Accidental discharge 1911.....Help...Killed the stuffed bear on the bed.

[allaroundhunter]

Care to elaborate on that? Im pretty sure that if you keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot, neither would be "safer" than the other.

TAKtical, any gun that does not have a manual safety and instead uses a "safety" such as a Glocks will be more prone to a Negligent Discharge. Just as one example, if someone is using a poorly fitting holster and inserts their Glock and a piece of leather gets into the trigger guard, the gun will discharge (and yes, it has happened). If the same situation happens with a 1911, the manual safety will keep the trigger from being pulled.

It isn't just a finger that can cause an ND.

 

[1911Tuner]

ALL fell squarely on me........I BLEW it ! But........except for the "teddy"......nobody was hurt.......and I learned immensley from my mistake

As a matter of SOP, whenever somebody screws up...I ask: "What did you learn?"

As long as you learned something from it, and nobody got hurt...you can put that experience in the "win" box.

if someone is using a poorly fitting holster and inserts their Glock and a piece of leather gets into the trigger guard, the gun will discharge (and yes, it has happened). If the same situation happens with a 1911, the manual safety will keep the trigger from being pulled.

And that is precisely why the US Cavalry requested the manual safety on the 1911.

 

[1911Tuner]

ALL fell squarely on me........I BLEW it ! But........except for the "teddy"......nobody was hurt.......and I learned immensley from my mistake

As a matter of SOP, whenever somebody screws up...I ask: "What did you learn?"

As long as you learned something from it, and nobody got hurt...you can put that experience in the "win" box.

if someone is using a poorly fitting holster and inserts their Glock and a piece of leather gets into the trigger guard, the gun will discharge (and yes, it has happened). If the same situation happens with a 1911, the manual safety will keep the trigger from being pulled.

And that is precisely why the US Cavalry requested the manual safety on the 1911.

 

[ugaarguy]

Actually, as 1911Tuner and others have patiently pointed out to me before, no, the 1911 was not actually designed to be carried "Condition 1." In fact, the original version didn't even have a thumb safety.

Coming hot on the heels of the single-action revolver days, thumb-cocking was an acceptable method back in the day, and the inertial firing pin design meant that hammer down on a loaded chamber was perfectly safe.

And to be truly accurate you can't exclude the fact that those early pistols had a much wider hammer spur with heavy checerking, and a recurve shape to facilitate manual cocking and decocking. Modern 1911 hammers just aren't made for that. Here's an EMC wide spur hammer that's like the old GI hammers for visual reference - http://item.brownells.com/groups/emc-1911-auto-hammers/1911-auto-hammers-wide-spur-hammer-blued.htm

 

[1911Tuner]

And to be truly accurate you can't exclude the fact that those early pistols had a much wider hammer spur with heavy checerking, and a recurve shape to facilitate manual cocking and decocking. Modern 1911 hammers just aren't made for that.

And yet, they still have checkering, or serrations that are even more aggressive than the older checkering patterns. People get into trouble when lowering hammers mostly because they don't know how...or they get in a rush...or they get careless with muzzle discipline...or all the above.

 

[kyletx1911]

As a matter of SOP, whenever somebody screws up...I ask: "What did you learn?"

As long as you learned something from it, and nobody got hurt...you can put that experience in the "win" box.



And that is precisely why the US Cavalry requested the manual safety on the 1911.

my lesson learned never drop hammer on a live rd in a 1911 with oily fingers and your wife
on the other side of the wall int he flight path. i blew it just like you.
just like you blessed no one was hurt.

Respect is earned and given, i now respect the power of slipping, that can cause a nd.
and earned that what can happen in the blink of a eye. AFTER I carry a 1911 everyday but i respect it everyday You sir have fessed up NOW CARRY ON

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by TAKtical: Im pretty sure that if you keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot, neither would be "safer" than the other.

That would be true except for the issue of interference of shirt-tails or other materials when re-holstering, or the problem of faulty holsters. Both have been problematical.

But it has ben demonstrated that even people who are trained to keep their fingers off the trigger and are convinced that they do often touch the trigger under stress, perhaps to reassure themselves of its location.

 

[Drail]

Every time you handle a gun, Murphy is right behind you looking for an opening. You have to constantly think about what could possibly go wrong. Murphy runs the Universe. (no disrespect intended to anyone's religion) Forgetting about Murphy for just one second can ruin your day.

