Hollow Point Controversy

[R.W.Dale]

Poke someone in the chest with your finger...it didn't really harm them.
Kick someone in the chest with all your might and speed...you might break their ribs or even cause them to internal damage.
Why?
The kick delivered more energy to their body.

I once saw a guy get hit in the head by a golf ball...there was no penetration and no permanent wound channel.
But it dropped the guy, knocking him out.
He recovered and the doctor told him the head CT showed there was no skull fracture but he did have a tiny bleed inside.
What knocked him out?
What caused the bleed?

Energy delivered to the guy's head.

Would getting hit with a ping pong ball have caused the same effect on the guy?
No.
Why?
Because the ping pong ball would not have delivered the same energy to the guy's head.






So what's your point?
Yeah, misses suck and could hit an unintended target.
But why would you want to actually increase the odds of a HIT passing through your target and hitting an unintended target?

Handgun rounds do not pack this much energy. Sorry but they don't.

Folks wearing armor continue to fight after being hit COM all the time. Hitting a vest is 100% energy transfer.


Shoot a coffee can full of sand sometime with your favorite carry load and note how far its moved.


HANDGUN BULLETS work by shooting holes in things. If that bullet fails to go where it should and put that hole where it needs to go NO amount of energy transfer will make up for that. HP's simply make you a bigger hole albeit a shallower one.


Not till you get up to high velocity 2500fps + rifles does shock effect matter. And then its not the "opposite but equal reaction" law in play but rather that the bullet is moving so fast it outruns the tissues ability to get pushed aside so its crushed and torn aside. Not entirely unlike driving your car through a large shallow puddle at speed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive..

Why do you hate hardball?

 

[easyg]

Fastest, you do realize that the temporary wound channel doesn't do anything more than bruise, right? It might sting a bit more, but what's going to stop the target is the permanent wound channel. Cavitation trauma doesn't really start to matter until you exceed the elastic point of the tissue - something you won't see in 9, .40, .45, .357 (sig or magnum), or 10mm, regardless of whether HP or FMJ.

The truth is that we don't know the effect of the temporary wound channel on the human body.

Another truth is that not all human tissues are equal in elasticity.

And then there is the effect of the temporary wound channel in conjunction with fluid in the body.

I once radiographed a suicide patient...the wound channel could clearly be seen, on the radiograph, from the right side of the skull (just above the ear) through the brain to the left side of the skull.
The bullet was still inside the skull.
But what really surprised me was that the right orbit was fractured (not in the path of the bullet) and the TOP of the skull was fractured (not in the path of the bullet).
The woman's head (bagged to preserve evidence) felt like a sack of broken dishes.
The handgun used was a .38 Special snubbie.
The bullet it self didn't break the top of the skull.
It could have only been the temporary wound channel.

 

[Skribs]

Not till you get up to high velocity 2500fps + rifles does shock effect matter. And then its not the "opposite but equal reaction" law in play but rather that the bullet is moving so fast it outruns the tissues ability to get pushed aside so its crushed and torn aside. Not entirely unlike driving your car through a large shallow puddle at speed.

Well, all bullets will push tissue aside, the thing is at lower velocities it just stretches back. Human tissue is elastic (which can clearly be seen by lightly tapping your arm and watching the tissue move back into place). The higher velocities stretch the tissue far enough that it will actually go beyond the elastic point. The "crush" term is usually used for the bullet crushing tissue as it passes, which is what the pistol round does.

Although all I'm arguing with you on is semantics. You're right in that energy transfer only matters if there is a significant enough velocity for the energy to do the wounding. Otherwise it's just what does the bullet crush?

 

[R.W.Dale]

The handgun used was a .38 Special snubbie.
The bullet it self didn't break the top of the skull.
It could have only been the temporary wound channel.

Two observations

The head is a largely sealed container full of uncompressable fluid.


With a contact shot that 17,000 psi worth of superheated gas is going to get pumped into the body right behind the bullet.

 

[easyg]

Energy always matters, at all velocities.
How much it matters is the only thing that is debatable.

Higher energy handgun rounds perform better than lower energy handgun rounds.

Human tissue is elastic

To be more accurate...

Some human tissue is rather elastic.
And some human tissue is somewhat elastic.
And some human tissue is not very elastic at all.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Energy always matters, at all velocities.
How much it matters is the only thing that is debatable.

