Sven
Senior Member
Pics were taken by Oleg Volk.
1911s, what's the big deal?
- Thread starter HBK
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Andrew Wyatt
Member
I'm still trying to find out what problem a double action auto solves that a 1911 will not, besides safe holsterless pocket carry.
Pico: I shoot a 1911 quite a bit faster than my dad's cz-40, and only a little slower than my dad's ruger mark2 .22 it's likely that your form is not how it should be for 1911 shooting, as a 1911 is different than a glock or a sig.
All of the 1911s in the house will feed empty cases when hand cycled briskly, and none of them have choked on jhp ammo.
Could you name these "more modern handguns that do the job better"?
Which job are you talking about?
I have small hands and i'm not very strong, and i prefer the 1911, primarly because it's the only full sized autopistol out there that fits me and is in a useable caliber besides the kahr.
Pico: I shoot a 1911 quite a bit faster than my dad's cz-40, and only a little slower than my dad's ruger mark2 .22 it's likely that your form is not how it should be for 1911 shooting, as a 1911 is different than a glock or a sig.
All of the 1911s in the house will feed empty cases when hand cycled briskly, and none of them have choked on jhp ammo.
Could you name these "more modern handguns that do the job better"?
Which job are you talking about?
I have small hands and i'm not very strong, and i prefer the 1911, primarly because it's the only full sized autopistol out there that fits me and is in a useable caliber besides the kahr.
varoadking
Member
Can anyone rapid fire a out of the box 1911?
Funny you should ask that...
Took the brand new .45 Springfield TRP to the range for its baptism today. Second magazine - last 5 rounds discharged full auto. Did this on three consecutive magazines - last 3, 4 or 5 rounds each time. Shot dead-on POA/POI otherwise - 7 rounds/3 holes in the bull! One of them had all 5 rounds through it, so I don't think that counts.
Fast enough for ya?
Needless to say - it drew some attention - and was, admitedly, fun. This one's going back to Geneseo on the next flight out...
Funny you should ask that...
Took the brand new .45 Springfield TRP to the range for its baptism today. Second magazine - last 5 rounds discharged full auto. Did this on three consecutive magazines - last 3, 4 or 5 rounds each time. Shot dead-on POA/POI otherwise - 7 rounds/3 holes in the bull! One of them had all 5 rounds through it, so I don't think that counts.
Fast enough for ya?
Needless to say - it drew some attention - and was, admitedly, fun. This one's going back to Geneseo on the next flight out...
B27
Member
Sure you wanna do that, va?
I could of sworn I saw an ad for thirty round 1911 mags......
I could of sworn I saw an ad for thirty round 1911 mags......
Quintin Likely
Member
Toting around a single action pistol with a round in the chamber, hammer back with no safety gives me the willies. The 1911 wasn't intended to be carried cocked and unlocked. Either cocked and locked or empty chamber. Keep-your-finger-off-the-trigger-till-you're-ready is great for DA/SA autos, since there's that loooonnngggg 8-10 lbs (if not more) first DA trigger pull.
And many of my friends who own 1911s (I don't own one either...not yet) say JHPs cycle fine in them. If feeding a big problem, there's always ammo like Cor-Bon's Powerball or Federal EFMJ. The majority of modern 1911s from reputable manufacturers are screwed together well and are pretty darn reliable. Most reliablity horror stories come from no-name 1911s or from box-stock 1911s that have been tinkered with to the nth degree to the point where reliablity has been compromised. If it ain't broke...
How many rounds do you expect to fire in a self-defensive situation? I've never been there, but I'm gonna guess if a two-bit crook who wanted your wallet sees you returning fire in his direction, he may bug out and call it even since the guy he thought was helpless is ready to hurt him badly. If the hood in question is trading shots with you, you're probably up against something other than the standard run-of-the-mill hoodlum. And while they may not be "true" 1911s, there are double stack high capacity 1911s from companies like Kimber, Springfield, Wilson Combat, and Para Ordnance if you want to send the best and a lot of it down-range.
