Hollow Point Controversy

[Tim the student]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive.

It was....interesting to read.

 

[Alaska444]

This is simply not true.
Look how often cops MISS their target altogether, and how often cops shoot with tons of bystanders around....they are not concerned with liability of over penetration in the least.

Hollow points just work better than FMJ in most instances when using service calibers.
They often expand, causing a larger permanent wound, and they often stay in the target, dumping all their energy in to that target.
The fact that they are less likely to over penetrate and hit a bystander is just icing on the cake.

That may or not be true for PD's, but for self defense as individuals, over penetration is a huge liability issue. I have no union or million dollar defense fund. HP's make sense for self defense.

HP's also make sense at placing more energy into the target instead of failing to expend the energy by passing through. In addition, an expanded HP creates a larger wound channel. The issue becomes how powerful the caliber is that you use, not whether you use a HP.

Full power 125 gr JHP in a .357 is considered by many the best self defense round for a hand gun. Certainly that is Mas Ayoobs opinion.

 

[fastest45ever]

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The forum guidelines are pretty clear on such discussions. Understanding the origins, or not understanding the origins of hollow point bullets, and their adaption for LEO work is not relevant to this thread. That discussion is pretty much off limits, since LEO discussions should be in favor of LEO.
Also LEO are elected officials, at least the chiefs, and decision making groups, as a general rule. Therefore their decisions are political, and outside the areas prescribed for discussion here.

After looking into it a bit, it looks like most hollow points penetrate ~12" in a perfect world if they don't hit anything on the way to vitals. I don't know about you, but I don't like depending on a perfect world, especially if the BG is a 300lb dude on drugs. Sure hollow points expand(possibly), and cause more damage, but that means nothing if they don't hit vitals. From now on I'll be using wadcutters of some sort in my carry gun. They get better penetration and they do enough damage as it is that they don't need expansion.

Sure a few stories aren't that big of a deal and they're heresay, but they got me nervous enough that I'm switching to a .45. I know that most of the time a 9mm is plenty, but I'll take all the advantage I can get to give me a bigger margin of error. It seems like the biggest difference between the 9mm and the .40SW or bigger is that the 9mm can't break bones(usually) and deflects easier and the bigger ones can break bones and don't deflect(as easily). Different strokes for different folks, but I thought I would share that with you guys.

To the OP:
Hawk bullets sums up the advantages and disadvantages of HP's that work, those that don't, and non-expanding bullets.
http://hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

First off loose the generalities about what caliber can do what. There is a huge range of HP's available in each caliber, and they have different characteristics. You need to tailor your load to what your situation is.

the heavier the better, the faster the better, and the flatter the better.

It's not that simple. First in .45 ACP, and an auto loader, the round has to
chamber 100%. Generally 45 ACP wadcutters have to have the gun tailored to take them to do that.
Truncated cones tend to work much better, but also need to be checked.
The problem with heavier bullets in .45 ACP is even the average load, 230 grains, is not going that fast, and it's certainly NOT flat.
They also over penetrate, since the combination of slow speed, and heavy bullet helps them penetrate like crazy. Over penetration here is for me, 18" or more, ala Urey Patricks' FBI study.
Therefore you are going to need a lighter, TC type bullet, like the very common 185 grain target bullets. You can get these going around 1100 fps, as I posted earlier, or set your gun up for .45 Super, and gain more velocity.
Likewise the 155 grain bullets.
You will need to test these in your gun, make sure they function, both feeding and cycling. You'll also need to test them for penetration depth.

The ONLY complaint about using soft lead bullets even in 260 grains and .45 Colt, is the bullet opens up so much it can be bounced off course by bone, and not penetrate straight, or deep enough.

Finding a HP that doesn't do that usually requires either a slow expanding bullet, in service calibers, or one using a thicker jacket.

Another concern is Hawk suggests that with their .025" bullets they be moving at LEAST 1200 fps to get reliable, consistent expansion. It's kind of hard, or impossible with service calibers to move a hollow point that is heavy enough to penetrate 18" fast enough to reliably expand.

Your concept is sound, however you are going to have to test, or find tests on penetration with light, non-expanding bullets in .45. Good luck with that.
I have yet to see any real tests in gelatin on penetration with this type of bullet. If it's any comfort, such bullets, at high speed DO create a wound channel that is as big as the one created by hollow points, just longer, and not as much of an energy dump in the first 6-8 inches.

