Hollow Point Controversy

[Alaska444]

No one has yet discussed over penetration which is a big part of the reason for HP ammo. If you are going to use some thing that will penetrate, you may be placing innocent folks at risk.

I will continue to use HP ammo and not question it for a minute. The biggest issue with handguns is that they are handguns and almost all of them lack the lethality that folks erroneously attribute to them. If you want lethality, get an AK-47. Otherwise, know and understand the limitations of ALL handguns and live with it. I reserve my 180 gr BB ammo for the woods where you MUST have penetration for the large predators. Even there, take a rifle if you want real woods defense.

 

[Buzz9mm]

Sadly the illogical, anecdotal comments seem to draw way more attention.

I know you are but what am I!?

 

[fastest45ever]

From another thread:"I don't like most service calibers because they have been setup to fulfill a false standard. If you read Urey Patrick, FBI firearms expert and authored internal papers on recommending the 10MM for the FBI, his recommendation is the bare minimum is 12", with 18" of penetration ideal, or there abouts.
He makes the point over and over in his recommendations that under-penetration is what will get you killed.

I do see the merits of ammunition that penetrates only a foot, under ideal conditions. Crowded scenarios, cities, trailer parks, etc.

That said, I prefer not to sacrifice the penetration for expansion. Along with this sacrifice of penetration you have a bullet that dumps a huge percentage of its energy in the initial hit of the target. What if that initial penetration is an arm that is obstructing vital organs, because the person is shooting at me? Tests indicate that skin is difficult to penetrate on exit, and
requires the same amount of energy as is required to penetrate 4-6" of gelatin. In the arm shot scenario, in line with a vital organ, you now have seriously added to the penetration requirement. The bullet must enter the forearm, penetrate through it, how far determined by the angle of the shot, but generally it's going to be going from hand, down through the forearm, and then must expend 4-6" of gelatin energy to exit the arm. It is not unforeseeable that the bullet with 12-14" of penetration has used it's kenetic energy to penetrate, and exit the forearm. Upon hitting the chest
the bullet is already expanded, and has lost 90 percent of it's energy in the forearm, making deep penetration unlikely, and failure to penetrate the chest, and get to any vitals highly likely. Hopefully it takes that arm out of the fight, but it may not take the bad guy out of it. Seems to me a lot of arms got hit in the Platt shooting, and, the bad guys continued shooting, and killing.

I don't find these discussions as a general rule valuable, because factors we can't discuss should really be weighed heavily in your decision on what to carry. Location, situation, law, etc.

That said, as a general rule, I would go with Mr. Patrick's FBI recommendation and pick ammunition that penetrates ideally 18" in gelatin.

I might also suggest that to accomplish the goal, using a flat point, as near as possible, combined with a weight that limits penetration to the 18" range
requires a bit of research.

Almost all the gelatin work is on hollow points that generally never go deeper then 14". FMJ, the standard bullet weights, tend to penetrate in excess of the 18" desired range. A lighter bullet, with a more LFN style nose needs to be researched, and combined with proper velocity to achieve this goal.
I can't think of one FMJ/TC type bullet that is tailored to penetrate to 18".

The benefits of applying this approach to service calibers are
far cheaper ammunition, more practice, accurate, little sacrifice in wound channel, since the bullet velocity will be higher due to the lighter weight of the FMJ/TC, 100% expansion consistency.

I've settled on 260 grains at 800 fps, with a LFN style bullet. That load is tailored to my area, not yours. I use a .45 Colt.
My second shot speed and accuracy are considerably above average with this setup.

YMMV.
fastest45ever is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message"

 

[Buzz9mm]

No one has yet discussed over penetration which is a big part of the reason for HP ammo. If you are going to use some thing that will penetrate, you may be placing innocent folks at risk.

