MachIVshooter
Member
For a new shooter a Ruger 10/22. I am fine with a 10 round magazine.
Beats a sharp stick, but unless I'm being invaded by Monty Python rabbits, I want more than a .22 for defense.
For a new shooter a Ruger 10/22. I am fine with a 10 round magazine.
For a new shooter a Ruger 10/22. I am fine with a 10 round magazine.
Maybe I'm missing something. The thread is about home defense. Very close range shooting. I really can't see any difference between a shot gun and a rife at these distances in placing your shot except for the recoil generated. I'm sure someone will be along to explain the difference.
Something else that confuses me about these home defense threads is that any cheap handgun is not to be trusted to be reliable but the cheapest shotgun is perfect for the task of saving your life.
'Scuse me, I'm just bored and sarcastic this morning.
While I can't ever see myself buying one, our local shop sells quite a number of Hi-Points (it's a poor town) and reports are certain models are pretty darn reliable.What I was getting at is the fact that any handgun that is not expensive is considered junk in most of these posts but any cheap shotgun will perform reliably.
P90 is better than all these, seeing as it was specifically designed for this exact scenario by some of the best minds on the subject. It's too expensive for many cheap new shooters
Any firearm that is to be used for defense should be shot enough to be trusted to perform without problems. Cheap or expensive. What I was getting at is the fact that any handgun that is not expensive is considered junk in most of these posts but any cheap shotgun will perform reliably.
Shotgun for me.
More hits on the target for the one or two shots you'll take during the couple of seconds that you'll have to shoot. I'd rather put 9 .33 caliber impacts on the target than one .223 caliber hit. A normal .223 round will put about 1300 ft-lbs of energy on the target but 9 double 00 pellets will deliver about 1500 ft-bls of energy. The average guy isn't going to be able to make a nice center of mass 9 round, 4 inch pattern with their AR, I'd bet that half those rounds will be sprayed all over the room. But with a shotgun you can put 9 .33 caliber hits inside of 4 inches with one shell.
Recoil? I doubt that the average person is going to notice it for the one or two shots that they are going to be able to get off. I'd only worry about it if I thought that I was going to get in to a protracted fire fight - which I don't see happening in a real home defense situation. Just remember, even with a shotgun you need to aim the front bead on to the target.
Most of you guys sound like you are talking about the kind of gun fight a military person or a cop would get involved with, not the kind of situation an average person would get in to with a home invasion situation.
Jim Watson said:At home defense ranges, the shotgun pattern does not spread enough to matter, this is not the "scattergun" of western movie fame.
Aim a shotgun, aim a rifle. Not much difference I can see.
As the range increases, the skill needed to get hits with a rifle increases, but the shotgun goes to a matter of luck and then is out of effective range altogether.
I just have to ask this. How many of the posters offering opinions on this particular thread, or for any self/home defense situation for that matter, have actual first hand experience to back up their opinion? I certainly don't and would guess about 99% posting don't either.
I just have to ask this. How many of the posters offering opinions on this particular thread, or for any self/home defense situation for that matter, have actual first hand experience to back up their opinion? I certainly don't and would guess about 99% posting don't either.
P90 is better than all these, seeing as it was specifically designed for this exact scenario by some of the best minds on the subject. It's too expensive for many cheap new shooters
Depends heavily on what you practice with/shoot a lot. I shoot a lot of trap and hunt with a shotgun a ton. I would pick one for home defense without hesitation. The recoil would not phase me and based on my experience with hunting shots when I am very excited, I doubt I would notice it at all in an armed confrontation. My shotguns are also heavy enough to be an effective club. For others an AR might fill the same role.
For someone who does not shoot, hunt or practice much, I would guess a handgun would be the easiest choice to handle.
P90 is better than all these, seeing as it was specifically designed for this exact scenario by some of the best minds on the subject. It's too expensive for many cheap new shooters
Pretty sure the criteria for the P90 was a rear echelon PDW with the ability to penetrate PASGT armor at 50 meters, which the 9mm subguns it was replacing couldn't do.
First of all, it wasn't replacing 9mm SMGs, it was replacing whatever replaced the M1 Carbine originally intended for non-front crews if anything (which is to say, the full-size M16/FAMAS/SA80/HK33/AR70 223 rifles that were in service by many of these units when the RFP went out). 9mm never had the capabilities of range or AP that 5.7 was bringing to the table, the only real prior alternative was the 223 carbine. Second, the AP qualities were requirements for a particular load of ammunition, and only one facet of the design goal (and not even the most important one). The AP rating mostly served to set the base 'power level' of the various PDW rounds in competition (i.e. do you want a rifle round or a pistol round or something in between?)
I know you hate the 5.7, Mach, but c'mon; the PDW concept is tailor-made for domestic defensive scenarios (it's definitely underwhelming for a battlefield scenario, but that's specifically what it was not designed for). Surprise attack by superior numbers of superior-armed foes, and this gun was meant to have enough punch to hold them off or cover an egress; literally the exact same requirements as a civilian defensive scenario.
-"Rear echelon" non-combat personnel going about their daily lives sounds an awful lot like civvy home life or travel
-"Rear echelon" non-combat personnel with some, but not extensive, training in the use of their defensive weapons who would prefer a simple & easy to shoot platform, sounds an awful lot like civvy shooters
-The whole point of the PDW was to bring the capacity to engage & repel attackers with superior armament (to include armor) in a defensive scenario, while remaining as unobtrusive as possible otherwise. Sounds a whole lot like the ideal defensive weapon for anybody
-While automatic fire certainly increases the weapon's effectiveness, it is hardly fundamental to its utility (as we all know, even controllable automatic fire really doesn't bring huge additional capability to the table over semi-auto, especially in a defensive stance where the known approaches can be covered)
-While AP ammo is useful against armored targets (still rare, but will obviously increase in civilian life as tech advances & we insist on using defensive ammo uniquely ill-suited for armor-penetration), it's not like the 5.7 gives up anything on un-armored targets for this capacity when using the more common non-AP rounds. The end result is similar to 9mm, i.e. "good enough"
Yet I'm sure many will continue to miss the difference between defense and offense, and argue that since the P90 isn't the best tool for storming a building of hostile bunkered commandos, an SBR M4 in 5.56 at a minimum is needed for driving off or stopping determined hoods intent on doing harm. Doesn't matter that the gun is larger, louder, brighter, slower to get on target, has fewer rounds on tap, and causes a nasty flinch in most shooters who are more likely to find it too unpleasant to correct with frequent practice.
TCB
Good taste, at least . I can't even imagine using a 30-06 for defensive indoor use. It's crazy enough that people fire it from inside deer stands. Sheesh, at least the cops will be able to spot the guy by his singed eyebrows if nothing elsemy HD gun is an Ithaca 37
Sheesh, at least the cops will be able to spot the guy by his singed eyebrows if nothing else