CCW instructor tells wife that her 642 is a bad choice !

[Newton]

The wife did day number 1 of her 2 day CCW training in Phoenix today and the instructors were "1911 or die" fanatics. To make matters worse, she is the ONLY revolver shooter out of 48 attendees (with her 642), including 9 women.

Apparently there are a few things that we all didn't know:

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

3. You need hi cap mags in a shoot out.

4. You shouldn't carry a revolver because the police don't use them, so they must be useless.

I hope you all learned something <sarcasm off>

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Then I must really be dumb.....

As I have been a NRA certified instructor for over 20 years and teaching the Florida CCW classes since they began in 1987 and I also carry a revolver as a CCW weapon on occasion.

The one thing that I never do is criticize someone on their choice of CCW weapon. There are way too many variables and there is no "perfect" gun, so it is strictly a matter of personal choice. Even a .22LR revolver that they will actually carry is better than a 1911 that they leave in the car because it is too heavy to tote around 24/7.

 

[roscoe]

Where in Phoenix was she taking the class?

 

[WT]

The AZ instructor has been smoking too much wacky weed. He really needs to cut back on his peyote consumption.

The Smith 642 revolver is fine for self defense. For an instructor to say it isn't just plain wrong and can devastate the confidence of a student with her weapon.

The instructor should change his tune or give up teaching.

I too have over 20 years teaching NRA courses. I would never say what he did.

 

[c_yeager]

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

These are actually partially true and should probably be noted by a lot of people. Revolvers generally dont have the "failures to feed" that are associated with semis, but they are not any more immune to parts breakage than a semi. And yeah, a buggered up revolver will often not fire at all without a trip to a gunsmith. then again a broken auto isnt much better.

Neither of these come anywhere NEAR adequate reasons for not carrying a revolver. The fact is that a revolver is *probably* more likely to have a failure free lifespan of casual shooting that an auto, but they are not some kind of magical machine that cannot break. This is something that people sometimes do forget.

The guys sound like complete jerks since the 642 is probably one of the best small carry guns out there today, and even die-hard 1911 fans seem to have a place in their hearts for the good 'ole snubby. Sounds to me like she found some uber tactical mall-ninja types who read to many gun magazines.

 

[Jeff Timm]

I took the CCW class in FL. There were only two people with Revolvers, me and the Instructor.

Geoff
Who notes he has more Semi-autos than revolvers,

 

[jc2]

Well, Newton, were the instructors "'1911 or die' fanatics," or did they believe "you need hi cap mags in a shoot out?" The two positions are kind of contradictory, aren't they? Or are we just a little frustrated and shooting from the hip?

The funnin' aside, I'd be interested to know exactly what was presented and how it was present sans the sarcasm (and versus how you took it--second hand at that).

While I don't believe an instructor should directly criticize a student's choice of weapons one way or another (other than for safety reasons), giving the level of knowledge (very, very lacking in most cases) of many people seeking a CHL, an overview of various firearms--including their relative strengths and weaknesses--is not totally uncalled for.

How much of a factor in the perception was the fact that she had the only revolver? Was the instructor's intent to make her think, or did he erode her confidence--or maybe a little of both? There is a big difference.

For example, a five-shot shot, light-weight, J-frame DAO snubbie is good back-up weapon, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a primary carry weapon (but it IS a whole lot better than nothing). Hopefully, a statement like that will make you think (though, admittedly, it could upset you or erode your confidence).

 

[Marko Kloos]

For example, a five-shot shot, light-weight, J-frame DAO snubbie is good back-up weapon, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a primary carry weapon (but it IS a whole lot better than nothing).

People who think they might find themselves in scenarios like the bordello shootout in Way of the Gun carry semi-autos with a half dozen magazines at all times.

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

The five-shot snubbie is by far the most popular carry option in America's pockets, purses, and glove boxes.

 

[Newton]

The wife is taking her class at the Scottsdale Gun Club, the USA'a largest indoor civilian shooting range (apparently).

I had to endure an evening of constant dry firing, because she is determined to ace the qualification shoot today and is hoping to have a 1911 shooter in the next lane because you might say she has something to prove.

The instructors also told a story from 2 classes ago where a female student swept one of them with her muzzle. When they correctly admonished her for doing so, she replied "it's ok, it's not loaded", thus adding a stupid statement to a stupid act. For this they not only threw her off the course, but wrote to the Arizona DPS and asked them to never, ever let this lady receive a CHL. I thought that was disgusting, they were there to train her out of dangerous habits, not punish her for having them.