 

[The M]

I thank all of you for your input , advice , concern , and education. I have leared ALOT just on this one subject. I called it an accidental discharge , but understand now it IS a NEGLIGENT discharge. I dont blame the 1911.....I blame myself ! I firmly believe the 1911 IS to be "understood" as far as safety and features.....much more than any other firearm that I have used to date. I blame nothing other than myself , as I made several assumptions that were incorrect as to what it was I was doing during handling. I will feel bad about this for some time , but it has made me realize that complete attention , respect and responsibility.......ALL fell squarely on me........I BLEW it ! But........except for the "teddy"......nobody was hurt.......and I learned immensley from my mistake!

I like your attitude - it's nice to see someone not trying to place blame somewhere else .

I'm in the camp that has never lowered the hammer on a live round. Too much risk as most of us agree on. The only time my hammer is down is after a shot with a snap cap during failures training. I've never had an issue with years of cocked and locked carrying. Keep up the good research and training!

 

[Steve C]

Coming from a background of SA and DA revolvers, cocking and decocking with my thumb has been second nature. My first 1911 was a Colt Combat Commander and still never had a problem lowering the hammer but it was a 2 handed operation with the hammer being held and lowered with the right thumb while the left held the grip safety down. You can put your off hand index finger between the hammer and the firing pin to prevent the sudden release of the hammer from discharging the gun and remove it as the hammer advances to the finger. I used this method at one time but only use it now on occasions where my hands may be a bit slippery.

One needs to remember to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when doing this though, just in case. In times of whimsey when I carry or sit one of my 1911s or similar platform handguns next to the bed for defense it is cocked and locked but usually keep them loaded with hammer down in storage mode.

I do have a couple other semi auto handguns, Browning HP, early Taurus PT92, that occasionally need to have the hammer lowered on a live round using the trigger to release the hammer and a couple P38/P1 Walthers that I always lower the hammer with the thumb when using their safety lever to drop the hammer as their older safety system has been known to fail.

Lowering the hammer safely doesn't require any great skill and the safety part should be mostly pointing the muzzle in a safe direction. If a person is new to a gun that needs to be decocked in such a way, they should do a little practice with the gun unloaded to perfect method and gain confidence before trying it with a loaded pistol.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Steve C: I do have a couple other semi auto handguns...that occasionally need to have the hammer lowered on a live round using the trigger to release the hammer....

If a person is new to a gun that needs to be decocked in such a way, they should....

Why would any semi-automatic firearm with a safety "need" to have the hammer lowered on a live round?

 

[GLOOB]

TAKtical, any gun that does not have a manual safety and instead uses a "safety" such as a Glocks will be more prone to a Negligent Discharge. Just as one example, if someone is using a poorly fitting holster and inserts their Glock and a piece of leather gets into the trigger guard, the gun will discharge (and yes, it has happened). If the same situation happens with a 1911, the manual safety will keep the trigger from being pulled.

My 4 cents is that you're leaving out the human part of the equation. Anytime you add more events and options to a procedure, you either slow it down or make it more prone to error. One or the other.

So yeah, a Glock is more dangerous to holster. But it's also simpler, so you can focus on doing it safely (and slowly - most of the time there are no points for how fast you can get the gun back IN the holster). A 1911 is potentially more error prone to draw and fire. Google Tex Grebner. He focused on speed, rather than safety. Automatically chaining a sequence of events, such as flipping off a safety, then putting your finger on the trigger, in order to precipitate the proper "end result" in a prespecified minimal amount of time, makes things dangerous. Call it a holster design problem all you want, but he was basically training himself to automatically bypass the inherent safety of finger off the trigger by relying on a manual safety and "chaining" a sequence of events in a pre-determined amount of time (that works when things go right), and we ALL as humans do the same thing without deliberate thought and practice. At least with a Glock, the number of manipulations and the proper practice is simplified.

I don't care how many times I've done it. I always pause and consciously think about it when I flip on a safety, otherwise I won't remember if I had done it or not! No different that being conscious of the trigger when reholstering.

To call one safer than the other is making too many assumptions about the person and methods. Both can be safe, both can be dangerous. Glocks have the bad rep because they're used by so many police. And that after they transitioned from revolvers (with which they also had tons of ND's.)

Anyhow, any gun with an EXTERNAL HAMMER is more prone to ND than any striker-fired gun. Polls and posts like this show that without a doubt, manipulating an external hammer is one of the #1 causes of ND's. I've never seen data that suggest a manual safety reduces ND's. For every Glock leg/shirttail/holster malfunction, there's untold number of ND's that DIDN'T happen because the Glock manual of arms is so simple. If you compare Glock leg ND's to "decocking incidents" there's no comparison. The latter is by far more prevalent. And the former is not limited to guns without a manual safety.

