Concealed carry at a gun show?

[edSky]

Here in Arkansas we have some gun shows at the state fairgrounds. Since it is a state building it is off limits to concealed carry. Last year I made the mistake of leaving a loaded magazine in my pocket. (They're not allowed, either.) On the way out there were security guards with a metal detector. I realize they were there to detect theft. My magazine set it off and I said "keys" and kept walking. I own that mistake, and I'm lucky I didn't have to figure my way out of an embarrassing (or worse) situation.

Rules is rules, and they're there for a reason.

 

[Sam1911]

I can't believe so many jerks insist on breaking rules, just because they feel like it. If there is a sign posted saying no loaded guns, follow the rules or don't go in. These comments about breaking the rules until you get caught are downright childish.

I don't think I'd go quite that far! LOL! There are LOTS of establishments that "prohibit" weapons (all weapons, period) in my state. Their statements do not carry any legal weight.

I carry because my ability to defend myself and my loved ones is paramount -- above all other concerns. My private, personal protection weapon, carried safely and discreetly, is no more a concern to such establishments than what kind of underwear I have on.

A decision to carry a deadly weapon represents many weighty choices. Who's policy to adhere to, beyond the terms of State and Federal LAW, is just one of them. I know the costs, I know the risks, I know the discipline required, I know the penalties for screwing up. I also know the potential benefits. I make my decision.

It is true that I can pretty much always avoid an establishment that requests me to be disarmed, but, thanks to good laws, I am not required to. That's a decision I can make. Not exactly what I'd call a "childish" decision.

But, you are welcomed to make your own decision for yourself, to whatever extent your laws allow.

-Sam

 

[DammitBoy]

Sam1911 - it's a question of respect and a question of safety first. If you don't want to follow the rules of an establishment, stay out.

I suppose you don't need to follow the rules at the gun range or at shooting competitions either? It's people who think the rules only apply to everyone else who are the most likely to screw it up for the rest of us.

You are no better than the vendor who put his concealed carry on his table that led to an accidental discharge that led to a death at a gun show. I'm sure he felt the rules didn't apply to him either.

The gun owning community has enough problems without people who think they are above the rules risking everything for the rest of us.

If I see an idiot carrying a loaded gun at a gunshow, I'll do everything in my power to get that fool ejected from the premises.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I see you and the Brady Campaign have similar beliefs.

No we don't have anything in common at all. Mixing some loaded guns and some unloaded guns is a dangerous mix. Too many people handling too many guns in too crowded a place is a recipe for inevitable disaster. I am surprised more accidents don't happen than do at gun shows.

A few years ago here in Georgia I was at a gunshow. A father and his son, who was about 10 or so, also were at the show. The boy was shot in the head and killed with a gun that a dealer forgot was loaded.

Not bringing loaded weapons to a gun show is a good idea. It has no implication to the broader concern of keeping and bearing arms. Concealed carriers at large are not taking out their guns, showing them off, racking slides, and dry firing in a crowded room.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam1911 - it's a question of respect and a question of safety first. If you don't want to follow the rules of an establishment, stay out.

Safety is of primary concern to me, two ways. First, I WILL NOT and DO NOT handle my personal protection firearm at any time. It is not "in play" at a gun show or anywhere else. It will not be drawn, handled, set on a dealer's table, or in any other way brought into public. If it is safe in a restaurant or out about town, it is safe at a gun show, it is safe anywhere at all times. Second, I am concered about safety and my ability to defend myself and my loved ones in all places that I legally can. There is no moral or ethical need to avoid places where a corporate "policy" may be violated. It is also not a respect issue. Whom are you suggesting that I should respect? If you ask me not to enter your house armed, I inubitively would respect you and your wishes. But I don't "respect" the policy of a corporation. There's no moral, and in my state's case, legal, need for me to do so.

If that is different from your belief structure, fine. I respect your right to that view, but I don't hold it myself.

I suppose you don't need to follow the rules at the gun range or at shooting competitions either? It's people who think the rules only apply to everyone else who are the most likely to screw it up for the rest of us.

This is getting a little silly. Of course I follow the rules of competition. That doesn't mean that I may or may not have a personal protection weapon that is not "in play" in any way. Any gun being displayed/drawn/handled/wielded/fired/etc. is subject to the range commands. If you have a j-frame in your pocket that is your "gravest extreme" weapon, that you do not draw, handle, shoot, etc., how could I possibly fault that? It's just good common sense! (Remember, there are plenty of robberies and murders that have taken place at firing ranges when folks "went clear" and walked away from their weapons to change targets only to find themselves facing their own guns in the hands of violent criminal types.)

