gun was "accurized" by the late George Madore so that it would shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards. That work did not harm its reliability at all as I noted in my earlier post.
Contrary to reports about being unreliable, what I read most is how "modern" and effective this 100 year old design is.
Pete
Let me retreat to my earlier comment and add just a bit. I own three .45s - a Colt and a Springfield as already mentioned. I also own a Glock 36.
That is also true of both my Springfield and my Colt.
The 36.....
My 36 is super reliable but only with 230 grain FMJ ammo or Winchester Silvertips. It doesn't like anything else.(Anything else that I have tried.) That's fine with me as those loads cover all my needs.
The Springfield is as it came out of the box and has shot anything that I have put into one of its magazines.
The high round count Bullseye gun was "accurized" by the late George Madore so that it would shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards. That work did not harm its reliability at all as I noted in my earlier post.
Contrary to reports about being unreliable, what I read most is how "modern" and effective this 100 year old design is.
Pete
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I do have wadcutter magazines for range use. I cast and shoot 200 grain SWCs almost exclusively on the range.
All the range mags are 7 rounders with the standard steel follower, complete with the speed bump on top and driven by Wolff 11-pound springs. That bump is important, along with enough spring tension.
My carry magazines are 7-rounders, also with the standard followers with the bump on top...also driven by Wolff 11-pound springs. The feed lips are the "hybrid" type...with the gradual taper of the USGI "Hardball" magazine and a slightly later, less abrupt timed release point. A "hybrid" that provides the best of both worlds that works equally well with hardball's 1.260-1.275 inch overall length...or hollowpoint's typical 1.200-1.225 length. They also work well with the Hensley & Gibbs #68 200 SWC at 1.235-1.250 inch OAL.
My carry ammo? Hardball.
Jim Watson
Member
My point exactly. Just which modifications and tweaks to a proven design did those cast iron geniuses at Ruger feel compelled to make? A faithful copy of a period Colt with Ruger trademark and Cooper Improvements (sights you can see, a trigger you can control, and removal of sharp corners that would make it unpleasant to handle) would be a serviceable firearm with no tweaks.
Do you perhaps mean "1991A1 Colts," Tuner?
They sure weren't using MIM in early 1911a1 Colts in the 1920s.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I did, Jim. Thanks for the typo heads up. I will correct in due haste.
Done. I even fixed it in stinger's quote. heh
Done. I even fixed it in stinger's quote. heh
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