Are conceal carry permit holders as well trained with their sidearm as the cops?

[Rob G]

Having actually been through the police academy in PA and qualified as an "expert" (score 296 out of 300) I can tell you that there's no special training there. We could get to do some things that aren't normally allowed on most ranges like rapid fire, moving and shooting, room entry, etc... But I don't think that any of that stuff made me a better shooter. It was alot of fun though.

I'd say the average officer is no better or worse than the average citizen. It all comes down to how much range time you put in.

 

[geekWithA.45]

It all comes down to how much range time you put in.

Ayep.

Pure n simple.

You've either put enough lead downrange to achieve a critical mass of skill, or you haven't.

 

[Wopasaurus]

2 Cops taught my CCW class. They talked about how most of the cops they work with are horrible shots. They only qualify once or twice a year, whenever they have to to keep their jobs.

A good deal of cops don't even know as much about the guns they carry as many of us on here.

 

[ilbob]

IMO the level of skill required to be able to effectively use a firearm to defend one's self is a lot less than the antis would like to have the public at large believe.

people have defended themselves with baseball bats with no training at all. It is mostly a mind set.

 

[mrkwns]

Civilians with concealed weapons permits are not sworn police officers and the rationale on which the CWP is based has nothing to do with the protection of other people. It is based exclusively on their right to defend their own lives and bodies against superior force. The CWP confers no rights on them except to carry a concealed weapon on their person.

Exactly....

 

[jimbob86]

Col. Cooper covered this a long while ago...... nothing has changed since.

It is the dedicated amatuer that strives for excellence. The public servant is a hireling that will settle for "close enough for government work".

The only question is, How many LEOs vs. how many CCW permit holders are "dedicated".

In my own experience, there are LEOs that shoot at the IDPA mini-matches I do. SOME are excellent. SOME are not. At least they are interested enough to be there. The same can be said for CHP permit holders I see there.

 

[jimbob86]

The other question is where do folks get the idea that just because someone has a uniform and a badge, that makes them some kind of firearms expert? And assume the converse is true: Anyone without a badge is an inept klutz that will shoot themselves or innocents when the flag flies?

 

[MT GUNNY]

Maybe those of you, who are a seinior member of a respectible range should invite the Local HP and City cops to these matches.

Just maybe we could change the minds of future sheriffs, buy showing
that we are responsible citizens.

Dont make it a competition between cops and civilians inter mix the teams of shooters.

IMHO

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

IDPA is fun but it's not the best for real world training and tactics. In IDPA courses you know where the targets are and you just blindly run to the next spot. Do that in a real situation and see how much you enjoy being shot.

Whether you are a cop or not doesn't have anything to do with how well you can shoot. It's up to you either way to seek training and practice. My department doesn't have the money to give me all the ammo I need. I end up paying for at least half of my training ammo each month.

Also, firearms are a very small part of police work (although very important). I am involved in alot more hand to hand combat situations than draw downs. I train almost daily in mixed martial arts as a result. Again, just because I'm a cop doesn't make me a better fighter than anyone else. My training makes me better.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

IDPA is fun but it's not the best for real world training and tactics. In IDPA courses you know where the targets are and you just blindly run to the next spot. Do that in a real situation and see how much you enjoy being shot.

Whether you are a cop or not doesn't have anything to do with how well you can shoot. It's up to you either way to seek training and practice. My department doesn't have the money to give me all the ammo I need. I end up paying for at least half of my training ammo each month.

Also, firearms are a very small part of police work (although very important). I am involved in alot more hand to hand combat situations than draw downs. I train almost daily in mixed martial arts as a result. Again, just because I'm a cop doesn't make me a better fighter than anyone else. My training makes me better.

 

[Zundfolge]

One of the side issues is hubris.

When I took my CCW class, we had everything from experienced competition shooters, to people that the first time they ever touched a gun...ANY GUN...was in the class.

None of the newbies had any illusions that they were experts (or even competent) but every LEO I've shot with that I felt was a below par shooter thought of himself as an expert marksman just because he "was trained at the academy".

So there are probably more cops running around with delusions of adequacy (when it comes to shooting) than CHL holders. Thinking you are better than you are is dangerous.