<edited for spelling>
Rob96
Member
Why use a revovler if you do have a 1911 that will feed JHP's all day long. While I am a fan of 357magnums revovlers, and my my KGP-141 weighs as much as my Colt 1991A1, the Colt is more comfortable. Also, with the dimple throating that they do, it feeds JHP's just fine.
varoadking
Member
I saw an ad for thirty round 1911 mags......
Don't go givin' me any ideas...
Don't go givin' me any ideas...
antediluvianist
Member
- Joined
- May 16, 2003
- Messages
- 182
Regarding this hollow-point versus ball debate, hey guys, let's be real - the chances are you will never get into a real gunfight; and if you do and you hit the guy with hardball - well, the object is to make the other person stop, not necessarily to kill him/her . Anybody out there who won't be stopped with a .45 hardball or two in center mass? The Incredible Hulk?
Placement is always the most important factor. A .45 or two- hardball, softball, blueball, whatever - in center mass will do it. The Brits have had the right idea since they started using their larger Webleys - a large, slow bullet has the momentum to hurt the other person bad.
Here's to large, slow bullets! A 230 grain .45 slug is twice as massive as the typical 9mm. 115 grain slug. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity..
The velocity of the 9mm. slug (about 1200 ft/sec.) is certainly not twice as fast as the velocity of the .45 slug (about 850 ft./sec.), ergo the .45 has significantly better momentum (knock-down power). M x Vsquared is Energy, but what counts is Momentum, which is just M x V.
However, Pico, I do believe you are right that - OUT OF THE BOX - any 1911, no matter how expensive, is not likely to be anywhere nearly as reliable as a modern pistol such as the obviously reliable Glock 17 (the other Glock models are not as reliable.) I say that as an owner of two 1911s. They are reliable enough, but do malfunction. But you gotta love the .45 cartridge. Get the gun for the cartridge.
Placement is always the most important factor. A .45 or two- hardball, softball, blueball, whatever - in center mass will do it. The Brits have had the right idea since they started using their larger Webleys - a large, slow bullet has the momentum to hurt the other person bad.
Here's to large, slow bullets! A 230 grain .45 slug is twice as massive as the typical 9mm. 115 grain slug. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity..
The velocity of the 9mm. slug (about 1200 ft/sec.) is certainly not twice as fast as the velocity of the .45 slug (about 850 ft./sec.), ergo the .45 has significantly better momentum (knock-down power). M x Vsquared is Energy, but what counts is Momentum, which is just M x V.
However, Pico, I do believe you are right that - OUT OF THE BOX - any 1911, no matter how expensive, is not likely to be anywhere nearly as reliable as a modern pistol such as the obviously reliable Glock 17 (the other Glock models are not as reliable.) I say that as an owner of two 1911s. They are reliable enough, but do malfunction. But you gotta love the .45 cartridge. Get the gun for the cartridge.
lycanthrope
Member
When I bought my first handgun in 1984, I thought the 1911 looked square and ugly. I was into high capacity and spray and pray. I shot Rugers, Berettas, Sigs and more recently Glocks and XD's.
3 years ago I shot a Kimber .45 and bought one a few months later. Shooting IDPA and USPSA has taught me a lot about what I thought I knew about shooting fast and accurately. I KNOW I can shoot a 1911 A LOT faster than any of the other above mentioned guns (the XD is nice though). There is a reason that single action 1911 style guns are in different divisions than other double action or safe action guns. Correctly fitted to the user, they are almost always faster. I would trade the 15+1 spray and pray to 8+1 "A-zone" hits any day. If I need 15+1 then my situational awareness has likely slipped hard. I'm in a place I never should have been (ok, I do carry an extra 8 round mag, just in case). Cocked and locked? Been carrying high power rifles for years like that. The exposed hammer just freaks out the ignorant.
3 years ago I shot a Kimber .45 and bought one a few months later. Shooting IDPA and USPSA has taught me a lot about what I thought I knew about shooting fast and accurately. I KNOW I can shoot a 1911 A LOT faster than any of the other above mentioned guns (the XD is nice though). There is a reason that single action 1911 style guns are in different divisions than other double action or safe action guns. Correctly fitted to the user, they are almost always faster. I would trade the 15+1 spray and pray to 8+1 "A-zone" hits any day. If I need 15+1 then my situational awareness has likely slipped hard. I'm in a place I never should have been (ok, I do carry an extra 8 round mag, just in case). Cocked and locked? Been carrying high power rifles for years like that. The exposed hammer just freaks out the ignorant.