You are no better than the vendor who put his concealed carry on his table that led to an accidental discharge that led to a death at a gun show. I'm sure he felt the rules didn't apply to him either.

Absolutely incorrect, and let's not get too personal, ok.? He brought his self-defense arm into public. This is a huge mistake. Akin to brandishing, as it turned out. Some other person picked up a weapon and violated the four safety rules. That's four other HUGE mistakes. I don't think you're grasping the basic philosophy underlying the difference.

The gun owning community has enough problems without people who think they are above the rules risking everything for the rest of us.

We all risk a lot every day. Guns are inherantly more dangerous than some other items. They also carry much greater benefits when needed. Everything is a balance of risks. If you are concerned about the pistol in my holster, under my shirt, as I walk the aisles of a gun show, then you are alarmed by that pistol as I eat dinner in a restaurant next to you, or as I sit on the bus, walk in the park, etc. If that is the case, we have reached an impasse. I can't accept your restrictions.

If I see an idiot carrying a loaded gun at a gunshow, I'll do everything in my power to get that fool ejected from the premises.

That is your decision, of course. Rest assured, the great majority who carry are quite discreet about it and probably won't alarm you by displaying their personal weapon(s).

We may have to agree to disagree, but I do hope you can see my point.

-Sam

 

[DammitBoy]

Sam - I think we can agree that you don't think the rules at a person's privately owned home or business, gunshows, gun competitions, and gun ranges apply to you.

This makes you a risk.

 

[Albatross]

DammitBoy,

I bet you file taxes on income you earn when you sell personal property for a profit. Cause if you didn't it'd be like stealing after all.

The world isn't black and white. But, I bet you have a really excellent view up there on your ivory pedestal of righteousness.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam - I think we can agree that you don't think the rules at a person's privately owned home or business, gunshows, gun competitions, and gun ranges apply to you.

No. You've ignored several things I've said.

1) If you, as a fellow citizen, ask me not to carry a weapon into your home or private property, I do respect you and will comply. I might not enter, or I may choose to disarm.
2) As I stated, I follow all the rules of shooting sports and ranges. If I were to draw my personal protection weapon during a match, I would fully expect to take the penalty for violating the rules that prevent it. Otherwise, again, it is not "in play."

I believe we're at the "can't see past" point. We should probably knock it off before we start frustrating each other.

This makes you a risk.

Everyone is a risk. You can never tell what another person may choose to do. With the gun in their hand or the car they're driving, or the chainsaw they're using to clear brush. The gun in my holster is no more a threat to you than my socks. Probably less actually, my socks can be pretty foul.

But so what? You are free to carry your own gun to counter the "risk" you perceive from others. Me included. I swear/afffirm that I will never give you cause to use it, but you don't know me so I can't take offense if you choose to remain armed. I'm going to assume and treat you as though you are armed, whether you are or not. An armed society is a polite one, after all.

-Sam

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Sam, if everyone would follow the rules and not take out their loaded concealed weapons and play with them at gun shows, there would be no need to ban loaded weapons at gun shows. The kid I mentioned in my previous post would be alive, too.

But people are people, and most will not follow the rules of safe gun handling.

So I think it is best that loaded guns are kept out.

 

[Sam1911]

I bet you have a really excellent view up there on your ivory pedestal of righteousness.

Hey, that's over the top. He's got an opinion and it's common enough. I think we can persuade each other, or at least figure out what points we are irrevocably opposed on, without getting dirty about it.

By presenting a personal attack, you've trapped him into either ignoring you or responding in a "low-road" manner. I'd rather he works through the logic of it.

Truth be told, mud-slinging is a lot easier than gentlemanly debate. Easier to hide behind vitriol than to present a reasoned argument. Lets not give any of us such an easy "out."

-Sam

 

[DCR]

If you don't respect the gun show promoter's wishes to leave your weapon in your vehicle, you don't deserve to be admitted and SHOULD be ejected if discovered. Think of it from the gun show promoter's perspective:

My show, my rules. Don't like my rules? Don't come to my show. Keep violating the rules and our insurance rates go up to the point where it's not worth the hassle to hold gun shows anymore and ALL gun enthusiasts lose.

Besides, you're surrounded by weapons of every imaginable variety and enthusiasts who know how to use them - no better backup in the world - and when's the last time anyone got robbed, assaulted/shot or murdered inside a gun show???? (remember, the plural of anecdote is not data...)

