deadin
Member
Same reason you give for carrying a loaded concealed one.
Concealed carry at a gun show?
- Thread starter christcorp
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Same reason you give for carrying a loaded concealed one.
I think it must be a PA thing, we can carry all over the place, and concealment is NOT a requirement. We have no brandishing law.
I carry concealed all the time and anywhere it is not prohibited by law. In PA, a gun show is not prohibited by law. The signs are not legally binding. All they can do is ask you to leave.
That said, I totally agree with Sam on this one, I REFUSE to surrender my rights because someone posts a sign.
Edit: I attend shooting competitions on a regular basis, benchrest matches. When held in PA, many shooters have J-frame or other small CC piece on their person while at the match. These same people have to remove the bolt from the competition rifle when not on the firing line.
I carry concealed all the time and anywhere it is not prohibited by law. In PA, a gun show is not prohibited by law. The signs are not legally binding. All they can do is ask you to leave.
That said, I totally agree with Sam on this one, I REFUSE to surrender my rights because someone posts a sign.
Edit: I attend shooting competitions on a regular basis, benchrest matches. When held in PA, many shooters have J-frame or other small CC piece on their person while at the match. These same people have to remove the bolt from the competition rifle when not on the firing line.
With the obvious difference being that my loaded, concealed, one doesn't make an appearence unless I am in fear of my life.
How would you look at other guns while carrying (as in actually in your hand) a loaded gun? How do I know you're not robbing the place? Doesn't common sense dictate that the possiblity of a negligent discharge goes up by orders of magnatitude when you're actually handling the gun. There are laws in Colorado against brandishing there are none against carrying a CCW in a gunshow
christcorp
Member
This thread definitely went a lot further that I thought it would when I started it. I just don't remember seeing any signs at any of the gun shows mentioning Concealed weapons. I guess I'll have to check again this weekend; there's another show in town.
If there IS a sign saying no loaded weapons of any type, then I am fine with them. Those who have the Hard-On belief that they are somehow "Giving up their RIGHT", I don't get it at all. No one is forcing you to attend the gun show. It would be no different than any other private business that did not allow concealed weapons. You have one of two choice; 1)Comply or 2)Don't go in. There is no justification at all for bringing a concealed weapon into ANY private establishment if such is prohibited. It's not your property. Your rights come 2nd to the property owner. And if you don't like it, then you have the right to NOT GO IN. No one is forcing you.
Anyway; I'll try and make it a point to look for a sign at the door at the show this weekend. I'll be honest; there have been times I've attended gun shows here and had a concealed weapon. There are times when I haven't. I've never seen a sign, so never paid much attention to it. (I'm not so afraid of my life that I carry 24/7.) If I did, I wouldn't have the Job that I do. (They don't allow firearms); and there are a lot of activities I have done with my children that I would have missed if I was so paranoid that I had to carry a gun 24/7. Sometimes and some things are worth the risk. I risk death/injury every time I get into a car; walk down the street; or eat a burger. Anyway; private property and the owner's rights on that property TRUMP my rights "IF I CHOOSE" to be on that property.
If there IS a sign saying no loaded weapons of any type, then I am fine with them. Those who have the Hard-On belief that they are somehow "Giving up their RIGHT", I don't get it at all. No one is forcing you to attend the gun show. It would be no different than any other private business that did not allow concealed weapons. You have one of two choice; 1)Comply or 2)Don't go in. There is no justification at all for bringing a concealed weapon into ANY private establishment if such is prohibited. It's not your property. Your rights come 2nd to the property owner. And if you don't like it, then you have the right to NOT GO IN. No one is forcing you.
Anyway; I'll try and make it a point to look for a sign at the door at the show this weekend. I'll be honest; there have been times I've attended gun shows here and had a concealed weapon. There are times when I haven't. I've never seen a sign, so never paid much attention to it. (I'm not so afraid of my life that I carry 24/7.) If I did, I wouldn't have the Job that I do. (They don't allow firearms); and there are a lot of activities I have done with my children that I would have missed if I was so paranoid that I had to carry a gun 24/7. Sometimes and some things are worth the risk. I risk death/injury every time I get into a car; walk down the street; or eat a burger. Anyway; private property and the owner's rights on that property TRUMP my rights "IF I CHOOSE" to be on that property.