Capacity issues
Of course 15 or 17 rounds should never be needed and I fully see the point that we do not live in the movies where gunfights go on for many rounds. Usually after only one round, someone is dead or incapacitated in the real world.
All of your arguments are very convincing and obviously I am in the minority concerning the 1911 and .45 cart since no one else has really agreed with me.
I've heard some say they love the 1911 and some love it because of the .45 it uses. I think a lot of folks love it because that's what they shoot and is what they'll always shoot and there's nothing wrong with that. It looks like the original poster's question has been answered - repeatedly.
Despite the Glock and Beretta's footprint in the police and military, the .45 is still being used by some elite units (FBI SWAT and Marines MEU-recon). So it is not truly obsolete as a service weapon.
I don't want one but I see now why everybody else does and a lot of good information has come out. Thanks...
Getting off the original subject a bit...
I'm a little confused why people damn a cheap little Kel-Tec P-11 which has been reported to have reliability problems "out of the box" (Mine has never had any problems at all) and smile and allow a much more expensive weapon with problems out of the box to escape criticism. I'm for gun manufacturers to make reliable arms regardless of price and if they aren't reliable, make them so at their expense.
If Glock can make their pistols work more reliably, the other manufacturers should improve their products accordingly and not expect us to complete the process.
Pico
Of course 15 or 17 rounds should never be needed and I fully see the point that we do not live in the movies where gunfights go on for many rounds. Usually after only one round, someone is dead or incapacitated in the real world.
All of your arguments are very convincing and obviously I am in the minority concerning the 1911 and .45 cart since no one else has really agreed with me.
I've heard some say they love the 1911 and some love it because of the .45 it uses. I think a lot of folks love it because that's what they shoot and is what they'll always shoot and there's nothing wrong with that. It looks like the original poster's question has been answered - repeatedly.
Despite the Glock and Beretta's footprint in the police and military, the .45 is still being used by some elite units (FBI SWAT and Marines MEU-recon). So it is not truly obsolete as a service weapon.
I don't want one but I see now why everybody else does and a lot of good information has come out. Thanks...
Getting off the original subject a bit...
I'm a little confused why people damn a cheap little Kel-Tec P-11 which has been reported to have reliability problems "out of the box" (Mine has never had any problems at all) and smile and allow a much more expensive weapon with problems out of the box to escape criticism. I'm for gun manufacturers to make reliable arms regardless of price and if they aren't reliable, make them so at their expense.
If Glock can make their pistols work more reliably, the other manufacturers should improve their products accordingly and not expect us to complete the process.
Pico
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I'm still waiting to get a 1911 that has all the problems folks relate. None of mine have been the super high dollar models. All have run like champs.
The few failures to feed that I've had during the break in period were mirrored by the few failures to feed I experienced with my Glock 29 out of the box.
And I haven't criticized a Kel-Tec. I carry a Kel-Tec as a BUG everywhere I carry my 1911 and many places where I am unable to carry the 1911.
I do not carry a 1911 because that is what I carry and what I shoot.
The first gun I carried on a daily basis thirty years ago was a Mauser Hsc.
Then a Dan Wesson .357. Then a FN HP. Then a Glock 29. Then a 1911.
The few failures to feed that I've had during the break in period were mirrored by the few failures to feed I experienced with my Glock 29 out of the box.
And I haven't criticized a Kel-Tec. I carry a Kel-Tec as a BUG everywhere I carry my 1911 and many places where I am unable to carry the 1911.
I do not carry a 1911 because that is what I carry and what I shoot.
The first gun I carried on a daily basis thirty years ago was a Mauser Hsc.
Then a Dan Wesson .357. Then a FN HP. Then a Glock 29. Then a 1911.
Isn't this what it really boils down to? You haven't had any trouble with a particular example of a Kel-Tec, and I have had two FTEs on my latest 1911, both occurring in the first 50 rounds, one of which was because a Blazer rim gave way, and never since through the next 5500+. If that is "unreliable" I will take it and the 1911's reputation for choking.
