CLASSIC EXAMPLE: Why I Don't Open Carry.

[Zaydok Allen]

Think something more like walking around Wal-mart, or standing in a line at a Burger King or a bank, and so on. The guy OC-ing will be pretty easily identified and targeted.

That certainly could make an OCer more easily noticed but I still think in a situation where a lunatic walks in and starts pulling the trigger the general meyham of the situation will very likely cause them to totally overlook an open carried gun. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's all just guesses anyway.

In a robbery or mugging situation, yes I think it could make you a more likely primary target. But again, I've never seen data reflecting common criminals specifically targeting an open carrying individual. Common criminals want easy targets. I've also talked to a Utah lawyer who specialized in gun related crime. He made a statement that never once in over a decade of legal work, had he ever heard of a common criminal deciding to engage an armed citizen. They choose their targets based on them presenting an easy target.

All that being said, I still think cc is a better option, just not for the oft times cited "tactical advantage".

 

[Aragon]

CC is tactically superior to OC. There's no question about that. CC also doesn't antagonize and/or scare people like OC tends to do.

These important advantages of CC over OC far exceed any good provided by the boost OC gives to some egos...

 

[shafter]

Not chest-pounding or anything, but since this scumbag shot 100 people,
WHY didn't 10,20,or more of them rush this guy and at least attempt to stop him?
Not that I'm some big hero or "operator" type, but if you're gonna be slaughtered anyway, why wouldn't you at least TRY to fight back even if unarmed?

Probably because it was early in the morning at a club where most of them were intoxicated. It was undoubtedly chaos inside once the shooting started.

Some patrol officers do wear street clothes but they always have their badges on under a jacket, plus they always have their gear belts on so they are pretty easy to recognize. Frankly, a street wise criminal can spot most cops no matter how they're dressed ... other than the really good undercover cops. Those guys are amazing how they can work on the street without being "made."

In the same way that experienced cops can pick out CC'ers. It's hard to hide a gun from someone who knows what to look for, and it's even harder to hide the situational awareness that some CC'ers practice.

 

[Warp]

"Sticking Together as gun owners" does not include supporting recklessness, passive aggressiveness and attention whoring.

What are you talking about?

 

[DeepSouth]

Also, a criminal gunman isn't likely to just run into a building and start shooting, he'll likely recon the situation, if only briefly.
So if he sees a guy OC-ing, who you think is gonna be his first target?

I think his first target would likely be someone at a different location, because he saw potential armed resistance at his first location and moved on to easier prey.

 

[Warp]

I think his first target would likely be someone at a different location, because he saw potential armed resistance at his first location and move on to easier prey.

http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I have been carrying a handgun for 36 years, in different jobs requiring me too and for my own protection. Now in the real world, it really comes down to where you are (your environment), laws, what people are used to and so forth. In Kentucky until the last few years, there were no CCW permits. with very few exceptions, unless you were law enforcement, it was unlawful unless you were on your own property or in your own business. BUT OC was lawful and some rural folks did so. Around the Louisville area it was rare, but in certain parts of the state is wasn't uncommon.

Many people did keep a gun in the glove box or illegally kept a gun in their pocket, until caught and charged. Today it has all changed with the CCW law in effect. With that said, I have seen more folks carrying open and otherwise than I have in my entire life, which is good.

I prefer concealed only because that's how I carried for years on my job. Even in those days, plain clothes officers didn't run around showing their gun with a badge clipped to their belt, we had to cover.

I'm no longer on the job and my needs have changed, however with the hot weather and no need to go deep concealment with a .380, I usually carry my 9mm or .40. In the car, I may only have a tee shirt on and not cover up just to get out to pump gas or work outside. I will throw on a light shirt unbuttoned to run in to wally world or where ever. In most places, I can pick out someone carrying concealed almost as easy as open carry, and most experienced people can also. So it is perception. As the laws have changed, my perception over the years have changed from seeing someone OCing in town as showing off, to "hey, nice rig".

That being said, I can't criticize someone's decision as to how they carry their weapon. Maybe they can't afford the fees for the permit and classes, so they choose to lawfully OC. Maybe it's just too darn hot to cover every second.

Either way, as long as they are applying to Rule # 1 in their right to protection, I think it's great.

(I know this is long winded, but my life was saved on a late night road stop by a OC gentleman long before we had CCW permit laws. So I'm open to both.)

 

[Old Dog]

Once again, in a thread on open carry, a poster comes forth positing that those who open carry are "attention whoring." While the OC movement's history is chock-full of some over the top examples (ARs and AKs in a Texas restaurant, posing for photos, etc., comes to mind), most OCers I know go about their business pretty darn discreetly and quietly.

And, as noted earlier in the thread, most of the citizenry doesn't even notice. Since the advent of the "smart-phone," few people notice anything anymore.