Keep in mind that weapons training is almost non-existent in many police forces ... the job of police officer is also only probably 1%-2% about shooting skills since (much like most CHL holders) most cops will never fire their weapon in the line of duty.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Edit

 

[K3]

Hats off to DougW, you hit the nail on the head! I shoot a lot of Ipsc, IDPA, and 3 guns I do pretty well but, then again papers dont shoot back. I rest my case.

I'm willing to wager that the vast majority of LEOs have never had lead coming their way either, so essentially there is no difference between LEOs and CHLs in this regard.

As stated above, it comes down to practice, practice, practice.

As for me, I don't have a CHL yet, but that will change this summer. I have no illusions as to my abilities with a pistol. I'm not impressed with myself, but I am getting better.

 

[jackstinson]

I know that I shoot a whole lot more than my two LEO relatives...probably a hundred times more. That doesn't automatically make me as well-trained in law enforcement firearm techniques though. I practice for personal defense and I shoot for fun.
But from what I have observed at the range, more than a few of CHL holders shooting beside me need more training. Or perhaps simply to spend more time at home learning about their firearms? When a permit holder there asks me how to disassemble the gun that he is shooting, he needs more training. When a permit holder there has a jam and I have to help him get his magazine out to clear it because he's waving the thing around, he needs more training.
It is not difficult in Ohio to get a concealed carry permit. Most courses run you through 50 shots at the end, some may even keep score. Becoming proficient with your firearm is up to you though. While certainly not the case with this forum's members, I have to be honest and say that the average concealed carry permit holder around here is probably not as well-trained as the average LEO.
Jack

 

[Erik]

Now that I've thought about it I should amend my answer to:

Most are not, many are, and some are more so.

 

[Group9]

Being an LEO has no bearing on whether you enjoy guns on the side or can shoot well. I would wager that the same percentage of non LEOs that like guns and can shoot well applies to LEOs as well. If 2% of America were gun enthusiasts and shot regularly, I would bet it would be no more than 5% within the LEO community as well.

LEO's have lots of tools and skills that they have to be proficient with, but not an expert at, to do their job. Fierams are one of those things. For example:

1. I am proficient with a handgun, but I know that people,( including other LEOs), who are really into target shooting are going to be better shots than me.
2. I am proficient at hand to hand combat, but I know that people who are really into martial arts or other organized fighting, are going to be be better fighters than me.
3. I am proficient at interviewing and interrogations, but there are going to be people who are really into interviewing and interrogations, who constantly seek additional training, and who do it more, who are going to be better than me.
4. I am proficient at wiretapping, using cell phones to track people, and GPS tracking, and night vision gear, but I know that tech agents, and electronics buffs are going to know more about it than me.
5 I am proficient at surveillance, but I know that people who have been on dedicated surveillance teams for years, whether LEO's or private detectives, are going to be better at it than me.
6. I am proficient at breaching doors, and conducting high risk entries and warrant services, but I know that people who are on dedicated SWAT teams, or who have been doing it in Iraq several times a day for the last year, are going to be better at it than me.
7. I am proficient at high speed driving and emergency vehicle maneuvers and operations, but I know a stunt driver, or professional race car driver, is going to be a lot better at it than me.
8. I am proficient at the identification of different drugs, but any laboratory chemist is going to be better at it than me.
9. I am proficient at crime scene investigation, but any person whose only job is crime scene processing and forensic examinations, is going to be better at it than me.
10. I have received training in traumatic first aid, and am proficient in it, but any EMT is going to have more knowledge than I do.
11. I am familiar with helicopter operations, and know the range and capabilities of several different helicopters, MH-60, SH-50, Longrangers, A-Stars, etc., but any helicopter pilot is going to know a whole lot more than me.

And, on and on. To people who like shooting guns, their image of an LEO's job is focused on his gun. The reality is that it is one tool in a very large toolbox, and that while individual officers or agents are often expert in the use of one or two of those tools, no one is an expert in the use of them all.

 

[Andrew S]

You can't really say because not all police train the same and not all permit holders train the same.

All you can do is compare the minimum qualification of each and express your own experience. If you train more than and perform better than the minimum qualification of a police officer you can say that you are as well trained as a police officer.