 

[9mmforMe]

As ever, shot placement doesn't mean squat without proper trajectory and proper penetration. Just because the round might enter over the heart, if the trajectory doesn't carry it toward the heart, then the shot placement was useless. If the round doesn't penetrate to the heart, useless.

I think we were assuming that the person with the weapon was not using a sling shot...9mm and .45s were mentioned so penetration will most likely occur with the vast majority of bullet configurations available.

If a shot is delivered to the head or spine the chances greatly increase that a stop will occur. Additionally, you do not have to hit the heart for success, there are many blood vessels present, that if destoyed, will facilitate diabling an individual.

Shot placement is essential...why? Because it's all we have...it doesn't mean squat? That statement is patently false. would you have us shoot in the air and hope it scares away the intended target?

 

[peacebutready]

Something to be kept in mind is that ammo manufacturers make a lot of money off the "latest and greatest" ammo. They have plenty of incentive to scheme in sophisticated ways to make all believe h.p.'s are better.

A couple of things I read: L.E. had to take out a man that had tattooed on his body: Live by the gun, die by the gun. It took a lot of rounds. I remember reading the claim that none of the h.p.'s penetrated more than 2". Some, many, or all may have hit a car door first. Not sure. I'd have to look for the article again.

Another suspect shot by an LEO with h.p.'s in a .45 later said the shots were like "bee stings". Hopefully, the ammo was 185gr non-bonded.

Recently, I read about a hog hunter who hunts with a 9mm carbine. He claimed when using the WWB 147gr h.p.'s (older stuff), he never saw any expansion in recovered bullets. As a result, he uses 147gr flat nose. I think this is the same load the San Diego Dept. used in the past. I think they were happy with the load but average autopsy research showed penetration of about 12, 13, or 14 inches (don't recall) on average. However, they discarded counting shots were bone was hit. In some of the examples, the round was just below the skin on the other side.

Maybe a good question to throw out is: If it hits bone, how far will it then penetrate?

 

[fastest45ever]

Another is how many inches in gelatin=bullet exiting through the offside skin?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

They often expand, causing a larger permanent wound, and they often stay in the target, dumping all their energy in to that target.

Please explain to us why "dumping all their energy into the target" is important?

The fact that they are less likely to over penetrate and hit a bystander is just icing on the cake.

This belief assumes a solid center-mass hit yet many hits are along the periphery of the body, in which the bullet has a short penetration path through the body and exits. This circumstance comprises the overwhelming majority of cases of classic "over-penetration".

 

[mljdeckard]

It's not about energy dump. It's about cavity trauma.

Look. ALL service pistol rounds SUCK. This is why we spend so much time, money, and research on making better ones. The most likely outcome of a bad guy being hit with any single pistol bullet is that they will RUN away. This is why we place so much emphasis on getting as many good hits as possible, to multiply the odds that you will stop the bad guy from doing what he is doing.

I think that the real-life benefit of hollow-points is sometimes exaggerated. The difference between different premium brands is CERTAINLY exaggerated. To see a clear benefit, I think you would have to hold the very bottom performers, like a 115 gr FMJ 9mm, (Yes, the one our troops carry,) To a .45 ACP Federal HST, which routinely expands to the size of a quarter. Otherwise, comparisons between calibers and brands is pretty much a wash. HOWEVER COMMA, It IS an advantage. When you are fighting for your life, you will never, EVER wish you had a bullet that was less effective. You may only get ONE shot. You may not get a great hit. (Statistics say you WON'T.) You need every possible advantage you can get.

I have done it before, so I won't do it now, but when you do the actual math on the cm3 of tissue damage a JHP pistol bullet will do, as compared to a jacketed or non-expanding bullet, it may not seem like much UNTIL you start to add up the difference from repeated hits. It adds up QUICK. The way pistols stop is by damaging something inside the bad guy he needs to keep moving. Muscle, nerve or bone tissue damage, and or rapid blood loss. The more trauma your bullet causes, the higher the likelihood that you will make him stop doing what he is doing. There is no such thing as over-penetration. I want all I can get. If a bullet stops inside the target, that means it failed to make a full hole, front-to-back. Service pistol rounds are designed to both expand AND penetrate at least 12" in most circumstances. If one hits something the prevents it from going all the way through, (like a heavy bone,) this means it is doing DAMAGE to that bone. This is a GOOD thing. But I still want more trauma until the bad guy stops coming at me.

