Hollow Point Controversy

[Buzz9mm]

I agree, but researching and debating on a forum is a lot cheaper . I'm pretty dang good with my .40 and from what I hear a .45 has less recoil. Regardless I plan on selling my .40. Not because of what I've read but because of my experience with it. A big thing that I notice is that I can't one hand the .40 accurately like I can with a 9mm. Probably doesn't matter but you never know. I plan on getting a .45 soon and then a 9mm when money permits. I'll use the .45 for carry and the 9mm for practice.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

I am a big bullet guy all the way , but I think you are jumping the gun by ditching your .40 ! The 135 grn hp is probably the worst possible hollowpoint as far as penetration goes ! I would bet that a 155 or 165 grain bullet would have made it to the vitals ! I carry a .45 because I am betting that if i ever have to use it it will be up close and personal I also feel the .45 is more controllable than the .40 and I am betting on on 10 Remington Golden sabers from my Glock 30 to get the job done !If I had a 40 and shot it well I wouldnt change ! And if I had to trade my g 30 for a g19 I would just pack it full of 147 grain Golden Sabers and never worry ! Kevin

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm skipping all of the replies. The OP is really overthinking this. Any premium JHP bullet in any service cartridge is going to be the most effective way to stop a bad guy.

Life is going to be really complicated (not to mention expensive) if you let every article or anecdote you read change your whole game plan.

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, Deckard, you just need a bigger gun , thats always the solution

(That's a 20 right there, as in 20mm)


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469914

 

[TAKtical]

Shot placement is the most important factor regardless of the caliber. To be a better shot you need to practice a lot. 9mm is cheaper so you can shoot twice as much for the same price vs .45acp. Mag capacity is also a factor, so is recoil when you need to make a follow up shot. 9mm has proven itself. So has .45acp. Id rather have 20 rounds of 9mm than 8 rounds of .45acp so thats why i carry a 9mm. Carry whatever suits your needs but dont discredit 9mm because of some "research" you did online.

 

[ns66]

in my view mini-rifle 5.7mm is the best hanggun round
i really hope more gun makers will make more autos for that round

 

[Rexster]

Someone may well have already pointed this out, but the OP indicated the .40 round missed the heart. Well, a .45 in the same spot would also have missed the heart, and probably have had the same effect. A miss is a miss; this is why we train to shoot bad guys early and often; early to get the all-important first hit, and often, in order to damage multiple organs.

I am not defending the .40, and I happen to like .45 ACP, mostly because its recoil is a gentle shove, not snappy, and because muzzle flash and blast are kind to my aging eyes and ears.

I say this so often, I might make it my sig line: I work for one of the USA's largest police departments. Since the late 1990s, our standard primary duty pistol cartridge has been the .40 S&W. The .45 ACP was one of the more popular choices before that date, and remains popular in the "grandfathered" duty pistols of senior officers. The result? No change! When we hit the important bits, they usually go down. When we miss the important bits, they may may or may not go down. We try to shoot early and often, of course, but quite a few bad guys fall with just one hole in them.

 

[easyg]

Have you personally seen a 9mm break bones? I got that from the medical examiner that said that's the trend that he saw at the morgue. I personally don't know, so I can't say for sure, but it makes sense to me since the .45 weighs twice as much.

Yes, I have seen broken bones due to 9mm gunshot wounds, and more than one.
I happen to be a radiographer.

I just recently radiographed a guy who had his femur shattered by a self inflicted GSW with a 9mm handgun (an accident per the patient).
It didn't kill him (thanks to 911 and a quick response by the EMS), but he did have to go to surgery and get a titanium rod implanted to repair his femur.
And the femur is much thicker and stronger than a rib or the sternum.

Anyone who tells you that a 9mm cannot break bones is either ignorant of the truth or is intentionally misleading you.


Easy

 

[easyg]

That video I was watching stated that roughly 6 out of 7 people survive being shot by a pistol.