I will continue to use HP ammo and not question it for a minute. The biggest issue with handguns is that they are handguns and almost all of them lack the lethality that folks erroneously attribute to them. If you want lethality, get an AK-47. Otherwise, know and understand the limitations of ALL handguns and live with it. I reserve my 180 gr BB ammo for the woods where you MUST have penetration for the large predators. Even there, take a rifle if you want real woods defense.

I can see the over penetration issue. I'll probably just use hollow points if I can afford them and the semi wadcutters(if they feed) for the woods and penetration needs. I was just trying to point out that hollow points aren't the most destructive ammo like so many people believe.

 

[fastest45ever]

The picture you posted is a combination of a heavy bullet that didn't slow down much through the target, a LFN type bullet, cast hard, and the velocity you can get using my favorite cartridge, 45 Colt.

To get that kind of velocity out of the .45 ACP you have to go to a lighter bullet. a 155 grain Cast LSWC in .45 ACP will go 1135 fps, using Universal.

One of my favorite powders, HS-6 will get you 1126 fps.

45 Super, shootable in strong 1911's with stiffer springs will move a 185 gr. Hdy JSWC at 1120 fps.

I suspect that either of the above would give you a similar wound channel, but without the deep penetration the heavier bullets give you. In other words, you get your cake and eat it too.
You have the reliability, low recoil, wide wound channel flat shooting big bullet, .45, and the lighter weight of the bullet limits penetration.

The down side is the ammo companies aren't going to get rich off you.

The above combinations are laser accurate.

My take was the same as the FBI's expert Urey Patrick:
To really improve the service calibers, and get adequate penetration with hollowpoints, 18" ideally, you need to move up to 10MM, or it's .45 equals, the Colt or the .45 Super. That said, the 45 ACP load at over 1100 fps
is close enough for government work.

Most current HP's are designed to blow up like a parachute, early in the target. Not good for penetration. Solution is either a slower expanding
hollowpoint, with a thicker jacket, ala Hawk bullets, or a much heavier bullet.

If I use hollowpoints, I use either heavy for caliber hollow points, or, normal
weight, at very high velocity, in revolvers.

I also use .45 Super level loads, using 230 grain speer HP's at 1115 fps.
I'm not real sure they penetrate enough, but I'm hoping the velocity will
give me the extra penetration I need.

Just between you and I this is not a popular political position, unless you are in a hunting forum that uses heavy handguns to kill lots of game, and see the actual results, or lack there of, of hollow point bullets.

Hawks' website sums up their experience with hunting handgun bullets:
http://hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

Note how heavy the lightest HP's are, relative to caliber. They also recommend ideally that the HP's be going 1200 fps, hard to accomplish with bullets that weigh that much, in service calibers.

 

[NG VI]

That's where Mr. SWC comes in, because there's no way someones gunna keep coming at you with a hole in them like that deer no matter what they're on. Even in the foot or leg that's going through whatever it hits and they're going down.

That's absurd.

And by the way, the photo you posted was either a .44 Magnum or a hot .45 Colt (I think the latter) hunting load, not anything available in a reasonably sized auto.

 

[NG VI]

I can't think of one FMJ/TC type bullet that is tailored to penetrate to 18".

.32/.380 ACP can probably do within a few inches of that window.

.25 may not reliably make it.

Any of the service calibers will penetrate far more than that unless you use a super lightweight bullet outside of the normal range of weights for the caliber.

 

[Alaska444]

I can see the over penetration issue. I'll probably just use hollow points if I can afford them and the semi wadcutters(if they feed) for the woods and penetration needs. I was just trying to point out that hollow points aren't the most destructive ammo like so many people believe.

The problem is not with HP, it is with hand guns in general. Look at the ballistics of handguns and they just do not have the killing power that most believe that they do have. Rifles are where you enter an entirely different realm.

That explains the adage of what a hand gun is most useful, to be able to fight your way back to your rifle. HP work well for what they are designed. No need at all to disparage them for self defense situations against two legged predators.