Higher energy handgun rounds perform better than lower energy handgun rounds

Only typically because they can drive more bullet faster and deeper and or get more expansion in the process

Its ALL about the bullet. That velocity-energy is merely the fuel they use to do what they do. It does not do any appreciable damage by itself at handgun speeds

 

[easyg]

It does not do any appreciable damage by itself at handgun speeds

On this we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[fastest45ever]

Fastest,

So if I understand you...

Would you recommend a wadcutter for self defense?...I'm thinking in a revolver.

Now in a semi, a truncated cone?

It seems, by your argument, that using a hollowpoint is just asking for trouble unless you are able to hit someone in flesh devoid of bony structures.

And these would be driven at greater velocities?

I currently use 147gr WWB personal defense in my 9mm.

It depends on the specific caliber. What people seem to forget about when they increase caliber is the geometric increase in powder space inside the cylinder we call a shell casing. Due to this, as you increase caliber what you are capable of shooting, and how fast, changes.

All I'm trying to get at is a few ignored, rather specific facts.
If I am legally justified in shooting, as a general rule, the bad guy has to be pointing a gun at me. This means my shot to get to COM, if shooting for lungs, heart, or spine is going to have to go through his arms.
I believe this is going to require a bullet that retains energy, and goes to the 18" Urey Patrick recommends in gelatin, ala FBI, or more.

All of the guys that have ever attacked me, and the one with a gun, were huge, well over 275 pounds, and big. Our prison system also has done an excellent job of creating big, strong, criminals as well.
I would consider 9mm and . 45 ACP marginal with HP's for game this size. None of the 'data' collected on shootings has figured in the size factor. Another major concern. In fact I'm not sure there is any real data concerning shootings, other then war, and that's with hardball.

What I recommend is looking at the caliber you are using, and see if it's capable of getting 18" of penetration in the first place. If not, use something else.
If it is, find a bullet that expands as much as possible, but still goes that 18",
and does it EVERYTIME.

If possible, always choose a bullet with a larger meplat, and flat nose, over a rounded bullet. If you can find a hollow point that penetrates 18" in gelatin, in the caliber you are using, use it. If not, be aware of the fact that the 1 foot of penetration your HP gives you might be used up in going through the bad person's arms, so change your target.

Be aware of the type of scenario you are likely to encounter. My bad guys are most likely very big, and in gangs, so I am likely to face at least 2-3 bad guys.

Specific:WWB HP's at 147 grains. I use the HST's. Everytime you start thinking you have a magic bullet, pull out a ruler, put it on your arms, and extend your arms toward a target, with a gun in your hand.
Realize how little penetration 14" really is, and how long your arms are. If you hit the guys arms you MIGHT stop him from shooting at you, with that arm. He's still in the fight.

Also watch how hps act in gelatin. All the energy and damage is done generally in the first 4-6". Look at brassfetcher for this. Put that ruler up to your chest, and realize that if you miss the heart, your best chance of stopping the guy is the spine. Realize that some people have very deep chests, and that bullet might not get through the spine bones to the
nerves, since it's lost most of it's power in the front half of penetration.
Also at the end of their wound channel hollow points aren't really that good at smashing anything, since they have mushroomed, slowed down, and lack the profile for penetrating bone.

I'm not saying don't use hollow points. I AM saying tailor the hollow point to the caliber, use a generally heavier hollow point then most recommend. Also they need to be moving fast, 1200-1500 fps ideally.

If you can't get that, have a look at another bullet design.

In a revolver I use .45 Colt, with 260 grain LFN style bullets at 800 fps.
I am VERY fast, I can point shoot VERY well. It penetrates, and I hit what I aim at.

For other stuff I use the loads listed in my previous post.

 

[Bozwell]

I've stayed out of this for the most part, because no one's going to convince anyone else on this subject, but there are other things to consider beyond just penetration. For one, you recommended some great articles fastest. But, to be accurate, they reemphasize the 12" penetration minimum and suggest up to 18" would be preferable. I think you'll find that most quality HP rounds in service calibers are in this range of penetration, satisfying the penetration criteria. The same article suggests that, given sufficient penetration (i.e., 12"-18"), a larger bullet is better. One can conclude, based on that, that a hollow-point achieving the required penetration would be better at incapacitating a target than an equally sized FMJ round.

Capacity, recoil, gun selection (including size) all play a role as well. 260 or 300 grain bullets may be great if you can carry around a large revolver, but that's not the easiest thing to conceal on your person. It's also less than ideal for home defense, simply because there are better options in other types of firearms (i.e., shotguns and rifles).