The high survival rate is mostly due to the quick response time by EMS' and getting the wounded guy to the ER and to surgery within that "Golden Hour".
That, and antibiotics to fight infection post surgery.

But folks who are shot and who do not quickly receive medical treatment usually die from their wounds.

Think about it...
Say you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean, no medical supplies whatsoever, no radio, no satellite phone, no communications whatsoever.
And you're at least five weeks from shore.
Someone shoots you in the chest or belly with a 9mm pistol.
What do you think your chances of survival would be?

Also, since when do we need to "dump all of the energy into the target?" Again, just BS hype that people buy into.

You think it's BS, I think you're wrong.
Low energy rounds don't usually quickly stop aggressive humans, regardless of the caliber.

High energy rounds usually quickly stop aggressive humans.
When it comes to handguns, I believe than any load/caliber combination that delivers around 400+ ft. lbs. of energy will work.

 

[Ala Tom]

I didn't see anyone mention the .357 Sig. I'll have my .40 shooting .357 Sig in a week. I hope I can handle it as well. Then I'll have a small 40 for CC and a bigger 357 Sig for HD. (Of course if the .357 Sig does not work out I can always go back to the big .40). I used to shoot .357 Mag in a long-barrel revolver many years ago. It had more recoil than the .40.

 

[Buzz9mm]

You think it's BS, I think you're wrong.
Low energy rounds don't usually quickly stop aggressive humans, regardless of the caliber.

High energy rounds usually quickly stop aggressive humans.
When it comes to handguns, I believe than any load/caliber combination that delivers around 400+ ft. lbs. of energy will work.

and I quote ... "I have to add that those that preach Muzzle Energy have no clue what really kills... This is a formula for ammo manufactures to push the latest and greatest, and the clowns that run our state depts. It is complete non-sence!! Good for misleading those that have never shot an animal.

Case in point I once shot a Whitetail doe with a 50 BMG the boolit just passed through its lungs and it raised its head and looked around. It then went back to grazing I thought I had shot high...Several minutes passed before she started acting strange and fell over.

So much for the 12,000 lbs. of muzzle energy pretty obvious that energy has little to do with it

TKO is a much better formula... V x Weight in grs.x Dia./ 7000 (gr. to the lb.)

45acp.. . 800fps x 230gr. x .452 =83168 divided by 7000= a KO value of 11.9

The 357 magnum that was taken to Wyoming and used to kill Grizzly, Moose and Elk when it first came out has a KO of 11.2 with a 158gr. at 1400fps."

I used to shoot .357 Mag in a long-barrel revolver many years ago. It had more recoil than the .40.

Maybe you have a steel .40 or you were using Buffalo Bore ammo in the 357 or something because my .40(Glock 22) felt like it had at least 1.5-2x as much recoil as the 357 I shot. That's with factory WWB 180gr .40 and 158gr 357.

 

[Buzz9mm]

(WARNING: GRAPHIC!!!)For those of you non-believers, here's a post someone made on another forum:(WARNING: GRAPHIC!!!)



"This wound was made by a 45 Colt at 1150 FPS muzzle velocity shooting a flat point hard cast bullet with a .360 meplat
This is what the wound channel calculator predicts
Wound channel diameter of 0.99" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .360", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.

Seems rather realistic to me. Those that do not believe that a wide meplat hard cast bullet leave large wound channels are very naive and inexperienced in my experience

Penetration is your friend and wide meplat hard cast bullet provide penetration and large wound channels in spades."

and another quote:

"No penetration no hole, no hole = no effectiveness
One must consider angles and barriers when deciding on the amount of penetration needed in a lethal confrontation. Penetration is always your friend, lack there of can get you killed."

 

[mljdeckard]

ns66 -You're certainly entitled to hope.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Hey 9mm, what the heck are you yapping on about?

 

[coolluke01]

When you can shoot flat hard cast rounds from a autoloader then we can talk about that.

Revolvers can shoot wadcutters just fine. It's also not likely you'll be getting 1150 out of a .45 ACP in a carry gun! 800-850 will be more like it with a 4" barrel.