ChCx2744
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Every gunshow I've been to has signs posted that say "No loaded firearms." Everyone I know goes CCW. I guess it really does mean that you aren't allowed to CCW or have any loaded gun in there, but people do it anyways. It hasn't been a problem yet, but I'm sure that one knuckle head in the future is gonna mess that up somehow...ugh 
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No. Not at a gun show. A concealed, personal protection weapon is a VERY private thing. Once more, it is not part of the show, the game, the competition, the sale, the display, WHATEVER. It is a last-ditch defensive item.
A gun you're carrying in your hand surely cannot fall into that category. And I agree with your previous statements that such an item, in the venue of a gun show, is intended for public use/manipulation/inspection/etc. and must be unloaded and made safe.
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
O.k. I will conceed the points. I do make these decisions, in the strictest sense. I choose to veiw that my personal protection firearm is not subject to the terms of the "agreement" we, the promotor, or match director (oh, wait...that's usually ME), are operating under. I would never consider demanding that anyone be subject to search or other means to prove that they are completely disarmed. I do not WANT folks completely disarmed. I want the visible weapons -- those that are being handled, used, shot, inspected, etc. -- to be unloaded and proved clear. The personal protection weapons of others is none of my business as long as they stay secured. And mine are no business of anyone else's.
That is a decision I make. A compromise that works for me and so far, has worked to the perfect satisfaction of every show promotor, amusement park operator, museum operator, match director, etc. that I've ever had a social transaction with.
I respect your decision to read the rules strictly and disarm yourself. That is your right, of course.
I'm not GUILTY of anything. I've broken no laws. I cannot be "GUILTY" of violating a policy. If I am "dishonest" with a show promotor by remaining privately armed in his event, so be it. I hate to be dishonest, but it is a compromise that I make willfully.
Let's be very realistic. People who successfully and discretely carry a concealed personal protection firearm where they've been requested to unload weapons are most assuredly NOT the "worst risk for our community." That's a pretty silly statement.
-Sam
kanook
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a seller at a show had his "personal, no way in hell, you don't have enough money to even look at" 1911a1 concealed. a well now collector of these rare and exotic pieces was at his table looking at the ones he had for sale and inquired if he had any more for sale. the dealer thought since this guy is looking at my over inflated prices now maybe he will buy my personal piece at a very high price. he opened his fanny pac, removed the 1911, removed the mag, dropped the safety, got sidetracted with a question and pulled the trigger. he shot the floor on an angle, went 3 tables down, hit a table leg and went into the bleachers. He is now "banned" from the show. Inside a gunshow is not a place for a loaded firearm period. Way too many people with the idea in their head that they will never have an AD or ND.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No, you're missing some of the nuance, here. The original question was, would it be ok to carry around a loaded rifle or unholstered, loaded handgun? Those are not concealed, personal protection weapons secured descreetly. And I completely accept LG's view that such guns brought publicly into a gun show are for display, sale, inspection, handling (let's be clear, you're ALREADY handling them if they're hand-carried!) so must be unloaded and shown clear.
Your personal protection weapon is a very private thing. Of no concern to ANYONE but you, and not to be handled or brought in any way into the public view.
This is an important difference.
-Sam
charliewood
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- Jan 17, 2009
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my thoughts on this are, if im attending a my local gun show,i have to walk at least a thousand yards or so across a parking lot with people coming and going(not necessarily to the gunshow) in a not very good neighborhood.
Criminals know that you would have valuables either money and /or guns either on you or in your vehicle. security is non existant. my ultimate security lies WITH ME. I carry but wouldnt dare handle or even touch my ccw as i dont when im at other places. I have a very secure tight fitting holster and its safe even if dropped and the trigger is covered as well. i do not load and unload my weapons as this isnt a good thing to often do in my opinion?(asking for trouble). also ,you never know about people,some nut could start killing people and being my luck it would be the wacked out guy standing behind me.
Criminals know that you would have valuables either money and /or guns either on you or in your vehicle. security is non existant. my ultimate security lies WITH ME. I carry but wouldnt dare handle or even touch my ccw as i dont when im at other places. I have a very secure tight fitting holster and its safe even if dropped and the trigger is covered as well. i do not load and unload my weapons as this isnt a good thing to often do in my opinion?(asking for trouble). also ,you never know about people,some nut could start killing people and being my luck it would be the wacked out guy standing behind me.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
This appears to alarm you, but you do not simply have two choices. Under the law (where I am, at least) I do have the ability to make that third choice. As I posted before, I'd rather not have to make it, but I will when I feel the need. Everything is a compromise. I'd rather not have to have an uncomfortable piece of steel digging in my kidney, but I'll deal with that because it provides certain other benefits I want.