In using non-expanding ammunition, you are limiting the tissue damage that will occur, and thereby prolonging the time the bad guy will be attacking you, and increasing the odds you will get hurt or killed. This isn't complicated. The Utah State big game hunting proclamation requires that you use a centerfire weapon, capable of firing expanding bullets. This is to ensure you stop that animal as quickly and effectively as possible. The same theory applies here.

 

[fastest45ever]

Which wound channel would you rather have?
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/12 Gauge Foster Slug.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/45 ACP WW STHP.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/357 Magnum.jpg

These three wound cavities, show the difference in wound dynamics.

The slug creates just as much, if not more damage, by creating a longer temporary channel, though not as wide as the initial cavity caused by the pistol rounds.

My concern is the second half of the pistol rounds penetration. The radical diminishing of the temporary cavity is due to a great reduction in speed
caused by the bullet loosing a LOT of velocity.

VELOCITY CAUSES BOTH TEMPORARY CAVITY, AND PERMANENT CAVITY
FOR THE WOUND CHANNEL.

Also note how the JSP type bullet works just fine, and, how neither pistol round exceeds 14" of penetration.

To illustrate the difficulty of getting 18" of penetration keep in mind the slug, 17.6 MM, also only goes 14", and it weighs 437 grains.!

 

[mljdeckard]

There is no guarantee of any kind that any given bullet WILL do anything. I can't even view those photos at work, but it doesn't even matter. There is no way of knowing what you see is even labeled correctly, and just because you THINK you see a result in a photo, it doesn't mean in any way that this is what you get in real life. The smart money, is, was, and continues to be, that premium JHP bullets are the most likely way to stop an attacker. You do what you want.

 

[fastest45ever]

REALLY?

I can present a bunch of guys that actually shoot living animals that swear
HP's are inconsistent, fail to penetrate enough, and are far inferior to hard cast, LFN type bullets.

Hawk explains, or defines, the horns of the dilemma concerning HP bullets:

http://hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

I maintain that with service calibers you are pretty firmly in category two on the diagram.
There is another group of hunters that swear by Hawk's hollow and flat point bullets. The major difference between Hawks' bullets and the major ammo companies are the following:
Hawk suggests a minimum of 1200 fps for their thin jacketed HP's to work correctly. This rules out most service calibers.
Second the hollow points they build are all heavy for caliber. The reason
is the weight of the bullet is necessary to maintain velocity through the target as the bullet expands. It also keeps the bullet going in the direction
you want it to.
It also maintains enough velocity through the target to create a long temporary wound channel, and enough energy to exit, leaving a sizeable hole to bleed out.

To have an effective HP in a service caliber is nearly impossible because
they lack adequate velocity and bullet weight to work right on actual
targets.

The links I posted to above are not pictures, but drawings of gelatin results from Shawn Dodson's website.

Some people here have actually done a LOT more research on this subject
then just buying the proverbial party line from the ammunition companies who's one goal is turning pure lead into gold. They do this by lots of advertizing and making the bullets look flashy in gelatin.

P.T. Barnum's philosophy is alive and well with Hollow point buyers.

Smart buyers actually look at the physics involved, parameters, and information available to establish the credibility of the claims from the advertizing departments.

The smarter buyers actually buy and test their hps on game animals, or do their own gelatin tests, ala Mr. Dodson.

Buying hollow point self-defense loads right now is pretty much like playing craps, with worse odds: you put your money down, and you take your chances.

Using them is worse. Please Mr. Badguy, don't be pointing a gun at me so if I have to shoot, I might hit your arm.
Oh, in my state that is pretty much the ONLY legally justified reason for the use of a gun and deadly force.


So: arms protect vitals, HP's don't penetrate arms with enough energy to get to vitals. Those fancy bullets don't look so good now, do they?

Don't get me wrong: I have hollow point bullets in certain calibers and weights. Generally I go heavy for caliber, and fast. Sometimes I go light for caliber, in big guns, and very fast. Match the round to the game.

 

[Skribs]

Fastest, you do realize that the temporary wound channel doesn't do anything more than bruise, right? It might sting a bit more, but what's going to stop the target is the permanent wound channel. Cavitation trauma doesn't really start to matter until you exceed the elastic point of the tissue - something you won't see in 9, .40, .45, .357 (sig or magnum), or 10mm, regardless of whether HP or FMJ.