Can't argue with shot placement. That's a shot right through the heart.

 

[Buzz9mm]

I don't even care anymore, you guys use whatever you want. I think a picture's worth a thousand words and if that water bottle sized hole in a deer didn't convince you then nothing will. Good luck if you ever get attacked by a fat guy on meth.

 

[Lucifer_Sam]

That little ditty has been pretty thoroughly disproved. If the person claiming to be a medical examiner were real, he would have been performing something like a thousand or more autopsies every year.

If its the same article I'm thinking of, the guy was a forensic anthropologist, I believe, and he was vouched for by several members of a well known forum, including moderators. I think it was 1911forum, but I'm not certain. I read the article a little while back and researched it to check its credibility. There was enough there that I was convinced that it was authentic.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I don't even care anymore, you guys use whatever you want. I think a picture's worth a thousand words and if that water bottle sized hole in a deer didn't convince you then nothing will. Good luck if you ever get attacked by a fat guy on meth.

So that's your claim to fame and what you're all crowing about?. that you saw a picture on the "intermet"? please be gone with you

 

[coolluke01]

Wound channel diameter of 0.99

Water bottle sized hole in a deer

You can try and convince yourself however you want. Just don't expect us to sit back and not point out inconsistencies or faults in your logic.

This is not an emotional decision. There are tons of facts and proofs that show the truth. Twisting facts and misrepresenting info doesn't reveal the truth.
There are many on here that understand a great deal about this and have weighed in. You would be wise to heed it.

Check out a few youtube videos with ballistic gel. Compare the FMJ to the JHP. The results are undeniable. More than enough penetration.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Good luck if you ever get attacked by a fat guy on meth.

If he's a fat guy on meth He just started . I never seen a real meth head who fat.
I carried a 1911 for years in military and as a civ. Today I carry a 9mm . With modren HP I think very little difference .
As for Ball ammo I had case. Robbery subject around 250 lbs and over 6' took 5 hits from a 1911, 230 ball, at approx 5 to 10' 3 went clean thru. He still got away and traveled nearly 15 miles by car to his father house . He was then transported to hospital by father. . He lived and went to jail . All those hits and not 1 hit brain or spine missed heart also. Your living in never never land No pistol is a man stopper unless you hit brain or spine Heart still allows few sec before going down. Any other wounds just a bleed out. . You want real damage Use a Bowie knife . No pistol bullet can do as much damage as a large Bowie thrust in and cutting its way out.

Military now useing HP ammo in some duty stations JAG approved it couple years back.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think that some people think that if they bleat loud enough, you'll agree with them.

 

[leadcounsel]

I agree it's about shot placement more than caliber, assuming you have a minimum acceptable caliber such as 9x19, possibly .380 or 9x18.

You could consider staggering FMJ and HPs in your mags. Assuming you get a few hits you'll get the benefit of the more effective rounds, whether they be FMJ or HP, suited for different purposes (penetration vs. expansion).

I think it's a good practice at times, assuming you may be attacked by a strong pit bull or need to shoot through some cover/concealment (such as a windshield), etc.

 

[918v]

If he's a fat guy on meth He just started . I never seen a real meth head who fat.

I have. Most turds are poly drug users, though. They use meth, heroin, coke, pills, etc. They use meth and some sort of opiate to bring themselves down. You can shoot them full of holes without effect.

 

[Buzz9mm]

I have. Most turds are poly drug users, though. They use meth, heroin, coke, pills, etc. They use meth and some sort of opiate to bring themselves down. You can shoot them full of holes without effect.

That's where Mr. SWC comes in, because there's no way someones gunna keep coming at you with a hole in them like that deer no matter what they're on. Even in the foot or leg that's going through whatever it hits and they're going down.

I think that some people think that if they bleat loud enough, you'll agree with them.

I think that some people think that if they post a smart comment someone cares.

 

[Bozwell]

I think that some people think if they post a smart comment someone cares.

Sadly the illogical, anecdotal comments seem to draw way more attention.