I suppose this is simply a statement of "justification" I don't agree with coupled to a moral choice I can't make. I respect your opinion, though. Fortunately for me, the law here does not agree.
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Thanks for this great example:
He should be facing charges, as LG and I were discussing previously. He failed completely by allowing his personal weapon to enter the public forum, and then he proceeded to catastrophically violate every other safety rule. His actions deserve the penalties perscribed by the law, and being "banned" from the show is certainly the least of those.
His actions have no bearing on my own choice to retain my self-defense weapon.
-Sam
He should be facing charges, as LG and I were discussing previously. He failed completely by allowing his personal weapon to enter the public forum, and then he proceeded to catastrophically violate every other safety rule. His actions deserve the penalties perscribed by the law, and being "banned" from the show is certainly the least of those.
His actions have no bearing on my own choice to retain my self-defense weapon.
-Sam
Blackbeard
Member
We should merge this thread with all the ones about dangerous idiots at the range and then it will be clear why loaded guns aren't allowed at gun shows. What percentage of range-goers would you consider dangerous? 5%? If there are 200 people in a gun show hall and 5% are idiots, that's 10 people dumb enough to pull out their CCW and show it to people. It won't be long before he shows it to a fellow idiot who aims it at some fellow shopper and "dry-fires" it.
Just like the range rules, the gun show rules are there for safety. Yes, you might be perfectly safe carrying your CCW, but many are not. In practice it's difficult to tell who's an idiot and who isn't. Maybe you'd prefer to have an IQ test before you're admitted to the hall?
Just like the range rules, the gun show rules are there for safety. Yes, you might be perfectly safe carrying your CCW, but many are not. In practice it's difficult to tell who's an idiot and who isn't. Maybe you'd prefer to have an IQ test before you're admitted to the hall?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Again, as I said before, THE SYSTEM WORKS. It is what it is and it works as it should.
1) Lots of weapons are visible and being handled. They are to be cleared and secured. No-one, idiots and smart folks alike, are to be handling or displaying loaded weapons.
2) If you carry a private personal protection weapon, it must remain so -- private and secured on your person. Just like every single other day in any other venue.
3) If you can't keep with the program, you will be ejected. Message sent, lesson learned, public safety upheld.
If it DIDN'T work, it would be changed and we'd all be wanded going through the gates. Or the law would be changed to make CCW at a show illegal. Those extremes haven't proved neccessary.
-Sam
bababooey32
Member
Sam,
I'll try to be as respectful as possible here. Are you also one of those "independent souls" that feels it is OK to leave their cell phone on in an airplane? "I KNOW it is an FAA scam!!!!"
Do you also speed down private neighborhood streets? "These streets are HOA! The speed limit signs are not legally binding!!"
Do you leave your cell phone on in the theatre? Do you park in handicap spaces?
Just trying to get a sense for which "rules" YOU think are OK and will follow, and which rules YOU don't like and will not follow.
No...you don't.
Again, with due respect, your logic is complete rubbish. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "rights" are and when and where you get them. While you may have a right to defend yourself, the property owner also has a right to determine who, and under what conditions people are allowed to attend his event. Only the most arrogant (or a Democrat) would suppose his rights trumps someone elses. As someone else pointed out; either obey the rules or go somewhere else. Since you are asking to "play" at his event, in this case his right to disarm you trumps your right to carry. If you choose to ignore his conditions, you are instantly guilty of trespassing. If he chooses, he can have you arrested. You would have no case.
For someone who keeps talking about his "rights", why are you so willing to abdicate your neighbor's rights? It is rude, self-cenrtered, ill-informed and certainly not "the high-road".
I'll try to be as respectful as possible here. Are you also one of those "independent souls" that feels it is OK to leave their cell phone on in an airplane? "I KNOW it is an FAA scam!!!!"
Do you also speed down private neighborhood streets? "These streets are HOA! The speed limit signs are not legally binding!!"
Do you leave your cell phone on in the theatre? Do you park in handicap spaces?
