CCW instructor tells wife that her 642 is a bad choice !

[Fatelvis]

I like how the 642 can be fired repeatedly while still in the pocket, and if you encounter a "dud" round, you can pull the trigger again, and it`ll probably go BOOM!

 

[Javelin Man]

In Ohio, you can carry any weapon with your CCW, however, my certificate had the weapon specified on it that I used to certify. I used a .38 S&W and three others used revolvers. Of the other 18, about 75% had some sort of failure during the class. Us 4 had 100% reliability. I didn't have a speed loader and that took some time reloading the five shots by hand, but I did load faster than one guy with his auto. (He wasn't very good).

Since then, I've obtained a Kel-tec 9mm with a 12 round magazine and an 11 rd. spare. I also carry a Kel-tec .32 so I have 8 rounds at my disposal. I carry whatever best fits my attire and perceived need for the evening, and I don't feel undergunned with any of the three. Well, maybe with the .32, but I'm a fast runner and the BG will have 560 gr. of .32 bullets in him weighing him down as he chases me.

I may someday get a .357 revolver, but it will be a full-sized gun to absorb some of the recoil. I'll carry it and not be concerned with the 5,6, or 7 rounds that it holds.

 

[grey9551]

Question for Newton

What distance did your wife shoot at. I am not sure in Michigan where I qualified a score like that would have made it if it is 7 yards.

We qualified at 7 10 and 17 yards and at all distances 50% of the shots had to be in the ten and nothing outside the 8. We had several that did not qualify the first try. You could requalify a week for 3 weeks and if you did not pass you would need to be tutored by a trainer. The extra qualifying was free except for ammo and the tutoring was very reasonable.

I made it through the first time but I have been shooting revolvers and pistols for 40 years.

Gary

 

[Newton]

I believe she did all her shooting at 10 yards, which is different from the qualification shoot I did.

Jeff, she works with Keller Williams in Ahwatukee, just ask for Kimberley.

 

[Boss Spearman]

I agree with Cosmoline. I only have 5 shots of .38 sp in my S&W 642 or Taurus 851, with some spare rounds in a holder.
If I ever need more than that in a self-defense encounter, I'm in serious trouble.

 

[fiVe]

There's nothing worse than revolver bigotry.

Seriously, I have found the 642 to be the perfect CCW for what I do and where I go.

R/fiVe

 

[dawei]

I read all about these courses & qualifications. Don't get me wrong I'm all for proficiency, knowledge, skill, & safety.

One of the few things I like about living here in WA state however:

1. You apply for your permit ($60 for 5 years, [renewal is $32 for 5 years]).

2. You receive your permit in the mail.

End of process.

Here CCW is not a PRIVILEDGE, IT'S A RIGHT!

 

[c_yeager]

Well, Newton, were the instructors "'1911 or die' fanatics," or did they believe "you need hi cap mags in a shoot out?" The two positions are kind of contradictory, aren't they?

You would think so, but i have met my share of people who didnt find a problem with holding both of these beliefs simultaniously. Apparently a 1911 with 7 rounds has an infinately superior capacity to a wheely that has 6 rounds (or 7 or 8 for that matter).

Frankly i have a hard time thinking of a situation that can be with 7 rounds of .45acp that couldnt be solved with 6 rounds of .357mag (the reverse is also true).

i do have to admit that i have heard to many horror stories of poor-penetration from .38spec to be overly confident in that round, however when someone can show me a stone-cold reliable .45acp in the same size/weight category as a J-frame, then this might actually become an issue.

 

[Newton]

Well her 642 is now loaded with some of the new Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P loads that were specifically developed for the J frame.

I have no doubt that if she ever had to tag someone with one of them (Lord forbid) then it would really sting

 

[Correia]

There are plenty of really stupid CCW instructors. I know. I am one.

We can be just as opinionated and ignorant as anybody else. We've just taken more classes, which we may or may not have paid attention in.

 

[exgun]

Just looked at a 642

Today, I checked out a S&W 642 with Crimson Laser Sights. It was sweet. I believe it would be great for casual carry. I think a good round would be the Federal Personal Defense 110 gn bullet.

 

[fiVe]

Well her 642 is now loaded with some of the new Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P loads that were specifically developed for the J frame.

Newton: Has she fired many Gold Dots? I've found that I shoot Remington or Federal 125gr +P better. I'm just curious.