 

[Ske1etor]

I have never seen more than two cars parked at our local Parish Sheriffs Office Shooting Range at one time... unless the LEO's were qualifying...

Although, I have noticed that most of the LEO's that come into the private range where I shoot are more "Specialists" Narcotics, UC's and SWAT guys... Nearly everyone that came in that I had the privilege of shooting with were better than the average range guy.

 

[SeanSw]

Here's a quick question for LEOs....

If you wish to practice outside of qualifying, how many of your shooting expenses do they cover?

 

[rbernie]

Are conceal carry permit holders as well trained with their sidearm as the cops?

Some of us may outshoot our LEO bretheren, but most CHL holders are not like us.

I suspect strongly that the average non-gunnie LEO still gets more range time than the average CHL holder, based both upon the 'range time' apathy among the majority of CHL holders and based on the fact that LEOs have a more frequent need to re-qual than do CHL holders.

 

[The Canuck]

I was doing my FTN drills a month or so ago and a couple of Alberta Sherrif's Deputies came in to practice (it was getting close to qualification time) and I was running a sequence of Mozambique drills (two to the chest one to the head) and they thought I was showing off for thier benefit. So after they got going they decided to try what I was doing. Three rapid fire shots and.... not a mark on the deputy's paper. So I finished my drills and went to weak handed shooting and (as usual) did only mediocre. They try the same thing and have about the same success I had, then came the head-shots only string and they decided maybe they should just go back to C-O-M shots...

In the same vein, I have had RCMP come in and just rip ragged holes in the kill zones with rapid fire at 15m (about 16 yd.).

 

[sargespd]

Police are a public servant, working for the public, payed for by the public.
A public servant is held to the standards the public decides is appropriate.
People should never forget that. The police only have the powers you give to them, which you as society can take away as well, or demand dismissal of individuals not meeting those standards.

This modern concept of asking the police for something is backwards. It is the police who are supposed to ask the public for permission, and the public who can cut thier funding or do away with them altogether or replace them if desired.


A private citizen is a private individual, they are not a public servant subject to standards as a term of employment.

People are going so far from the ideology that has been the foundation of the US and its freedoms it is scary. Police forces are payed for by your taxes, represent you and your city, and are employed to hold individuals localy accountable to your expectations which are legislated through law and ordinances.
That means they are merely supposed to be an overseer enforcing the will of the people, which must be in accordance with the Constitution (which protects the minority from tyranny by the majority.) Once anyone asks them for permission for anything you are treading on dangerous ground, and sliding towards a loss of freedom and liberty.

If people start to allow that to be seen as the norm, well that is the fate which they are choosing. Make sure you are conscious of that choice.

Nice completely off topic rant. Nobody said anything about asking the cops for permission for anything. As far as sheriff's approving CCW permits, well, that would be one of the locally enacted laws you refer to, wouldn't it? Personally, I carry a concealed pistol when I am off duty, not to fight crime, but primarily to protect those with whom I share a last name, and I support and encourage those who choose to do the same, cop or not. For those who are interested, I agree that most who carry, cop or not, are probably not as well trained as they could be. I know I am not, though I do more than most. I shoot regularly between qualifications, and have competed, though in the Ohio Police and Fire Games. Fortunately this meant I only had to outshoot other cops, not some of the highly proficient non-cops I know!

 

[UglyAllDay]

"Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person."-from way back in post #11.

The problem I see with this quote is simply the situations were a police officer may have to use his/her firearm has to be magnified a large amount over the number of situations the average citizen will have to use his. Your average citizen will not be responding to calls were more often than not are deemed "dangerous" enough to call PD. I feel that any individual, LEO or not, who ejoys shooting will probably do so on their own accord and be better at handling their firearm. On the same note police do have to qualify to meet or exceed a standard which makes them competent to use their weapon when/if called to do so.

 

[UglyAllDay]

Thanks Group9 post #66-excellent point.

 

[Cosmoline]

There are still a fair number of LEO's who take their training seriously and keep in practice. But I think it's VERY safe to say that virtually all CCW holders are better trained than your average POLICE CHIEF. Big city chiefs are not cops, they're barely even human. They are political animals, usually with deep roots in the local Democratic machine.