I just saw the wife off to her class, I'm really hoping she brings honor to revolver shooters

 

[MillCreek]

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

A profound, yet nonetheless undoubtedly true statement. I fall squarely within the Mr. Suburban demographic, and my most common carry is either a Taurus 650, 651, 9 mm Millennium Pro, or a variety of S&W snubbies, small autos or Ruger snubbies. Rarely do I carry the full-size 1911's or high-cap 9 mm autos. I figure if it is likely I will need those, I should probably be carrying the Ithaca 37, Colt SP-1, or the Mini-14 instead!

 

[DT Guy]

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

Of course, an extension of this is that 99.5% of Suburbians will never need a gun of any type for defense.




Doesn't seem to stop most of us here...


Larry

 

[pax]

Marko ~

Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

As will being a bad shot under stress.

I'm not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice. I'm saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing, everything else being equal.

pax

 

[rick_reno]

Moron instructors. Get thru the class, and don't recommend them to anyone else.

 

[sgt127]

Please show this to your wife. For the last 11 years I have carried a 642 as a backup. All day every day. Its with me alot off duty too, dropped in my pocket for a quick trip to the store. Though I work in a major metro area, I live a little out in the country. The pain in the *ss of carrying a full size gun and extra mags off duty, is not worth it to me. Lots of people will tell you to prpare for the worst, if that was the case, I would never go anywhere without my 11-87 full of 00 Buck or my M-4 with three extra mags. There has to be a happy medium. Even though I carry a .223 in my car at work, I don't sling it for every call I go to, based on the have the biggest gun you can carry theory, I guess I'm wrong not to carry it on every call because something "could" happen. I would also look like an idiot responding to a minor accident and slinging a .223 as I get out of the car. The reason cops don't carry their shotguns or rifles on every call is becasue we generally DON'T get into shootouts, off duty, the odds are even less and an average citizen wandering around has even less chance of getting into a shootout.

Those instructors need to back off of reading Soldier of Fortune, remember they were never SEALS, they are not training a bunch of DELTA Operators and chill out. As soon as she passes the class, you might mention to them that they are idiots.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Reminds me fo when I took the class in AZ.

The instuctors were pretty good. However, there was a HUGE loud-mouth with the latest $1K+ .45 and all the toys you could imagine.
Was a bit funny when it turned out he couldn't shoot it any better than a sling-shot with it.

And yes, I qualified with a revolver. I think 6 shots of .357 is all I need. Not the best choice for everyone but does it for me.

Oh, could you let us know where the class was so others can avoid them?

 

[sgt127]

I think 6 shots of .357 is all I need. Not the best choice for everyone but does it for me.

Bill Jordan...Ed McGivern...Charles Askins...Skeeter Skelton....You are in pretty good company....

 

[GEM]

Lots of instructors from well know tactical schools carry the J frame for casual outings.

This is a typical example of the gun world seeing everything as black and white and not as a continuum of risk against which you plan.

We know that most DGUs are deterrent, so having a gun is the biggest part. We have no info that type of gun matters in deterrence. I know because I read the real literature on this and know the experts who study this.
In any case, a J frame is not a puny gun.

Thus the vast majority of incidents will be handled by one. Is it better to always have a big gun - sure! But if you can't carry one, should you not carry a J - NO!

Personally, I carry a Glock 19 when I can. When dress prevents, its a J or a Kahr. Sometimes, it's been a NAA 22 mag because of some circumstance. It is always better to have a gun.

I'm sure the instructors wear at all times the full Bat Belt.

Hicap Semi
BUG
2 knives
OC
Flashlight and backup
Cell phone.

In car - AR, AK or Shotgun and bug out bag.

 

[BryanP]

I had to endure an evening of constant dry firing, because she is determined to ace the qualification shoot today and is hoping to have a 1911 shooter in the next lane because you might say she has something to prove.

Good for her for wanting to do well. I hope she blows the doors off them. Let her know we're rooting for her and keep us informed.


Bryan (who has a 642 on his wish-list)

 

[Marko Kloos]

Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

Well, if three determined, armed assailants pick you as a target, then your goose is pretty much cooked, whether you have a five-shot snub or a seventeen-shot Wondernine. You'll just die with more bullets left in your weapon.

Most criminals are opportunists who rely on surprise and compliance. If I ever get accosted by a group of individuals in a life-threatening fashion while armed with a five-shooter, I'll just have to shoot the first two or three and hope that the remainder of the group have lost their stomachs for a fight by then.