R/fiVe

 

[Boats]

I wonder what one of those CCW instructors would think of my evolution as to what to carry. I went from being a wet-behind-the-ears kid who had to have 31 or better 9mm rounds on me to feel adequately armed, to 15 rounds of .45ACP, and after some functionality/accuracy testing am going to begin packing 12 .38 Specials centered around a mint third issue Colt Detective Special.

Might they ask if I have become a sissy?
Have I become "tactically" complacent?
Can't I manage an automatic proficiently?

Maybe they'd have to accept that after two decades of practicing and carrying that I now consider myself a very decent shot and have figured out my comfort level when carrying daily. They might also have to believe me when I say that I am unlikely to be one to singlehandedly fight off the Hell's Angels should they rumble into downtown shooting the place up.

 

[sumpnz]

The instructors also told a story from 2 classes ago where a female student swept one of them with her muzzle. When they correctly admonished her for doing so, she replied "it's ok, it's not loaded", thus adding a stupid statement to a stupid act. For this they not only threw her off the course, but wrote to the Arizona DPS and asked them to never, ever let this lady receive a CHL. I thought that was disgusting, they were there to train her out of dangerous habits, not punish her for having them.

I took my CCW class at SGC too, and they had the same exact story (except that it was a guy that swept them one class ago that time). I think it's just a story they tell to warn folks about the consequences of improper gun handeling.

My instructors, while 1911 fans, hardly poo-pooed other guns. However, they did recommend against mouse-guns simply becuase many people cannot shoot them with sufficient accuracy. They did say that if you could shoot a J-frame accuratly, go for it, but otherwise to stick with guns that are easier to hit a target a 10 yards with.

My wife qual'd with a borrowed Sig P239 in .40S&W. She was MUCH better with that gun than her Charter Arms aluminum framed .38 snubbie.

I believe she did all her shooting at 10 yards, which is different from the qualification shoot I did.

Qual, at least when I took the class in April, and when my wife took it in May was 10 shots each a 5 yards and 10 yards. DPS requirements at the time were 5 shots each at 5 and 10 yards. 70% within the 7-ring (chest size area) to pass. Not sure what they are now since I know they've dropped the class requirements from 16 to 8 hours for a new permit and from 8 to 4 hours for renewal (effective sometime in August IIRC).

Newton - You and your wife ought to come to the THR shoot on the 23rd. We're still trying to settle on a location. Check it out in the Rallying Point forum. PM me if you want to get together for a beer or anything in the mean time.

 

[Dirty Bob]

In the end, it only matters whether you're comfortable with your chosen gun, and whether you can shoot it well. I'd be far more afraid of a skilled adversary with a single-action blackpowder sixgun than an unskilled one with a laser-equipped HK USP Tactical.

- Marko Kloos

I think Marko nailed it! I recently shot at a range next to two guys who were shooting a beautiful beautiful Hi-Power with a laser sight. It seemed like they only had the one magazine with it, though, and at 7 yards, their groups wouldn't have been covered by a large dinner plate.

I've seen the same kind of thing over and over. I bought a Makarov and since the purchase have bought several spare magazines, a few spare parts, and over 1,000 rounds of ammo. It didn't set me back all that much, but the more I shoot the Mak, the better I get with it. I'm thinking of putting some new sights on it (I'll do the work myself to keep the costs down). It won't be the most powerful gun, but a compact, dead-reliable and accurate pistol that I can shoot well and can keep running seems like a better deal than spending all of my $$ for the newest "ultimate," pistol with nothing left for spare mags and practice ammo.

I'd like to get a Glock 19 one of these days, but right now it isn't in my budget. On the other hand, the Mak will make a great backup/spare pistol when I finally get the Glock. I do have a .38 snubby, but I shoot the Makarov much better.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[mikewilczynski]

go figure

Give a person a position where people have to listen and all of a sudden they knw it all.. I carry a revovler on many occasions. especially for a woods gun. I guess all teh people killed by revolvers died of fright.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Yes, mike, all your revolvers are useless! You need to sell them all and buy autopistols!

Seriously, I looked for a Model 10 in my area for a while, but couldn't find one for a good price. Evidently some people think that revolvers are useful!

Dirty Bob

 

[mikewilczynski]

pre model 10

Last Febraury I picked up a pre model 10 M&P. Accurate and smooooooooooth.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

they got this wrong too

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

Consider the Colt Single Action Army - in the course of praising it with faint damns many have told how it keeps working when broken - tie the trigger back and use it as a slip gun after manually rotating the cylinder and other stories - also pound on the hammer with your shoe when the spring goes.