Just trying to get a sense for which "rules" YOU think are OK and will follow, and which rules YOU don't like and will not follow.
No...you don't.
Again, with due respect, your logic is complete rubbish. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "rights" are and when and where you get them. While you may have a right to defend yourself, the property owner also has a right to determine who, and under what conditions people are allowed to attend his event. Only the most arrogant (or a Democrat) would suppose his rights trumps someone elses. As someone else pointed out; either obey the rules or go somewhere else. Since you are asking to "play" at his event, in this case his right to disarm you trumps your right to carry. If you choose to ignore his conditions, you are instantly guilty of trespassing. If he chooses, he can have you arrested. You would have no case.
For someone who keeps talking about his "rights", why are you so willing to abdicate your neighbor's rights? It is rude, self-cenrtered, ill-informed and certainly not "the high-road".
deadin
Member
How about loaded open carry in a holster?
If we are going to argue what's against the LAW vs. what's posted by the gun show, open carry is perfectly legal in a lot of States. Therefore you should be able to use the same logic with the door guard at a show.
If you are correct, they should have to let you in, concealed or open, just as long as it never comes out of the holster.
If we are going to argue what's against the LAW vs. what's posted by the gun show, open carry is perfectly legal in a lot of States. Therefore you should be able to use the same logic with the door guard at a show.
If you are correct, they should have to let you in, concealed or open, just as long as it never comes out of the holster.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Thanks, I appreciate that. As I said pretty far back, mudslinging distracts from the meat of the debate and no one learns anything.
No. I have no compelling reason to do so. Using a cell phone is not an enumerated right, and I am not aided in preserving my life or my family's life by doing so. Note, that I also do not demand my right to USE my gun in a gun show. But I will have it secured about me, ready for "the gravest extreme" if it is legal for me to do so.
I generally do not speed anywhere. And, operating a motor vehicle on a public road, or someone elses' private road is not an enumerated right, nor does it (generally) aid the preservation of my life or that of my family to drive recklessly.
What is the compelling reason to use the phone in the theatre? I do leave it on, but on "SILENT". Disturbing the movie would be rude.
Parking in handicap spaces is illegal. And...again (sigh) what is the compelling right and/or preservation of life issue...?
There are many I don't care for. Only a few I don't follow, after heavy consideration. And, further, LAWS are not among them.
Obviously, I do. My state's laws say that I do.
Again, let's refrain from slinging mud. The logic of my position is pretty sound, I think. You disagree with me. Let's keep it on that level, ok?
You feel strongly that this is so. I do not.
Be careful stating legal positions like this. In my state this is completely untrue. If I expose my weapon, the owner may choose to ask me to leave. At that point I am free to do so. If I refuse, THEN I would be tresspassing. This is not a gray area, but a very clear one, legally speaking.
I do not view my personal protection weapon as falling under the purvue of his rights. Remember, my rights stop at the tip of your nose. Don't put your nose in my pants and we haven't offended each other.
-Sam
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Hardly. Now if the promoter asks you to leave the property and you refuse, then you are guilty of trespass. Each state has its own definition of criminal and/or civil trespass, so it would be wise to understand any statues that might apply, but the mere fact of participating in a public event does not give rise to trespass.
I never would have thought there would be such diversity of opinion on this subject on what appears to be a fairly comprehensive gunboard. I guess that just goes to show that people are different.
What happens, btw, when you agree to disarm yourself and you're sitting there eating dinner with your family and somebody comes in with violence in mind and starts shooting the place up? While statistically unlikely, it's happened.
Corporate policy and the predilections of a neighbor or property owner in no way have the ability to infringe upon the right to carry. Certainly you may find yourself without a job if your employer discovers that you carry at work - but you won't find yourself in jail. You may find yourself uninvited from a home cooked meal when Aunt Sally finds you packing in between the salad and the meatloaf - but you won't find yoruself in jail. And likewise, the gun show promoter cannot arrest you or have you otherwise charged with violating his silly rule.
As noted earlier, trespass is another thing entirely, but to be guilty of trespass at a public venue, you must first be asked to leave, to "remain after permission to remain had been withdrawn".
And some states do enable the force of law if a venue is posted in such a manner to exclude guns - hence the very good suggestion to know your local laws.