I'm also curious as to how hollowpoints that failed to expand also failed to penetrate. Generally, they fail to expand because they clog up, that failure to expand results in greater sectional density and greater penetration. Essentially, a 9mm FMJ is the same as a 9mm JHP that fails to expand.

The issue of barrier penetration presents a different issue than most CCW need to deal with. Barrier penetration is generally considered an offensive task, and I agree would be better suited by FMJ rounds. If you choose to plan for those situations and use FMJ go ahead. I'm going to plan for the other 99% and use JHP.

Using them is worse. Please Mr. Badguy, don't be pointing a gun at me so if I have to shoot, I might hit your arm.
Oh, in my state that is pretty much the ONLY legally justified reason for the use of a gun and deadly force.

The FBI 12" minimum penetration requirement assumes odd angles and shooting through arms. Many hollowpoints meet this standard. Your post comes off as a baseless rant that suggests JHPs are likely to bounce off the subject. The only time that will happen is with body armor, which FMJs are just as likely to bounce off of.

 

[fastest45ever]

The FBI minimum is 12", and is a gelatin test. READ Urey Patricks' document on penetration and caliber recommendation, not to mention the wounding aspects.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Patricks' recommendation is for 18" of penetration, because he knows that breaking through skin with a partially expanded bullet takes the equal of 4-6" of gelatin penetration.

Perm wound channel does increase with velocity, at handgun velocities.
Also bullet type, or design is critical. A FMJ does not equal a truncated cone or LFN.

My post is not a rant. It's the culmination of years of physical research with different types of bullet designs, coupled with my friend's experiences
and observations, not to mention a lot of reading expert opinions, combined to come to a conclusion that there is more then one, simple way of looking at this very complicated issue.

It is irritating when in the face of a complex discussion, with people who have done tons of research on the subject, Shawn Dodson for example, that people attempt to bulldoze, and fail to actually address the issues presented.

Instead they regurgitate marketing fluff designed to sell ammunition.

"I'm also curious as to how hollowpoints that failed to expand also failed to penetrate. Generally, they fail to expand because they clog up, that failure to expand results in greater sectional density and greater penetration. Essentially, a 9mm FMJ is the same as a 9mm JHP that fails to expand."

The above statement makes little sense. FMJ generally refers to a round nose bullet. Most HP's are designed like a truncated cone bullet. Their is a considerable difference in bullet performance between a RN and a truncated cone, or LFN. A JHP that fails to expand is likely to penetrate very straight, and deep. Lee Jurras was a major believer/tester prover of truncated cone type bullets in pistols.

I'm also curious how you got the essence of that statement?
Where from?

The only barrier I'm discussing is the badguy pointing a gun at me, and my little 9MM HP having to breach his arms, break bones, exit his arms, and reenter his chest with enough velocity to again break through bones, and reach vitals. That bullet has to maintain a straight path through all that, as well, as it expands to it's pretty little flower pedal design.

I'm also saying that in most states the threat of deadly force is required to justify the use of a pistol in self-defense.

 

[powell&hyde]

fastest45ever

I call that BS, since calibration methods vary slightly, the calibration method used by the INS National Firearms Unit is fairly typical. It requires a velocity of 183 ± 3 m/s (600 ± 10 f/s), and a BB penetration between 8.3 and 9.5 cm (3.25 to 3.75 inches).

Now that exceeds your source of 4" to 6".

 

[NG VI]

Their is a considerable difference in bullet performance between a RN and a truncated cone

I've never read anything that suggests that a round nose or flat point FMJ bullet makes any difference at all in wound profile or what happens in the target at all.

Have you got any source for that?

 

[fastest45ever]

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

Among others.

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

Try reading Fackler's article to get a better handle on what creates wound channel.

Also a fairly common thread is with RN bullets they tend to Yaw, or be bumped off the target line easily.

A flatter, wider nose tends to decrease this tendency. A flat nose bullet can also expand, creating an even wider wound channel.

I am suggesting that HP's need to be designed to penetrate a bit deeper before the bullet expands. It is not at all uncommon for the bullet to first have to
go through an arm, or arms, or other form of barrier before striking the bad guys COM.

 

[9mmforMe]

Fastest,

So if I understand you...

Would you recommend a wadcutter for self defense?...I'm thinking in a revolver.

Now in a semi, a truncated cone?