 

[fastest45ever]

Any of the service calibers will penetrate far more than that unless you use a super lightweight bullet outside of the normal range of weights for the caliber.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. The lightweight allows pretty high speed, approaching the load used in the picture posted. The high speed, and blunt bullet profile result in a very large wound channel. The lightweight should bring the penetration down into the 18" range.

I'm a 100% positive that the picture round is 260 grain LFN at 1150 fps, in .45 Colt. NOT all that heavy for .45 Colt.
It's been working for a REALLY long time.

 

[Buzz9mm]

@fastest45ever - Hallelujah! You actually go by real world results instead of just shooting into jello! Thank you, sir!

 

[mljdeckard]

You cannot assume that any bullet is going to have any effect on anyone.

 

[Ala Tom]

That hole in the deer seems suspect to me. I would not put a lot of weight on it. First a "45 Colt" is usually a 45 Long Colt which many consider to be a strong revolver load. I've shot both that one and the 45 ACP. The 45 ACP is the most consistent performer. The 45 Long Colt looks big but moves much slower that 1150 fps unless over-loaded dangerously. Most factory loads push it only 800-900 fps with a 225-255 gr bullet. (Don't know what a "meplat" bullet is.)

I found some very good and applicable information for this discussion. For the first time it gives me some info I have faith in. It comes from the book Concealed Handgun Manual by Chris Byrd. He quotes a friend of his, Bud Davison, who has run a Combat Pistol school in Texas for some time.

The first point is that any round from 9 mm up through .45 caliber is good for self defense if you are good enough to be able to put 3 shots in 3 seconds into an 8-inch square at 10 yards (30 ft). That's the kind of accuracy performance I have been getting (or a little better) with my .40. You don't need to shoot the eye out of crow!

The second thing that is important is that many experienced lawmen who shoot semiautos, pack their magazines with a mix of JHP and FMJ. Typically one or two FMJ up front for penetration and then a few JHP. I like the idea of alternating FMJ and JHP, shooting mainly double taps. Check to be sure your ammo works this way with your gun.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I was watching a video earlier and an ER doctor was sharing stories and showing x-rays and one story stood out: A BG was hit twice in the chest with .40SW hollow points and one missed his heart by an inch and he survived!

Because it missed the heart! Even if the bullets hit the lungs, any hunter will tell you that a game animal can run a considerable distance even after being shot through both lungs. Animals typically run, but a human can just as easily continue to fight. I know of an incident where an armed robber was hit near the heart with a .45 JHP and still ran ~300 yards.

 

[j1]

The 45, like the 30 06 can never be a bad idea.

 

[TarDevil]

First a "45 Colt" is usually a 45 Long Colt

It's always the same.

 

[skywalkrNCSU]

@fastest45ever - Hallelujah! You actually go by real world results instead of just shooting into jello! Thank you, sir!

Funny, I posted a while back about real world results from someone who has used their handgun to protect their life on a regular basis (former special forces) and he carries a Glock 19 now and when he was in the middle east. I guess I should repeat what he told me when asked if 9mm wasn't enough, he said, "People who say 9mm doesn't get the job done haven't killed people." Doesn't get more real world than that.

 

[9mmforMe]

I think the OP is concerned about something that will probably never happen (Fat guy on meth). It's most unlikely that any of us will have to pull and use our carry weapon at all, and then to encounter 300 pounds of doped out dude? You could just as easily encounter a 180 pound guy with a robust constitution and no drugs and meet with the same results.

Carry what you like and practice hitting center of mass with a follow up shot disabling the CNS...yeah, the head...maybe this will bring you some comfort.

I carry a 9mm with 147gr HP and feel thats about as good as its gonna get from a handgun for me.

Maybe you're just having fun looking for the holy grail and just havent realized there isnt one yet?

Peace.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

As ever, shot placement doesn't mean squat without proper trajectory and proper penetration. Just because the round might enter over the heart, if the trajectory doesn't carry it toward the heart, then the shot placement was useless. If the round doesn't penetrate to the heart, useless.