While I'm the first to agree that many gunowners shouldn't be gunowners (how's that for elitism?), who is the gun show promoter to decide that I should go unarmed?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Remember, (in my state at least), if you are asked to leave by the owner or his legal representative for whatever reason (including obvious non-compliance with his policy), you must do so. Otherwise you'd be guilty of trespassing.
So, no, "if we're going to argue what the LAW is" ...
-Sam
ezypikns
Member
If you like ANY rules, ANYWHERE, ANY TIME, for ANYTHING,
you must be a Communist. You must be a Brady spokesperson. You are the Devil incarnate.
There.
you must be a Communist. You must be a Brady spokesperson. You are the Devil incarnate.
There.
REAPER4206969
Member
collector14
Member
I went to a gun show this past weekend...
There was a big sign on the entrance that read "Your CCW Permit Is Not Honored Here". I thought how odd, that gun people would do that. At first it made me mad. After thinking about it though, I understand.
There was a big sign on the entrance that read "Your CCW Permit Is Not Honored Here". I thought how odd, that gun people would do that. At first it made me mad. After thinking about it though, I understand.
And, nine times out of ten, a sign like that has no force of law. Granted, the guy can say "nobody can come in unless I search you. And if I find a gun on you, I'm going to tell you that you are refused admission." There's not much you can do about that as long as he isn't searching only african-americans, women, etc.
It's quite the complex society that we live in, isn't it?
Despite the argument that I'll put forth here, I generally vote with my pocketbook. If I don't like the policy, I won't shop there. Sometimes I even go out of my way to tell the guy that I don't like his policies and that I'm going to spend my dollars elsewhere. Sometimes he cares, sometimes he doesn't.
Here's a real world example - I live in Illinois where a FOID is required (interesting then that I spend so much time talking about concealed carry, right?) to buy or possess guns and ammo.
Many gun stores require you to show your FOID card to shoot at their range. Makes sense, right? Complies with the law about not possessing any firearm. Most gun owners in Illinois don't like the FOID but grudingly accept that this is the way that it is.
What happens, though, if you want to bring a friend along to shoot? What if you want to teach a child or neighbor to shoot?
There's even a provision in the Illinois FOID act about this:
Seems pretty simple, right? I have a neighbor that wanted to get back into shooting. He's a retired Marine Colonel and has seen more action than I can recall. We decided to go to a local range to shoot - using my guns because the Colonel doesn't have any (gasp!). I called the range beforehand and asked it it would be ok to have a resident without a FOID card shoot using my guns. The guy said sure. I asked if we could use two lanes. The guy said sure.
We get there an hour later and another guy tells me that we can only have one lane, but have to pay for two slots. I asked why and he told me that the other guy couldn't shoot "per law" on his own lane without a FOID. I countered with "'ya know, I did call before we drove an hour to get here and the guy I spoke with said two lanes would be just fine. And this guy here, he's a retired Marine Colonel and doesn't need me to teach him anything. Perhaps if he likes it and had a good time today, he'll go get a FOID and buy a gun from you."
"SIR, it is AGAINST the law."
It would have been better if he had said, "Hey, because I said so." And so I explained that not only wasn't it against the law, but instead of making stuff up, he should just say "because I said so." He didn't like that, but he also had to run a return on the two range fees he had already processed. I told him we'd go shoot at his competitors and would consider his competitor in the future for gun purchases.
So... vote with your pocketbook and tell people why you do it. That's the only way ill-conceived policies will be rethought.
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DammitBoy
Member
Sam1911 said:
What compelling reason is there for you to attend a gunshow? No one is forcing you to attend. If you don't like the rules, vote with your pocketbook and don't attend the show.
A show promoter is running a business. A business that requires specialized insurance that, if he doesn't have or can't afford, without such - there is no show.
Loaded weapons in his venue have the potential of jeopardizing his business. He has the right to do business, he has a right to expect you to respect his rules. When you buy a ticket to his event, you have entered into a contract with the promoter to respect his rules on the private property he has rented.
When a promoter leases convention space - he becomes the property owner for the duration of his lease. He is liable for what takes place on that property. You do not have a right to jeopardize the event. You do not have a right to decide what you can and cannot do on someone else's property.
If the rules don't apply to everyone then they are worthless. I'm 100% certain that every accidental discharge that ever occurred at a gun show was caused by a person who figured the rules didn't apply to him.
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