LeanWolf said

A couple years ago, in Seattle (I believe?), four uniformed police officers were in a restaurant having lunch when a man with a gun entered, walked to their table and killed all four of them.

Lakewood, actually, and it they were having morning coffee in a Forza coffeeshop, all intent on their laptaps. Only one officer noticed Clemmons, stood and tried to draw ... very sad.

 

[dragon813gt]

I don't see how this is a classic example. An armed security guard was shot, not a citizen open carrying. The shooter knew the security guard was there and armed. And more than likely knew his location w/in the club.

The shooter would have no advance knowledge of citizens being armed in the club, either OC or CC. He would have no knowledge of their location w/in the club. He would not be able to preplan to take them out.

Imagine if he walked in and everyone was OCing? He was bent on killing people so he may not have changed his mind. But the possibility would be greater if he saw armed resistance in his way.

I do not buy that OC makes you more of a target. I've seen surveillance videos where a perp sticks up a convenience store w/ a uniformed LEO in the store. Their situational awareness is not usually the greatest as they have a one track mind. Obviously sticking up a convenience store is different than a mass shooting so I'm not saying they are an apples to apples comparison.

People need to get over their own bias and realize other people will carry in a manner they feel comfortable w/. Not everyone wants to CC just like not everyone wants to OC. It's a personal choice that only you can make.

 

[yugorpk]

It has since come out that this guy in Orlando had been a frequented this club on at least a dozen occasions over a long period of time. He was well aware of the club, the area and the security staff. The security guard getting shot likely had nothing at all to do with the guard open carrying.

 

[TimSr]

Florida law prohibits possession of a firearm (among other weapons) in a place that operates to derive the majority of its income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises, meaning all bars and nightclubs that so serve.

This is based on the illogical stupidity that people who carry guns do not have the ability to pass up a drink while they carry. Like saying "we do not permit designated drivers because drinking and driving don't mix.

Uniformed, openly armed security is the best deterrent. It also allows patrons to know who to turn to for normal security responsibilities. Concealed carrying, plain clothes security is more effective when a shooter is not deterred.

I think armed and uniformed security, along with anonymous concealed armed backup is the most secure combination.

 

[T2K]

The armed guard was an off duty policeman working security as a side gig. I have not seen any reference to a policeman being killed or wounded EXCEPT for the responding policeman in body armor who took a round in his helmet and survived.

 

[Shaq]

I think his first target would likely be someone at a different location, because he saw potential armed resistance at his first location and moved on to easier prey.

A common theory to support open carry. The reason it's not valid is because no one can get into the mind of a criminal & determine how he will react. He may shoot the OC'er first or he may go elsewhere.

Sorta reminds me of Jr. High School bully situations where 5 or 6 kids will pick on one kid. The victim will be told "Just beat one of them up & the others will run away."

 

[Shaq]

This is based on the illogical stupidity that people who carry guns do not have the ability to pass up a drink while they carry. Like saying "we do not permit designated drivers because drinking and driving don't mix.

Uniformed, openly armed security is the best deterrent. It also allows patrons to know who to turn to for normal security responsibilities. Concealed carrying, plain clothes security is more effective when a shooter is not deterred.

I think armed and uniformed security, along with anonymous concealed armed backup is the most secure combination.

I'm in favor of laws that prohibit weapons in places that serve alcohol. I've seen how men (and sometimes women) act after a few drinks.

 

[Shaq]

Well said, and I agree 100%. I don't begrudge anyone OC-ing, in fact I'm always kind of reassured to know there are right-thinking armed citizens close by.

But still, as illustrated above, the downsides clearly outweight any perceived benefits, and I think OC-ing is more about self-indulgently showing off toys and yanking chains than it is about any claimed need or practicality.

Bingo!

 

[Shaq]

Fairly shallow assessment, based upon an invented stereotype that fits your agenda of concealed carry being "best."

I OC regularly because I live in a state where OC was the only way to carry legally when I started carrying. It's also more convenient as I spend most of my time outdoors in the desert, and it is more comfortable.

Has absolutely nothing to do with "showing off toys" or "yanking chains."

You really need to get your head around the idea that in some places OC really is a better way to carry.

People who are against open carry are not bothered by OC'ing in a desert, mountains, hiking areas or rural country-type properties where houses are far apart.

They are referring to the attention-craving yahoos who stroll through a mall or airport or down a city street, looking for confrontations with cops, with AR's slung over their shoulders or holstered handguns, trying to make a statement, enjoying the attention & anxiety they create.

 

[entropy]

Not chest-pounding or anything, but since this scumbag shot 100 people,
WHY didn't 10,20,or more of them rush this guy and at least attempt to stop him?
Not that I'm some big hero or "operator" type, but if you're gonna be slaughtered anyway, why wouldn't you at least TRY to fight back even if unarmed?