 

[1911Tuner]

A 1911 is potentially more error prone to draw and fire. Google Tex Grebner.

If you're gonna use that as an example, you should probably include the holster in that little debacle. The firs one of those things I tried, it gave me the creepin' jeebies because of the release mechanism. I knew that it would just be a matter of time before somebody plugged themselves.

To call one safer than the other is making too many assumptions about the person and methods.

Is gun. Gun not safe. It's not a toy and it's not your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and it should be regarded as hostile any time your hand is on it.

Tunefucious say:

If one desires to master fast-draw, one is advised to practice with honorable pistol empty...many, many times.

 

[GLOOB]

If you're gonna use that as an example, you should probably include the holster in that little debacle.

If the holster is so dangerous, it must be a freaking miracle that the first and only widely reported incident happened years after they hit the market with a vengeance - and with a 1911, at that.

I reckon less than 5% of those kydex Blackhawk holsters are sold for 1911's, and over 50% for polymer striker-fired handguns without a safety.

I also reckon someone has shot himself drawing and firing out of a retention strap holster, before.

I agree, is gun. Gun not safe. Is holster. Not a replacement for safe handling.

 

[Steve C]

Why would any semi-automatic firearm with a safety "need" to have the hammer lowered on a live round?

When the safety doesn't drop the hammer.

Take the older model Taurus PT92 for example. To carry it ready in DA mode you needed to put a round in the chamber and then lower the hammer, otherwise you where left with cocked and locked mode. Personally I carry DA handguns for defense 99% of the time, more revolver like.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by GlOOB: Anyhow, any gun with an EXTERNAL HAMMER is more prone to ND than any striker-fired gun. Polls and posts like this show that without a doubt, manipulating an external hammer is one of the #1 causes of ND's.

I do not put that much stock in polls, but the answer is, do not manipulate the hammer!

The old War Department and DoD manuals caution against carrying the Model 1911, Model 1911A1, and .45 General Officers' Model with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. That's because it is not a good idea.

For every Glock leg/shirttail/holster malfunction, there's untold number of ND's that DIDN'T happen because the Glock manual of arms is so simple.

How does one record events that do not happen?

I've never seen data that suggest a manual safety reduces ND's.

A major local PD has found that when persons gain control of the compact "1911" pistols carried for backup cocked and locked, there is less chance of the perp being able to fire them than when striker fired pistols are snatched. Of course, that's a little different from an ND, but the principle is the same.

If you compare Glock leg ND's to "decocking incidents" there's no comparison.

Are you referring to historical occurrence, frequency, or what?

In Sixguns by Keith, Elmer extolled the safety features of the S&W Model 39. There were two: (1) the DA trigger and hammer drop safety that kept the shooters mits off the hammer; and (2), the magazine disconnect. He predicted that the accidents that occurred with the Colt Automatic would be reduced. I was impressed, and bought one.

But I somehow missed the simple truths that (1) the answer was to not fiddle with the hammer in the first place, and (2) that DA first pull had its disadvantages.

 

[GLOOB]

Are you referring to historical occurrence, frequency, or what?

frequency of occurrence, as indicated by very long threads on this forum where poster's have described their ND's.

The numbers ARE enough to be statistically significant. "Hammer slipped" is one of the leading causes of ND's. Though probably not a leading cause of injury, there are a lot of holes in ceilings and bedroom walls thanks to improper decocking procedures or lapses of concentration. I grant that Glock leg is a much worse outcome than putting a hole in a teddy bear.

How does one record events that do not happen?

You don't. That's what makes them "untold."

The only numbers or statistics I've found are from forum threads/polls. And the numbers suggest that lack of manual safety has very little impact on ND's. If you don't put any stock in those numbers, then find some better ones and share, please.

A major local PD has found that when persons gain control of the compact "1911" pistols carried for backup cocked and locked, there is less chance of the perp being able to fire them than when striker fired pistols are snatched. Of course, that's a little different from an ND, but the principle is the same.

There's a very big difference, here. A manual safety on a handgun is indisputably a very good way to make a gun NOT fire when you actually wanted it to. That's good if you are disarmed, of course. But the only numbers I have seen show that the overwhelming majority of ND's happen because someone pulled the trigger deliberately, expecting either a click or a safe lowering of the hammer, but getting a boom instead. The manual safety has no bearing on these ND's, because once you figure out the safety is on, you take it off and pull the trigger again.