I'm with Dammitboy on this one - you clearly demonstrate an unwillingness to respect OTHERS' rights and place your own misguided need to "exercise yer authoritay over yer rights" over theirs and everyone else at a gun show who abides by the rules. That makes you a risk waiting to happen - a risk to self, others, and continued gun show promotion. Pack everywhere else you want or can legally, but take your attitude and gun home - we got plenty to buy/sell/trade/look at and don't need or want your presence or business you if you won't extend the same common courtesy to us we do to each other at the show.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam, if everyone would follow the rules and not take out their loaded concealed weapons and play with them at gun shows, there would be no need to ban loaded weapons at gun shows. The kid I mentioned in my previous post would be alive, too.

Sure. If people would only follow the 4 rules, all those guns could be loaded and we'd all be perfectly safe.

But people are people, and most will not follow the rules of safe gun handling.
So I think it is best that loaded guns are kept out.

That's fine and it works well as it is. (Remember, I'm one of the ones who defended this status quo a page or so back...) If your carry gun makes an appearance, you will be escorted to the curb. I can abide by that. In fact, it makes me feel a lot more secure, too.

It doesn't mean that I'm going to go unarmed. It does mean that if I (EVEN I ) forget myself and screw up, I'll be tossed. I see the signs, acknowledge the message, and will take the consequences.

Where was the problem, again?

-Sam

P.S. -- Really, this is exactly the compromise that the show promotors, venue management, and insurance companies have worked out. If they wanted to deny CCW, they just run everyone through the metal detectors and deny entrance to anyone carrying. They don't. Ergo, the system works as intended.

 

[Sav .250]

Around here it`s ....declare,empty it, tie wrap....back in holster. Have a nice day.

 

[Sam1911]

you clearly demonstrate an unwillingness to respect OTHERS' rights

As has been said by many intelligent folks, my rights stop at your nose (and vice versa).

SO, why is your friggin NOSE in my PANTS!?! LOL!

On a serious note, DCR, I think my last post covered your points pretty exactly. Remember, AGAIN, I'm one of the first to defend the system.

-Sam

 

[catspa]

When you "follow the rules no matter what" guys enter a building with a sign that says "Vote Obama/Biden 2008", do you do it? Do you recognize that rules are often an arbitrary, one-size-fits-all attempt to control others against their will? Do you reserve to yourselves the individual right to consider your actions and their potential ramifications, and make an informed decision about which rules to obey and disobey?

Back in 1776, I seem to recall George III and Parliament having a rule that said, "No resisting British soldiers when they're marching to confiscate your guns and powder..."

Parker

 

[Rockwell1]

But people are people, and most will not follow the rules of safe gun handling.

So I think it is best that loaded guns are kept out.

Do you realize how Brady that reasoning is? Right down to the part where it only stops people that are willing to follow the rules anyway. Because a smal number of people have demonstrated unsafe firearms handling you want to restrict the vast majority of safe gun owners who haven't.

Here's the story of a woman named Brady
Who wanted to take away all your guns..........

 

[Rellian]

Truth is, the sign is there largely for insurance purposes. In some states the sign holds little if any legal value (in regards to CC ONLY.... you pull it out you are in violation of CC and now are in violation of the rule....). In some states it is completely valid and even if you do not uncover the weapon you are in flagrant violation of the law.
KNOW YOUR PARTICULAR STATE/MUNICIPAL LAWS! There are no blanket answers.

 

[victory model]

An announcement was made over the PA system in the mid-afternoon at the show in Fort Worth a week or so ago reminding those in attendance that guns were to be unloaded and tied.....two Ft. Worth police officers were stationed at tables by the door with zip ties....Large signs were posted in more than one location....it did not appear that presenting a firearm for inspection was optional....I cannot imagine being so full of myself as to ignore all of the above.

 

[catspa]

victory model:two Ft. Worth police officers were stationed at tables by the door with zip ties and their own guns loaded....

Fixed it for you.

Parker

 

[Sam1911]

An announcement was made over the PA system in the mid-afternoon at the show in Fort Worth a week or so ago reminding those in attendance that guns were to be unloaded and tied.....two Ft. Worth police officers were stationed at tables by the door with zip ties....Large signs were posted in more than one location....it did not appear that presenting a firearm for inspection was optional....I cannot imagine being so full of myself as to ignore all of the above.