Shaughn Leayme
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 245
A friend brought up the question of the limited mag capacity of the 1911 (7+1, 8+1) and how I might as well carry a revolver.
I had a simple answer, I can reload on the fly at about .85 seconds (average) from a magazine pouch, I haven't timed my reload for a revolver with a speed loader (I don't have any revolvers that use full moon clips, as of yet) but I know it is not anywhere near .85 sec.
In a 1911 (or most any auto) one can dump the empty magazine with one hand, while at the same time be bringing the full magazine up and insert it into the butt of the pistol and release slide and get back to the business at hand.
In a revolver, one must use the other hand to trip the cylinder release and push the cylinder out, turn the revolver upwards and push the ejector rod, to vigorously eject the casings, then with the revolver in a muzzle down position, retrieve the speed loader from it's pouch and insert and using the index finger of the primary hand to hold the cylinder in place, spin the knob on the speed loader with the off hand, then close the cylinder and get back into action.
Now admittedly, the possibility that you would get into a fight that requires a reload is a rare event, but it can happen and given how the bg's of the world are beginning to run in packs, the ability to get back into the action quickly is an important point.
Never mind the fact, that if there is a lull in the action that one can easily top up an auto by inserting a full magazine and retaining the partial, you still have a round up the spout and provided that you have no magazine safety, you can still shoot if need be. With the revolver it is an all or nothing situation, since if the cylinder is open while you are reloading, it is basically out of comission.
Like anything it comes down to the personal preference of the user.
I had a simple answer, I can reload on the fly at about .85 seconds (average) from a magazine pouch, I haven't timed my reload for a revolver with a speed loader (I don't have any revolvers that use full moon clips, as of yet) but I know it is not anywhere near .85 sec.
In a 1911 (or most any auto) one can dump the empty magazine with one hand, while at the same time be bringing the full magazine up and insert it into the butt of the pistol and release slide and get back to the business at hand.
In a revolver, one must use the other hand to trip the cylinder release and push the cylinder out, turn the revolver upwards and push the ejector rod, to vigorously eject the casings, then with the revolver in a muzzle down position, retrieve the speed loader from it's pouch and insert and using the index finger of the primary hand to hold the cylinder in place, spin the knob on the speed loader with the off hand, then close the cylinder and get back into action.
Now admittedly, the possibility that you would get into a fight that requires a reload is a rare event, but it can happen and given how the bg's of the world are beginning to run in packs, the ability to get back into the action quickly is an important point.
Never mind the fact, that if there is a lull in the action that one can easily top up an auto by inserting a full magazine and retaining the partial, you still have a round up the spout and provided that you have no magazine safety, you can still shoot if need be. With the revolver it is an all or nothing situation, since if the cylinder is open while you are reloading, it is basically out of comission.
Like anything it comes down to the personal preference of the user.
Tamara
Senior Member
None of my current 1911's have been anything other than 100% reliable. With ball, with JHP, with semi-wadcutters, with +P, with standard pressure, whatever. I have had, in the past, some much balkier ones. But I should laugh at, say, Wilsons because an Auto Ord was a piece of junk?
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
My take on this whole thing is, in the end, simply this: you don't have to like design X, but if you are going to talk smack about it, it helps to actually know something about it that isn't gun counter jibber-jabber or third-hand ersatz "knowledge."
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Sean,
I'll agree with that...to a point I don't care for SA/DA platforms for I see no need for them. I've always described them as a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem. But I don't denigrate specific models...just the entire class.
ducks for cover...digging furiously
I'll agree with that...to a point
I don't care for SA/DA platforms for I see no need for them. I've always described them as a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem. But I don't denigrate specific models...just the entire class. ducks for cover...digging furiously
agentwithrow
Member
DA/SA , saftey here or there, damn who cares, it why all these fine pistols are made different to suit different shooting styles and people preference. I have absolutely no trouble, switching from my SW1911 (saftey swings down to hot) and then the next set use the 92FS in which it swings up to hot. and if I use my USP Expert it's different with the decock, if you have trouble with a saftey or trigger, you got 3 optioins!