Finally, your capacity is limited to roughly half a dozen rounds in such a gun. Judging statistics for how often police hit their intended target (various departments range from 30-35%), accuracy under fire or in a high stress situation is questionable at best. Extrapolating from that, if you're facing your 2-3 fictional assailants, you may have to reload by the time you get to the third guy. Not a good thing.

Now, that's all speculative and I'm not at all suggesting you're wrong to use that gun or that you shouldn't continue using it. Not at all. You can shoot it quickly and accurate, and that's excellent. I'm simply saying there are other factors worth considering and it really comes down to what an individual is comfortable with. Personally, I think there are lots of viable options out there, but there's no perfect round and nothing is guaranteed to incapacitate a given target.

I do think it's nonsense though when people come out suggesting hollow points are a scam and are just a way for companies to get your money. There are plenty of quality HP rounds in 9mm, .40s&w and other service calibers that, time and again, achieve the suggested penetration and expand reliably. Ignoring that and bashing those rounds because they're not ideal hunting rounds is just silly.

 

[mljdeckard]

No. As a general rule, you must be in legitimate fear of serious bodily injury or death. This does not equal someone pointing a gun at you. this is a POSSIBILITY, not a FACT.

While you WANT to get COM hits, in reality, you will be doing well to get them in the 8 ring. We teach hitting REPEATEDLY IF POSSIBLE, because you can't ASSUME your first bullet will do the job, no matter what kind of bullet you are using. The bullets you are arguing for will not do this EVERTYIME. NO bullet is ever guaranteed to do ANYTHING EVERYTIME. We are talking about degrees of likelihood.

ALL service pistol calibers, no matter WHAT bullet you are using, are marginal in their power range for the job. Switching to SWC bullets doesn't change this.

 

[Skribs]

Fastest45, I will agree with you that if you want 18" or more of penetration, you're pretty much limitted to non-expanding rounds or very powerful loads. I do not agree that 18" is the minimum required. I stand by a 12" minimum, and will point out that most rounds that get 12" in "bare gel" will get 16" with 4 layers of denim - they expand less, and thus penetrate farther.

As to "all the energy and damage" in ballistics gel...the majority of that is what we call the temporary wound channel. The actual permanent damage of a handgun round is going to be the channel it creates, which is going to be as wide as the round is. Ballistics gel is misleading to those who don't understand the relationship between velocity and cavitation.

1200-1500 FPS is awefully fast for any service cartridge, especially if you're going with the heavier end. I will agree with you, though. Companies like Hornady like to go light-and-fast, which is better for follow up shots but worse for penetration (and they often fail to reach 12" in gel). I use 147 gr. in 9mm or 180 gr. in .40 - I want something that's going to reach deep. But I feel the JHPs with 12" bare, 16" in denim will reach deep enough.

I also disagree with your position that the BG has to be pointing a gun at you in order for you to legally shoot, although in your jurisdiction it might be different.

 

[Bozwell]

If I am legally justified in shooting, as a general rule, the bad guy has to be pointing a gun at me.

Perhaps he's not from the US and lives somewhere with very restrictive self-defense laws? If he is in the US, he should check again, because that's incorrect for all 50 states.

 

[481]

I also disagree with your position that the BG has to be pointing a gun at you in order for you to legally shoot, although in your jurisdiction it might be different.

Yep, all sorts of other things that present a lethal threat- knives, ball bats, many tools (screw-drivers, hammers, carpet knives, etc.), crowbars, etc. Under the right conditions, you may have to shoot an assailant bearing one of those to save your life.

 

[Skribs]

Yep, all sorts of other things that present a lethal threat- knives, ball bats, many tools (screw-drivers, hammers, carpet knives, etc.), crowbars, etc. Under the right conditions, you may have to shoot an assailant bearing one of those to save your life.

Even an unarmed assailant if there's a disparity of force. There's also the situation of an assailant that is not attacking you, but attacking a friend or family member.

 

[fastest45ever]

If I am legally justified in shooting, as a general rule, the bad guy has to be pointing a gun at me.

PLEASE read carefully.

I know the law, my local DA, at this point every judge in our county courts, many attorneys, and a few Federal judges as well. I know my area, I know who I am, and for ME, that statement is correct.

There are a few exceptions, but, that is a pretty good rule for ME>

Some of you that think you are justified in other situations had better know your local law, jury pool, etc. before making such broad statements.