 

[Deinhardt]

I don't understand why you would change your caliber, type of ammunition, and bullet weight all because you read one thing and haven't tested anything. I read this stuff all the time, and while it is interesting, there are SO many factors to consider. If you are worried about penetration and or expansion, then I would spend some money on some gel and do tests with your ammunition to determine what you like best. I would NEVER carry wad cutters in a semi automatic for the reason they are more likely to jam in MY experience at the range. Shot placement, shot distance, temperature. Everything matters. I will stick with my big heavy slow bullet.

 

[easyg]

Case in point I once shot a Whitetail doe with a 50 BMG the boolit just passed through its lungs and it raised its head and looked around. It then went back to grazing I thought I had shot high...Several minutes passed before she started acting strange and fell over.

So much for the 12,000 lbs. of muzzle energy pretty obvious that energy has little to do with it

You have just provided a perfect example of why shot placement is most important, and why energy does matter, and also why over-penetration is a bad thing.

The bullet over-penetrated the doe and passed completely through the animal, and failed to dump all of its energy in to the animal.
And a shot through the lungs without hitting the heart is not the best shot placement.

"No penetration no hole, no hole = no effectiveness
One must consider angles and barriers when deciding on the amount of penetration needed in a lethal confrontation. Penetration is always your friend, lack there of can get you killed."

ADEQUATE PENETRATION is your friend: enough penetration to reach vital organs.

OVER PENETRATION is not your friend: penetration completely through the target, failing to release all energy in to the target, and endangering others beyond the target.

Handgun rounds just work better when they stay in the target.
The 9mm FMJ ball ammo is well known for over penetrating people and it is just not as effective as hollow point ammo when it comes to quickly stopping aggressive humans.
This is why cops use hollow point ammo.
It is not so they will not kill the target...after all, look at all the recent police shootings...they practically empty their magazines on the suspect, regardless of what caliber or load they are shooting!


Easy

 

[918v]

This is why cops use hollow point ammo.

Cops use hollow point ammo because their employer wants to minimize liability due to overpenetration and could care less about effectiveness. Case in point, the NYPD which only recently switched to hollow points, some 30 years after the rest of the law enforcement community. Everything is liability driven.

 

[481]

.32/.380 ACP can probably do within a few inches of that window.

.25 may not reliably make it.

Any of the service calibers will penetrate far more than that unless you use a super lightweight bullet outside of the normal range of weights for the caliber.

NGVI,

I agree with you. It's a big problem with the proposed concept-

...FMJ/TC type bullet that is tailored to penetrate to 18"

If you decrease bullet weight while keeping velocities in line with what a service caliber produces (800-1600 fps), there will be issues with operational reliability- semiautos will not reliably cycle once you go below a certain weight if/unless a more suitable propellant can be found.

If the other alternative of velocity reduction is pursued using FMJs (both round nose and TC) of typical weights found their respective service calibers-their velocity must be held to 550 +/- 25 fps to restrict penetration to < 18", again resulting in cycling and reliability issues, not to mention the potential for squibs and jacket stripping in the barrel.

 

[easyg]

Cops use hollow point ammo because their employer wants to minimize liability due to overpenetration and could care less about effectiveness.

This is simply not true.
Look how often cops MISS their target altogether, and how often cops shoot with tons of bystanders around....they are not concerned with liability of over penetration in the least.

Hollow points just work better than FMJ in most instances when using service calibers.
They often expand, causing a larger permanent wound, and they often stay in the target, dumping all their energy in to that target.
The fact that they are less likely to over penetrate and hit a bystander is just icing on the cake.

 

[918v]

Go work for a PD to see what drives their decisions.

 

[easyg]

Keep in mind that hollow point ammo was not designed by police agencies for liability reasons.

Do some research and read up on how hollow point ammo came to be and you will see that police liability was not the driving factor at all.
Hollow point ammo is the result of the ever ongoing search for a more effective bullet, nothing more and nothing less.



Easy