* buy another pistol
* practice more, train, prepare
* don't carry
Oh yeah, ask Rob Leatham if anyone can shoot a 1911 fast.......
* buy another pistol
* practice more, train, prepare
* don't carry
Oh yeah, ask Rob Leatham if anyone can shoot a 1911 fast.......
jacketch
Member
In regard to mag capacity: The 1911 more than makes up for that alleged shortcoming by ensuring a high percentage of one shot stops.
farscott
Member
I think there are a few reasons why the 1911 gets a "bad rap" for reliability in some circles.
1) The design has been modified by so many people in so many ways, and there have been many manufacturers, with varying levels of quality. There are variants with 6" barrels and variants with 3" barrels, and just about every length in between. It has been chambered for just about as many rounds as the Colt SAA, everything from .22 LR to .357 Magnum to .45 ACP to 10mm Auto to 9x23 Winchester. With all of these variants, it is not surprising that some 1911's just do not run well.
2) Kitchen-table gunsmithing. Just about every used 1911 I have ever bought has needed some work to be undone. I have found them with mangled sear springs, wacky sights, messed up thumb safeties, horrible sears, and a litany of other abuse. My standard practice when buying a used 1911 is a to take it to my trusted gunsmith for a full check-up. Buying a 1911 used is not an exercise for those new to the platform.
That being said, all of my centerfire autoloading pistols are 1911's. I tried just about everything else, and nothing works better for me. They fit my small hands, are easy to carry concealed, and have a very simple manual of arms. I shoot 1911's faster and more accurately than other autoloading pistol designs.
1) The design has been modified by so many people in so many ways, and there have been many manufacturers, with varying levels of quality. There are variants with 6" barrels and variants with 3" barrels, and just about every length in between. It has been chambered for just about as many rounds as the Colt SAA, everything from .22 LR to .357 Magnum to .45 ACP to 10mm Auto to 9x23 Winchester. With all of these variants, it is not surprising that some 1911's just do not run well.
2) Kitchen-table gunsmithing. Just about every used 1911 I have ever bought has needed some work to be undone. I have found them with mangled sear springs, wacky sights, messed up thumb safeties, horrible sears, and a litany of other abuse. My standard practice when buying a used 1911 is a to take it to my trusted gunsmith for a full check-up. Buying a 1911 used is not an exercise for those new to the platform.
That being said, all of my centerfire autoloading pistols are 1911's. I tried just about everything else, and nothing works better for me. They fit my small hands, are easy to carry concealed, and have a very simple manual of arms. I shoot 1911's faster and more accurately than other autoloading pistol designs.
XavierBreath
Member
You know, after a decade and a half or so of shooting DA/SA type pistols, this year I finally gave in and bought a Springfield Mil-Spec. For me, the proof was in the pudding. This is a pistol that I am more accurate with. Whether it's the trigger or whatever, I am a better shooter with it in my hand. I am much faster on the first shot as well, and more accurate doing that. It is simply easier for me to hold on target and snick off a thumb safety and fire a SA round accurately than to hold a DA/SA pistol on target while quickly pressing a DA trigger. That first shot does count in defense.
I bought that Mil-Spec around Febuary. I now have FIVE 1911 style handguns, if you count my Paraordnance 6.45 LDA (That is my hot weather carry gun now). The others range from a springfield WWII model to a Gold Cup. A lot of DA/SA iron got traded off, and I'm a lot happier for it. I wasn't a bad shooter with the DA/SA, (and the HK USPs are safe since you can C&L them) but I am a better shooter with the SA platform. That was enough for me. Your results may vary.
I bought that Mil-Spec around Febuary. I now have FIVE 1911 style handguns, if you count my Paraordnance 6.45 LDA (That is my hot weather carry gun now). The others range from a springfield WWII model to a Gold Cup. A lot of DA/SA iron got traded off, and I'm a lot happier for it. I wasn't a bad shooter with the DA/SA, (and the HK USPs are safe since you can C&L them) but I am a better shooter with the SA platform. That was enough for me. Your results may vary.