I am unfamiliar with the law in TX on this matter. Was compliance with this request legally required or not? I'm sure the insurance company backing the show's promotors would not like to have their request that you disarm appear "optional." If the law states that you must abide by their request, then it wasn't optional, at all (for the sake of argument).

If not, the use of Fort Worth Police Officers to enforce a company policy seems highly improper to me.

Not everyone assumes that, simply because they are told to do something, in an official-sounding tone, they must do that thing. This is dangerous ground and could very quickly lead to thread-veer, but not everything you are told to do is with your best interests at heart. Do your best to be a peacemaker, but don't be a lemming. Trust...but verify, as it were.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

Catspa, you bring up a good point...

Statistics show that my gun is FAR less likely to come out of its holster and do harm than those of the Officers.

That is absolutely no indictment of law-enforcement personnel, and there are a great many valid reasons why this is, and probably MUST BE so. But the point stands: my personal protection weapon is a miniscule threat, compared agains many other factors.

-Sam

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I was at PA gun show and carried. When I asked the guy at the front he said that the sign was intened for those who bring in guns that they intend to sell or trade and it didn't include CCW. If you are openly carring it, then you need to unload it. If you CCW, then just keep it that way.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Do you realize how Brady that reasoning is?

No, my reasoning is not Brady.

I am OK with carrying loaded weapons in any situation where the gun will stay holstered until it is about to be used. Gun shows are not that situation. People are there to look at guns. They get caught up in the moment. People "forget" their gun is loaded and take it out and show it off. this happens, and people break the safety rules... then accidents happen.

Normal concealed carry is in an entirely different situation. Guns are kept holstered, with hands off.

I would compare a gun show to simply showing off your gun to a friend at your house. No one would do that with the gun loaded.

Perhaps we must just agree to disagree, but I would point out that you hold the minority opinion on this issue.

 

[Sam1911]

Sorry, LG. I know you didn't direct this to me, but I'd like to answer a couple of points:

I am OK with carrying loaded weapons in any situation where the gun will stay holstered until it is about to be used. Gun shows are not that situation. People are there to look at guns. They get caught up in the moment. People "forget" their gun is loaded and take it out and show it off. this happens, and people break the safety rules... then accidents happen.

I said this from the very beginning: A privately held personal protection weapon is NOT "in play" at a gun show, any more than it would be in a restaurant, church, museum, the park, etc. You do NOT touch your CCW under any circumstances, save the "gravest extreme." A gun show and "getting caught up in the moment" is NOT the "gravest extreme." If you forget yourself and show your CCW piece, you will be tossed. That's fine by me. It should be a learning- or memory-reinforcement experience for the "toss-ee."

Just in case this is a point of confusion, if I normally carry a 1911, and I need a new set of grips for it and I want to buy them at a gun show -- or a gun SHOP for that matter -- I will be carrying a different gun for protection. The 1911 in question will be unloaded, shown clear, and/or secured as it is obviously going to be handled and otherwise manipulated in public. Not a difficult concept, I think, but one that is taught only in out-of-the-way corners of the world like THR, it seems.

Normal concealed carry is in an entirely different situation. Guns are kept holstered, with hands off.

Now you're getting it!

I would compare a gun show to simply showing off your gun to a friend at your house. No one would do that with the gun loaded.

Oh poop, lost it again! No, no, re-read my statements a few sentences ago. I don't go to a gun show to play with my carry gun. Period. Anyone who can't keep that straight deserves to be shown the door, pronto. And guess what? I think such poor gun handling in a gun SHOP should warrant the same treatment! Draw your carry piece without clearing it with the manager? There's the door. Try again tomorrow, you aren't welcomed here today. Make a gun handling mistake twice, don't grace our doors again.

I would point out that you hold the minority opinion on this issue.

Again, I know this wasn't directed exactly at me, but I'll point out that your sample size is a little small. I don't know anyone, on a face-to-face basis who will admit to clearing their CCW before going to a gun show in this state. I'm sure there are many, but my set of range-mates has uniformly espoused the same procedure that I abide by.

Oh, and I held a minority opinion during the last presidential election, too. Do you feel that I should re-evaluate my position?

-Sam

 

[Tennesseean]

When you "follow the rules no matter what" guys enter a building with a sign that says "Vote Obama/Biden 2008", do you do it?

No, and that analogy makes no sense. We're not "follow the rules no matter what" guys, we're "respect private property rights" guys. If a private entity says, "no loaded guns on my property, please," then I will respect that and either disarm or not go on his property. If a government entity has that policy, I make the same choice, plus I lobby to have it changed.