More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it.

Picking a carry gun is always a tradeoff between size, weight, and convenience. I am still convinced that a five-shot snub is perfectly adequate for most lifestyles, especially since it makes compliance with the "have a gun" rule easy for a lot of people who have no interest in adapting their wardrobe and lifestyle around their sidearm like we gun geeks do. A lot of people don't want to try fifteen holster and belt combinations to find out just how big a gun they can reasonably carry. They just want something that's reliable, simple to operate, easy to maintain, easy to conceal, and reasonably powerful. The snubbie fits the bill on all accounts...that's why it's still going strong.

That said, I'd never talk smack about someone else's carry choice. (Besides, if you denigrate someone's gun, and they outshoot you with it, you have no excuse.)

In the end, it only matters whether you're comfortable with your chosen gun, and whether you can shoot it well. I'd be far more afraid of a skilled adversary with a single-action blackpowder sixgun than an unskilled one with a laser-equipped HK USP Tactical.

 

[Magnum88C]

First, a story. When I did the CCW class thing, we only had two women and they had little guns. One had a .38 Snubby (don't know which model, but it was a S&W) the other a little NAA .32 ACP. We of course had some jack@$$ brag about his damn 1911. Well, of course the women got nervous not only that their guns weren't enough, but that they'd wasted money buying them. The instructor did the exact opposite of the two clowns mentioned in this thread -- he said that neither would be his first choice, but "here's how to make the most of what you've got. You can always get a different gun after you've been shooting a while and know what will fit you best."

Now let's get real folks. How often do you really think Mitzy Homemaker is going to get charged by N number of superskilled determined ninjas? Fact is, criminals are, for the most part, lazy cowards. They want the easy score, and if they don't get it they go elsewhere. If they don't believe her that she'll shoot, she puts two intot he chest of the alpha scumbag, the rest are going to run like their drawers are on fire. It won't be because she has more bullets than they have members, it'll be because none wants to be the one to volunteer for the bullets she has left.

Let's also give women some credit here, generally they aren't stupid enough to be driving through the parts of town where determined (read doped-up) gangs roam. Every woman I ever knew was smart enough to drive around such areas, even if it meant going several miles out of the way to do so. The first step in surviving a gunfight is to avoid getting into one.

Newton, I hope you tell your wife not to worry about her gun, if she's smart (she seems to be) and avoids known trouble areas, her choice is just fine, and that the Brits have a technical term for the people she ran into: wankers.
Oh, and get her some snap caps for that dry firing.

 

[Vic303]

A 5 shot snubbie vs 3 determined assailants? Hmm...2 in the first, 2 in the second, and we will see just how 'determined' the 3rd assailant really is! I'll have 1 left for him, and I bet you he has NO idea how many rounds my snubbie holds.

 

[mec]

Not all CCW Instructors are the brightest porch light on the block. I know this because I am a CCW instructor.

 

[jc2]

Marko -

People who think they might find themselves in scenarios like the bordello shootout in Way of the Gun carry semi-autos with a half dozen magazines at all times.

You're reading just a little too much into what I said (and jumped to a very incorrect conclusion).

I think there is a better middle ground. Even back when revolvers were pretty much the standard in LE, the five-shot J-frames were considered better suited to the back-up role, but the ever so slightly larger Detective Special or derivative (Agent or Cobra) would suffice as a a primary carry gun. In terms of shootability (and even capacity--20% isn't bad odds), a slightly larger weapon (two or three inch K-frame, for example) has it all over a light-weight J-frame. Your chances of hitting what you're shooting at (and even if there is 99.5% chance, you'll never have to shoot it that 0.5% can be a real killer). So, no, I'm not saying you need semi-autos with a half a dozen magazines, but yes, there are better choices for even casual concealed carry (if you can ever really carry casually) than a lightweight J-frame.

The five-shot snubbie is by far the most popular carry option in America's pockets, purses, and glove boxes.

A very correct observation. Of course, the correct counter point to it is--just like my mother told me, and I told my kids--just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Nodak]

I too am a 1911 kind of guy and won't usually leave home with out it but---my 642 is always with me every day, every where and I mean every where. I can not conceal the .45 where I work and guns are forbidden there. I can conceal my Smith. There are a lot of hostile people where I work.

 

[JohnKSa]

just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right

Some people never quite manage to figure this out...