MoNsTeR
Member
There are 3 wonderful things about the 1911:
1. the trigger
2. the trigger
3. the trigger
1. the trigger
2. the trigger
3. the trigger
Sunray
Member
"...the 1911 fits most people's hands better than..." Exactly. I have wide but short hands. My Colt fits me. None of the supernines or DA pistols do. Not one. I hate it, because I was working in a gun store when the CZ75's first came into Canada. Long before they got into the States. Nice. Desparately wanted one. Too big.
In the olden days, the gun rags always said what a big, powerful pistol it is.
Big recoil and all the rest. Nonsense. It's fun shooting a .45. I even find I like it more than my HP. Not as much blast and noise.
The only grief my Colt has ever given me was caused by ammo. Operator failure at the loading bench. Popped a primer that drove the cast bullet about half way down the barrel, didn't notice it and bulged the barrel on the next shot. Change of barrels and away it went as if nothing happened.
Also, they're easy to work on. There's lots of aftermarket parts and you don't have to put anything on one except for good sights. And that's easy and inexpensive.
In the olden days, the gun rags always said what a big, powerful pistol it is.
Big recoil and all the rest. Nonsense. It's fun shooting a .45. I even find I like it more than my HP. Not as much blast and noise.
The only grief my Colt has ever given me was caused by ammo. Operator failure at the loading bench. Popped a primer that drove the cast bullet about half way down the barrel, didn't notice it and bulged the barrel on the next shot. Change of barrels and away it went as if nothing happened.
Also, they're easy to work on. There's lots of aftermarket parts and you don't have to put anything on one except for good sights. And that's easy and inexpensive.
HBK
member
I don't know the people's names. I was more worried about my shooting and learning what was being taught. I just noticed people working on their 1911s. I took 6 classes. In 5 classes I saw at least one to two people that had something go wrong with their 1911 to the point that they had to get it worked on. I don't know the details. It just left me with the impression, that "If they break down that much, why have one." I think there was an extractor problem with one and a trigger problem with one. That's about it.
While I highly respect 1911 pistols and numerous other designs by J.M. Browning many of the owners get "annoying" because of their dogmatism. Nothing but a .45 will do and it HAS to be shot through a 1911 design. Nothing else will do for them so nothing else will do for others. "1911 true believers" are more insistant than others on this point. Although in reality they relish the fact that so many others use "inferior" pistols or calibers. These are the same personality types that are dogmatic about their individual Glocks, SIG's, H&K's, and .357 wheelguns. These people are not really concerned about you and your choice. In reality its about how things reflect on them compared to others. There are many great things about owning a 1911 but slandering other people's choices (esp. from people who never actually had to rely on one in real life) simply shows a lack of class. That's why I haven't and will never talk down about another person's weapon.
I primary shoot Glocks and SIG's and I have no problem celebrating the virtues of the "cocked and locked/big and slow" philosophy. I used to own several Colt 1911's myself and decided it wasn't for me. I write this after buying some .40 S&W hollowpoints today and the gun clerk shakes his head and tells me, "I don't believe in those small bullets. That's why I carry a 1911 .45" (Unconsciously, breathes in and pushes out his chest) I remarked "Well, I've a SIG .45 at home too". He retorts, "So what are you doing with this then?"
What are you gonna do? People who truely understand the virtues and pitfalls of 1911's, DA/SA's, Glocks, revolvers, and various calibers (and each of their reason for being) tend to have a more objective, nay realistic, understanding of the role of the defensive handgun.
I primary shoot Glocks and SIG's and I have no problem celebrating the virtues of the "cocked and locked/big and slow" philosophy. I used to own several Colt 1911's myself and decided it wasn't for me. I write this after buying some .40 S&W hollowpoints today and the gun clerk shakes his head and tells me, "I don't believe in those small bullets. That's why I carry a 1911 .45" (Unconsciously, breathes in and pushes out his chest) I remarked "Well, I've a SIG .45 at home too". He retorts, "So what are you doing with this then?"
What are you gonna do? People who truely understand the virtues and pitfalls of 1911's, DA/SA's, Glocks, revolvers, and various calibers (and each of their reason for being) tend to have a more objective, nay realistic, understanding of the role of the defensive handgun.
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