Shawn Dodson has an excellent website on the subject, and one of his statements goes something like if you pull a gun, much less shoot one,
YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL.

I do think it's nonsense though when people come out suggesting hollow points are a scam and are just a way for companies to get your money.

I found this amusing. The major component in the bullet is LEAD. Cheap, plentiful, LEAD. The major feature for HP's, and their origin, is that they are a VERY accurate bullet design. So are flat points. For SD applications, a thin jacket with pure lead works as good, or better then a HP.
When you think about it, you are sacrificing penetration by taking the lead out to make the hollow point. You are taking bullet material out, making a lighter, less penetrating bullet. If you use a flat point you get expansion that's just as good, more reliable, and a heavier bullet, that may penetrate that extra couple inches I am after.

After reloading for a LONG time, it never ceases to amaze me how much people will pay for something that costs so little to produce.

How many ammunition companies are non-profits? Yes, they want your money.

9mmforMe:

I don't want to get this too far side tracked.

I just remembered one of the original functions for a HP bullet design. The bullet was originally designed to be hyper-accurate. The HP makes the bullet
tail heavy, and this works very well, accuracy wise. It also lightens the bullet
so you can increase velocity. It is also an inherently accurate bullet profile.

The owner of Hi-vel used silhouette bullets, HP's with a very thick jacket that did not expand out of a .44 Magnum, at around 1900 fps. Considering he is one of the worlds' best shots in his day, and on a good day would put 6 shots on a playing card at 100 yards, it worked well for him. He used the
bullet design to hit his target, and the bullets penetrate straight, deep, and well, even though the bullets were only 185 grains. He used that load on dangerous game, and expanding bullets on lesser game.
Excellent setup since they both shot to the same point of aim.

The point I'm trying to make is a HP type bullet can be effective even if it doesn't expand, due to being lighter, very accurate, and faster. In service calibers it might be better to use such a bullet.

 

[Bobson]

A BG was hit twice in the chest with .40SW hollow points and one missed his heart by an inch and he survived! He didn't go into much detail, but regardless of the type of hollow point and the situation, I wound not expect someone to survive that.

You read a story about a person surviving a gunshot wound that failed to contact a single vital organ, and it made you feel the need to switch from .40S&W to .45 ACP? You missed the moral by a mile, bro. Its not about caliber, expansion, or penetration. Its about shot placement.

You may as well be surprised that people survive when bullets miss their heads by an inch. BUT IT WAS A HOLLOW POINT.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I found this amusing. The major component in the bullet is LEAD. Cheap, plentiful, LEAD. The major feature for HP's, and their origin, is that they are a VERY accurate bullet design. So are flat points. For SD applications, a thin jacket with pure lead works as good, or better then a HP. When you think about it, you are sacrificing penetration by taking the lead out to make the hollow point. You are taking bullet material out, making a lighter, less penetrating bullet. If you use a flat point you get expansion that's just as good, more reliable, and a heavier bullet, that may penetrate that extra couple inches I am after.

After reloading for a LONG time, it never ceases to amaze me how much people will pay for something that costs so little to produce.

How many ammunition companies are non-profits? Yes, they want your money.

I'm no physicist, but I'm sure its a safe assumption that a 165gr fmj bullet weighs the same as a 165gr hollow point bullet. I'll even go out on a limb and say a 165gr rock weighs the same as the 165gr fmj and 165gr hp bullets.

 

[IdahoLT1]

You read a story about a person surviving a gunshot wound that failed to contact a single vital organ, and it made you feel the need to switch from .40S&W to .45 ACP? You missed the moral by a mile, bro. Its not about caliber, expansion, or penetration. Its about shot placement.

You may as well be surprised that people survive when bullets miss their heads by an inch. BUT IT WAS A HOLLOW POINT.

Agreed.

Even then, people have been hit in vitals and survived. As mentioned earlier, insurgents have been hit COM with 50bmg rounds and still fired at our troops. People have survived being shot point blank in the head and survived.

 

[IdahoLT1]

OP: If you want max penetration, man up and upgrade to the 10mm.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY&desktop_uri=/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY&gl=US

 

[Bozwell]

PLEASE read carefully.

I know the law, my local DA, at this point every judge in our county courts, many attorneys, and a few Federal judges as well. I know my area, I know who I am, and for ME, that statement is correct.

There are a few exceptions, but, that is a pretty good rule for ME>

Some of you that think you are justified in other situations had better know your local law, jury pool, etc. before making such broad statements.