It seems, by your argument, that using a hollowpoint is just asking for trouble unless you are able to hit someone in flesh devoid of bony structures.

And these would be driven at greater velocities?

I currently use 147gr WWB personal defense in my 9mm.

Thanks.

 

[9mmforMe]

Ok...missed your post right before mine. I get your drift.

I met Dr. Fackler while shooting at Gilbert's Small Arms in Lorton VA. He seemed pretty stand-offish...not a big deal, just an observation.

 

[fastest45ever]

There is a trend for the hunting boys to use full caliber wadcutters that are lighter then normal for caliber. Tim Sundles at Buffalobore, and ex-NY LEO Carillo champion this kind of bullet for service calibers.

The idea being you have a full caliber wadcutter, for maximum wound channel. By making it light for caliber, it may even expand a little bit, provided you can get the velocity high enough, 1350 fps being ideal.
The velocity and bullet profile create a large wound channel. The lighter weight limits the tendency to over-penetrate. It is as reliable as any bullet can be, since it has nearly zero moving parts.

For example

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=283

I am not adverse to hollow points, just within the parameters I've determined, not the ammunition industry. I do use hollowpoints.
230 grain Speers at 1120 fps in .45 Super. 275 grains in .45 Colt and .475
Linebaugh, at 1350 and 1575 fps respectively.
300 and 350 grain Hawk HP's in .500 Linebaugh at around 1600 fps.

I have a bunch of Federal HST 147 grains I got cheap, and I have one magazine with those, the other with 147 grain Federal Flat point truncated cones.

I'm particularly impressed with Barnes XPB's. They open up well, penetrate
deeply, and if they weren't near the price of gold, I'd love to shoot them all the time.

I am not adverse to flat points, since they tend to work like hollow points, just moving the point of expansion further into the target.

Along with arms, you have two areas that cause one shot stops:
Brain and spine. If the bad guy is attacking you, the bullet has to go through arms and through the torso to get to the spine. I don't want the bullet totally expanded and moving slowly as it tries to get through the bones in the spine, to the spinal cord.

 

[NG VI]

I'm sorry, but flat point jacketed service pistol bullets are not going to expand. They may deform a little if they hit heavy bone, like any other bullet, but they aren't going to expand any better or more frequently than any other FMJ service pistol bullet.

 

[481]

I am not adverse to flat points, since they tend to work like hollow points, just moving the point of expansion further into the target.

Simply ain't true. Flat points do not work like hollow points.

I have to agree with NGVI. Flat points rarely, if ever, expand. If they hit bone, they may deform slightly, but it takes heavy bone to make that happen.

 

[Skribs]

I'd also like to point out that "what hunters use" doesn't necessarily mean it's what works best on people. What works for varmint hunters or bird hunters a meth addict is likely to ignore, and what works for big game hunters is likely to overemphasize penetration compared with what is needed for a person. I never see threads saying ".25 ACP or .22 LR, which one works best for Grizzly Bear defense?"

 

[ns66]

to be more effective you want to create hydraulic shock, speed is the key, FMJ actually is good imo

 

[easyg]

Please explain to us why "dumping all their energy into the target" is important?

Poke someone in the chest with your finger...it didn't really harm them.
Kick someone in the chest with all your might and speed...you might break their ribs or even cause them to internal damage.
Why?
The kick delivered more energy to their body.

I once saw a guy get hit in the head by a golf ball...there was no penetration and no permanent wound channel.
But it dropped the guy, knocking him out.
He recovered and the doctor told him the head CT showed there was no skull fracture but he did have a tiny bleed inside.
What knocked him out?
What caused the bleed?

Energy delivered to the guy's head.

Would getting hit with a ping pong ball have caused the same effect on the guy?
No.
Why?
Because the ping pong ball would not have delivered the same energy to the guy's head.

The fact that they are less likely to over penetrate and hit a bystander is just icing on the cake.

This belief assumes a solid center-mass hit yet many hits are along the periphery of the body, in which the bullet has a short penetration path through the body and exits. This circumstance comprises the overwhelming majority of cases of classic "over-penetration".

So what's your point?
Yeah, misses suck and could hit an unintended target.
But why would you want to actually increase the odds of a HIT passing through your target and hitting an unintended target?

 

[mljdeckard]

Fastest, you can maintain whatever you want to. But your thinking is not matching up with the best information available on shot stopping data.