To each his own but mindset matters more than equipment. A wiser man than I once said in effect that when I think I'd better carry more ammunition I stay home - don't let your 1911 carry you someplace you wouldn't go with a J-frame. Still a 1911 perhaps with a thinned frame and slim grips for small hands is mighty comforting and pretty comfortable too.

 

[Bix]

Glad it worked out

I'd steer very wide of any trainer who seemed preoccupied with the equipment component of the equation.

I've been pretty lucky in that all of my instructors have been focused on the appropriate half of the word "gunfight".

 

[G. Glock]

"More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it."


Marko's above comment, I think, is the most profound of this thread!

I've competed pretty extensively and fairly successfully with 1911s and Glocks, but I often find myself feeling pretty confidently armed in the summer (Winter, too, sometimes) with this little 642 in my front, right cargo shorts pocket.

I take this logic a step further, as well, when discussions of the "best" carry ammo get so deep you need boots. How many non-LE citizens (or cops for that matter) have died because a different bullet put in the same thug in the same exact place would have kept him from shooting back accurately or continuing the attack?

I'm still waiting for those news articles, whether in the gun press or the general press, about how somebody was killed for using the wrong ammo or for needing a couple more bullets. Not to say it hasn't happened at some point; everything has happened somewhere at some point.

 

[buzz_knox]

More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it.

Talk about your qualifiers.

1. You've excluded anything you haven't read, implying that it doesn't exist.
2. You've excluded cops, who have died in the midst of a reload.
3. You've excluded civilians who haven't died, but survived because their weapon did have sufficient rounds. Might things in Arizona (or was it New Mexico) have turned out different if the armed citizen who came to the aid of officers under fire hadn't had high capacity mags for his Glock 31?

 

[pax]

buzz ~

And he's excluding the folks who survived, but barely or only by luck -- and would have survived triumphantly with a few more in the pipe. I'm thinking of one account I read awhile back, a gun store incident, where the good guy ran dry & was standing over the perp with an empty gun. Fortunately the perp didn't realize it, and LEOs arrived on scene soon after ... but I would hate to be the guy standing there with an empty gun, bluffing for my life. Wouldn't you?

I cannot imagine interviewing someone after a gunfight and having them say, "Well, I wish I hadn't had so much ammunition available to me." Can you?

Again, for those who missed it the first two times. I am not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice for a defense weapon. I'm only saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing if you can get it.

pax

 

[buzz_knox]

Again, for those who missed it the first two times. I am not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice for a defense weapon. I'm only saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing if you can get it.

+1. If Murphy has struck and I have to use a firearm, I'm already way behind the curve ball, and the percentages people throw around (only 3 rounds per fight, 99.9% of confrontations don't require firing, etc) are pretty much out the window. So, I want every advantage I can make, finagle, steal, force, etc. Ammo is one advantage and training is another.

My tactical plans involve manuevering, not running. Retreating works, but running gets you killed. The plans also never rely on the bad guys simply "running" from the sound of the fight. Watch some of those police videos that make the news all the time, or read up on gun fights. Some bad guys run, but they do so after the opening stages of the fight are over, and they've thrown some lead down range. Bad guys (I use the plural as that's one of the growing trends) know the value of covering fire and have no concerns about where those rounds go.

The 642 is a fine weapon if it meets your criteria and you can handle it (the growing objection to J-frames for women is actually due to recoil concerns with sufficiently powerful loads, not "insufficient tacticalness."). Personally, it doesn't work for me for a variety of reasons, ammo capacity being the least of them.

 

[HankB]

J-Frame Snubbies have their uses . . .

IMHO a semi-automatic pistol is generally a better choice for carry; in my case it's either a BHP or a G26, depending on wardrobe of the day. More rounds, easier to shoot, faster reload.

BUT there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with revolvers, including lightweight J-frame snubbies!!! I recently acquired an S&W 340 and it makes a fine "ALWAYS" gun for pocket carry . . . and if you think something "might" be going down, you can stand there casually with your hands in your pockets and LOOK unprepared, with nobody the wiser if, as usual, nothing happens.

But if you're already holding the revolver in your pocket, you can probably draw and fire in 1/2 second or so, before the bad guy even realizes you're armed.

That ain't bad.