Shawn Dodson has an excellent website on the subject, and one of his statements goes something like if you pull a gun, much less shoot one,
YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL.

Believe what you want, but if you live in the U.S., I'll stand by my opinion that you're wrong. No state has a law that says someone must be pointing a gun at you before you can use lethal force. Such a reading of the law is nonsense if only for the reason that it ignores other causes of serious bodily injury. That said, if you can point me to that statute, I'll certainly believe you. Actually, I'd love to see it. Please do tell.

How many ammunition companies are non-profits? Yes, they want your money.

If your point is that companies and corporations are after profit, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. That said, you're just pointing out the obvious. I said that the notion that hollow points are merely a scam is nonsense. A scam would imply that hollowpoints are a fraud or a trick. Rather, they're just a tool that may or may not be appropriate for a given task. Do ammo companies charge a premium for them? Sure. But a higher price in and of itself does not make the product a scam.

Also, while you point out that HP's, when expanded, give up some penetration, that's not an issue so long as the HP still achieves 12-18" of penetration. If, as your own articles point out, a HP achieves sufficient penetration, it's going to do better than the equivalent FMJ provided it expands. Logic would indicate that it would perform substantially the same as the equivalent FMJ is it does not expand. As such, sacrificing some penetration is not in and of itself a problem - you need to consider all the factors.

 

[NG VI]

For SD applications, a thin jacket with pure lead works as good, or better then a HP.
When you think about it, you are sacrificing penetration by taking the lead out to make the hollow point. You are taking bullet material out, making a lighter, less penetrating bullet. If you use a flat point you get expansion that's just as good, more reliable, and a heavier bullet, that may penetrate that extra couple inches I am after.

A 124, 147, 165, 180, 185, or 230 grain bullet is going to have the same amount of material in it regardless of nose configuration, JHP bullets may be longer than an equivalent weight FMJ, but they are certainly not lighter than a same weight FMJ. That's a pretty ridiculous point to try to make, by the way.

You may wonder why so many of us have decided that some of our time, some of our life, is worth spending correcting your statements, and it's because a good deal of what you are saying is misleading and has no relationship with reality. Lots of people, probably more than are actually members, come here to do research and try to learn what they can about the topic of firearms. In this section, the reason is largely to find good information on defense-oriented pistols and ammunition.

To have you parading around claiming things as factually inaccurate as JHP/FMJ bullets rated at the same weight actually do not weigh the same, that a fully jacketed service pistol bullet will expand, or is more suitable for defense against other human beings, is not acceptable to myself and apparently a few other posters here as well.

The least I can do for the people who don't know and are coming here for help and guidance, is painstakingly correct every fallacy you put up, refute every absurdity, put everything possible in the right context (1900 feet per second from a service pistol? Really?) if it's been removed from it's logical environment, and note what kernels of truth are in this burrito of mixed up hyper-focused information you keep serving up.

 

[NG VI]

I just want to reiterate that no service caliber FMJ bullet is ging to expand in a human target.

Maybe if driven fast, directly into the heaviest of bone structures, but their's nothing in the chest that will make a service weight, service velocity pistol bullet expand.

Soft point bullets in service calibers won't even do any consistent expanding from the service calibers.

To make something work the way Fastest45ever is describing, you would need to be using a big bore hunting caliber, which next to nobody would or does ever use for defense, because of the host of real issues with them.

 

[Skribs]

I found this amusing. The major component in the bullet is LEAD. Cheap, plentiful, LEAD. The major feature for HP's, and their origin, is that they are a VERY accurate bullet design. So are flat points. For SD applications, a thin jacket with pure lead works as good, or better then a HP.
When you think about it, you are sacrificing penetration by taking the lead out to make the hollow point. You are taking bullet material out, making a lighter, less penetrating bullet. If you use a flat point you get expansion that's just as good, more reliable, and a heavier bullet, that may penetrate that extra couple inches I am after.

Umm...just wow. As was mentioned earlier, a 147 gr HP is the same as a 147 gr FN or RN FMJ bullet. You're not losing weight by going for a JHP, unless you choose a 115 gr over 147 gr (but that's adding in other factors).

 

[rajb123]

....former representative gifford's appearance at the DNC convention this week was a very moving moment and also it was politically charged.

As you recall, she was shot once in the head with a 9mm by a gun-crazed madman..... and it is too bad she or others in the group had no way to defend themselves.

Anyway, it is a sad reminder that the caliber used in this terrible crime does have limitations.