That's what I was taught; if you're in the kill zone, ATTACK! Even if it's just bum rushing the shooter. Yes, you MIGHT get shot if you do. And yes, you might NOT get shot if you don't. I'd rather face the odds of being shot while attempting to resolve the situation than cower in a corner and hope someone else does, or that the shooter doesn't choose me.

 

[yugorpk]

People who are against open carry are not bothered by OC'ing in a desert, mountains, hiking areas or rural country-type properties where houses are far apart.

They are referring to the attention-craving yahoos who stroll through a mall or airport or down a city street, looking for confrontations with cops, with AR's slung over their shoulders or holstered handguns, trying to make a statement, enjoying the attention & anxiety they create.

Why do you think people are trying to make a statement by carrying a holstered handgun on the hip? If I do that I'm just carrying a gun no different than someone who has one under their T shirt. I seldom open carry unless I stop by a store on the way home from the woods but when I do I don't think twice about walking around the store or whatever. No political statement involved.

People that try to please everyone make me scratch my head.

 

[SSN Vet]

Well stated and I agree.

 

[DeepSouth]

A common theory to support open carry. The reason it's not valid is because no one can get into the mind of a criminal & determine how he will react. He may shoot the OC'er first or he may go elsewhere.

you don't have to get in their mind, just watch a few jailhouse interviews, or pay attention to their actions. They tend to mainly prey on the weak and people that look like "easy" victims, they'll tell you if you listen to what they say in interviews. More times than not they seek the easiest prey available, obviously their are exceptions.

 

[Red Wind]

I worked with hundreds of cops for 20 years. All but a few UC detectives open carried. This is true of every Police Department in America, from the NYPD to Podunk,Arkansas.

Why? it's a no brainer. It's a major deterrent, not a attention seeker. We need to get real here. Pronto!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

My reasons for not open carrying have nothing to do with "element of surprise" or "scaring the sheeple" if you want to open carry by all means go right ahead.
I support your right to make your own decision.

I open carry at work because it's a requirement. My experience over the years has been that people take it as an opportunity to make stupid comments about it to me, like "Here comes the guard he's got a gun better watch out or he'll shoot you."

I've also read comments on various forums in which the poster took great pleasure in addressing an opencarrier in public to either tell him what kind of an idiot he was or how grateful he was that the carrier was supporting the Second Amendment.

I find both approaches to be incredibly annoying and if I can avoid that by not open carrying I will.

I've also notice that there are people out there who take one look at your gun and see it as a challenge.Your gun does not intimidate them in the slightest. I've been standing in line at 7-11 and had a homeless guy walk through the door, take one look at me and get right in my face and tell me that "I'm security around here.

Mind you I wasn't just standing there in cargo shorts open carrying a Glock 42, I was wearing body armor, carrying a taser, pepper spray and a gun and it didn't phase this guy one bit. And remember this was completely unprovoked.

There are criminals out there for whom the fact that you are armed is not a deal-breaker just one more problem to overcome. It's always better to overestimate your enemy assume that he's smarter assume that he's better and better trained and find out you're wrong then do as soon as not and find out you're wrong.

When I open carry(at work) I'm very conscious about who's around me, who's on my strong side and especially who's behind me. If at all possible I don't let anyone behind me. I don't often stop in convenience stores at work but if I do I find one that isn't busy so I'm not in the middle of a crowd. As I mentioned before I wear my gun in such a way that my arm naturally covers it .

 

[LemmyCaution]

The armed guard was an off duty policeman working security as a side gig. I have not seen any reference to a policeman being killed or wounded EXCEPT for the responding policeman in body armor who took a round in his helmet and survived.

I'll second that. And since this entire thread is a retread of a completely useless debate that has been done to death too many times to count, and is also predicated on incorrect information, I move to cut off discussion and close the thread.

 

[dragon813gt]

I'm in favor of laws that prohibit weapons in places that serve alcohol. I've seen how men (and sometimes women) act after a few drinks.

Thanks for allowing me to make my own decisions. I've found that people that make statements such as yours say it because they don't trust themselves. They can't handle themselves around alcohol so no one else should be allowed to. There are many states that allow carrying in a place that serves alcohol. There should be stories everyday in these states about all the shootouts that occur because of it.....Pretty hard not to see my point because these incidents don't happen in these states. It amazes how many people want to impose their will on others and don't have an understanding of personal responsibility.

 

[arizona_cards_11]

I'm in favor of laws that prohibit weapons in places that serve alcohol. I've seen how men (and sometimes women) act after a few drinks.

Business owners are perfectly capable of deciding what they would like to allow on their premises without the law defiling their property rights. Don't feel safe where people are having a few beers and carrying? Don't go. It seems that most anti-gunners and 'pro-gunners' start with the same Statist presuppositions. "Your rights are subject to the democratic process and can be taken away by a simple voting majority."