 

[Fishslayer]

And its a big one ! I mean like 3' tall.......and not only that it is a Christmas bear....lol In the spare bedroom of course....lol

So.... as one with actual experience...

How do you rate the .45ACP cartridge as a bear defence round?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by GLOOB:

"Hammer slipped" is one of the leading causes of ND's.

But the only numbers I have seen show that the overwhelming majority of ND's happen because someone pulled the trigger deliberately, expecting either a click or a safe lowerring of the hammer, but getting a boom instead.

Which it it?

The manual safety has no bearing on these ND's, because once you figure out the safety is on, you take it off and pull the trigger again.

Just how would that constitute a negligent discharge?

 

[1911Tuner]

If the holster is so dangerous, it must be a freaking miracle that the first and only widely reported incident happened years after they hit the market with a vengeance - and with a 1911, at that.

No. I said that if you're going to use Grebner's leg shot on the draw as an example how dangerous the 1911 is on the draw, you should include the holster...because that was a major factor. Did the holster fail to release because Grebner fouled the draw...or because the release malfunctioned? Probably the former, but we really have no way of knowing. The fact stands that it was involved.

If drawing and reholstering the 1911 was that inherently dangerous, it would likely have disappeared long ago...but many hundreds of thousands of people have drawn and reholstered the pistol without incident.

 

[The M]

No. I said that if you're going to use Grebner's leg shot on the draw as an example how dangerous the 1911 is on the draw, you should include the holster...because that was a major factor. Did the holster fail to release because Grebner fouled the draw...or because the release malfunctioned? Probably the former, but we really have no way of knowing. The fact stands that it was involved.

If drawing and reholstering the 1911 was that inherently dangerous, it would likely have disappeared long ago...but many hundreds of thousands of people have drawn and reholstered the pistol without incident.

As I recall, Grebner stated that he pressed the holster release with his right index finger and continued to hold finger pressure during the draw. Then as the gun left the holster his finger slipped onto the trigger, firing the gun.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Dicipline and practice........

Accidents will still happen. Muzzle direction, focus, and treating every gun as if it were loaded are key aspects of being around guns. Gun model and caliber don't really matter in this regard, unless the integrity and quality of the gun is in question.

Every type of handgun can be carried safely, or unsafely. Take the time to figure out the best carry method for you that will reduce the chance of accidents. This means proper holster, chambered or unchambered, revolver or semi, location on the body for carry, circumstances of carry....... These things can change depending on the situation.

One other item to consider: Everybody has their own quirks, ticks, and habits. I think a lot of people ignore this factor when choosing a gun and carry method. Think about your own habits, and if you know you have a tendency or habit that may create an unsafe situation based on how you carry, then think about changing your carry method. If you can't get around that concern by carrying different, then maybe a change in weapon is needed.

Keep practicing, stay safe, and remember that 1911's have been carried for defense for 101 years. If you look at how many ND's there have been in that time frame, and how many ND's that resulted in an injury as compared to say "the number of carry days" in total, I'd bet the statistics would reflect that 1911's are very safe. Three safety mechanisns (counting the trigger), even when carried cocked and locked versus only one on other guns..... that kind of speaks for itself.

I'm glad no one got hurt OP. Don't beat yourself up over it. Accidents happen. Just learn from it and don't do it again.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Personally I will not manually lower the hammer on a gun with a round in the chamber. I see it as an unnecessary risk and an accident waiting to happen. While my HK45 has a decocker I dont trust it. Yes as I've been told time and again its safe to do it but I just dont feel comfortable allowing the hammer to drop on a chambered round if I'm not actually in the process of shooting the firearm. Decocking or manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round is something I wont do. Yes you may say its silly but its just how I feel about things. That said the weekend is coming up so have a fun and safe weekend folks. I will as I have a pistol match Saturday and a Trap match on Sunday so I will be one happy camper.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Queen_of_Thunder: Personally I will not manually lower the hammer on a gun with a round in the chamber. I see it as an unnecessary risk and an accident waiting to happen.

That's generally pretty good advice, but if one is in the field with a Marlin or Winchester lever action rifle without one of the new safeties, an old hammer-type slide action rifle, or a Winchester Model 97 shotgun, it would seem prudent to lower the hammer when one is not about to shoot.

Also, it may be necessary to lower the hammer on a DA revolver at the range.

One must exercise extreme care.

 

[awfulkanawful]

Fishslayer....lol

I wouldnt recommend a .45 as a very good bear stopping round ! Hes still sitting on the bed waiting to attack......with a silly grin on his face .