Concealed carry at a gun show?

[Hammerhead6814]

Every gun show I've been to in Missouri always had the rule of "No Loaded Weapons beyond this point".

I think that, given the number of people in close proximity and the dealers who have access to both guns and ammo and all the guys carrying rifles, pistol, and shotguns with ammo only seconds away at either a table or a conveniently worn belt, it would take nothing short of a madman to open fire at a gun show. If he did, if the police officers (plainclothes, off-duty, or uniform) didn't get him the angry dealer to his right or left would.

It would be like walking into Fort Bragg and then start shooting. You wouldn't get far.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I understand what you are saying Sam, and have no doubt that you would not pull out your gun and start playing with it a gun show. But certainly, a lot of other people have done just that, sometimes with disastrous consequences.

I do not think getting tossed out of the show is enough punishment for pulling a loaded gun out at a gun show.

The bottom line is that in the excitement of a gun show, people forget what they are doing and make dumb mistakes with gun handling. It is therefore better just to keep all the guns unloaded. Difference of opinion, respectfully submitted.

 

[Rockwell1]

People "forget" their gun is loaded and take it out and show it off. this happens, and people break the safety rules... then accidents happen

And you're still imposing a restriction ( that only those so inclined will abide by anyway) on the many because of the actions of the few.

Very Brady IMO.

I would point out that you hold the minority opinion on this issue.

As Sam pointed out I hold a minority opinion in this thread I know quite a few people that don't pay the slightest attention to that sign.
That said, if I was the only person in the world who held that opinion I'd still hold it.

The property owner's exercise of his rights deprives me of a means of self defense. My simple possession of a holstered firearm, that no one even knows I have, inflicts no harm on the property owner. I'm under no obligation to follow an imoral rule.

he bottom line is that in the real world people commit crimes with guns or make dumb mistakes with gun handling. It is therefore better just to impliment common sense gun restrictions on the law abiding

Notice any similarity to what you posted?

 

[Old Guy]

If you want to steal a a hand gun, local gun show seems like a good spot!

So I do not leave my Glock 19 in the Jeep, ammo/mags, stay in Jeep, the empty pistol goes in to gun show, tie on it, back in holster, gets loaded when back in vehicle.

Sounds like a bunch of girls in here sometimes.

 

[catspa]

Tennesseean: No, and that analogy makes no sense. We're not "follow the rules no matter what" guys, we're "respect private property rights" guys. If a private entity says, "no loaded guns on my property, please," then I will respect that and either disarm or not go on his property. If a government entity has that policy, I make the same choice, plus I lobby to have it changed.

It makes sense to respect private property rights, but you're not exactly comparing apples to apples here. Private property implies individual ownership, which I respect immensely. I think the private property argument depends on the property owner making the request, and I'm not convinced that has happened clearly in the case in question.

However, when the property is public, and I have a right to be armed there at any other time, why should I waive my right just because there's a gun show going on? Because of some insurance company's corporate policy? Because the gun show promoter is worried I'll shoot someone? Because they put up a sign on the wall, for cryin' out loud?

As Rockwell1 points out, seeking to control individuals on the basis of what they might do or what somebody else has done is the main thing we dislike about the Brady bunch. When I see laws that reflect that viewpoint, I consider them optional and obey them when it suits me.

Parker

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Well, as I said, I suppose that we must agree to disagree.

I do not feel my rights are deprived because I can't walk around in a gun show with a loaded weapon.

Do you feel that loaded guns must be kept holstered?
Do you feel that loaded rifles are OK also, or just handguns?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Here, they are very clear on it: the signs say NO CONCEALED CARRY. For a gun you will be handling in the show, e.g., to trade, sell, have work done on, fit a holster to, etc., I can see checking it in and ziptying the action, but not your carry gun.

 

[heviarti]

First time I went to a gun show that whole thing bugged me. still bugs me. In the case of zip tied actions, I've gotten a bum gun because I couldn't fully cycle the action.

In the end, it's kindergarten law. I hate kindergarten law... it's exactly the opposite of what this country stands for. Gunshow or anywhere, anything that fits within the standard of kindergarten law insults me.

Kindergarten law principle: Because Jimmy hammered a block through his skull, nobody can play with blocks now.

I seriously think teachers who use the 'one person spoils it for everybody' method should be publically flogged. Of course every physician who indulges in the 'it hurts when I do this' response should be immediately punched in the face... when he asks why, tell him he said something stupid, and if he didn't say stupid things, he wouldn't get punched... just like you won't hurt if you 'don't do this'..

 

[Sam1911]

I do not think getting tossed out of the show is enough punishment for pulling a loaded gun out at a gun show.

Hm. I'm not sure how I feel about that, exactly. On the one hand, under certain circumstances, and in certain jurisdictions that act may be enough to earn a charge of brandishing. That's a pretty tough thing to have on your record. If anything *further* happens beyond the simple brandishing of the weapon, like an ND, the charges get pretty severe, very fast.

And, considering that most folks this would affect are simply newbies (and not-so-new-bies) who never meant a bit of harm and just forgot themselves, getting disarmed and escorted from the premises is at the very least going to be a very memorable experience. Not dealing with recidivist hardened criminals, here. I'm inclined to say, in instances where poor gun handling was the extent of the offense, getting tossed might be "enough." Again, just a gut feeling. But there's LOTS of stuff that goes on in shows and gun shops alike that I'd consider proper grounds for the same treatment, so take that for what it's worth, I guess.

Difference of opinion, respectfully submitted.

I can respect that, and i appreciate your thoughts.

-Sam

 

[lvcat2004]

I don't even know why people go to gun shows, unless gun shows elsewhere are SOOOOO much better than the ones I see over here, but I doubt it.

Overpriced guns, ammo, and other non-firearm related garbage and a lot of people who seem to NOT know a lot about guns and dealers who seem to want to exploit them.

Guns are so locked/cabled that I can't even cycle/handle them the way I want to, not to mention that I lose my self-defense tool if I followed their rules.

I don't know about other people but loaded or (supposedly) not, I just don't feel very good about people handling guns all around me.

I just stay away from those events. I haven't found a single good deal at a gun show that I can't find right here on my computer, with my loaded gun at my side.

 

[numaone]

+1 lvcat!
I went to a gun show in S. Florida Saturday and I want my $8 back. Atleast I didn't pay the $6 for parking, or I woulda been even more put off. I decided to walk the extra 400 meters.

I confess a 100% agreement with Sam1911. Don't let stupid ruin it. It's only "illegal/wrong" if you get caught. You make a mistake, you get thrown out. You make a bigger mistake, and violate a safety rule, it's on you. Not responsible to remember the safety rules 100% of the time, like getting excited at a show, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying?

"We all make mistakes"- but like all carriers should know are mistakes like this are unforgivable and should never happen, ever!

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Hm. I'm not sure how I feel about that, exactly. On the one hand, under certain circumstances, and in certain jurisdictions that act may be enough to earn a charge of brandishing. That's a pretty tough thing to have on your record. If anything *further* happens beyond the simple brandishing of the weapon, like an ND, the charges get pretty severe, very fast.

What would you think fitting punishment would be for someone who causes a ND with their weapon?

What if their ND causes death?

 

[Tennesseean]

It makes sense to respect private property rights, but you're not exactly comparing apples to apples here. Private property implies individual ownership, which I respect immensely. I think the private property argument depends on the property owner making the request, and I'm not convinced that has happened clearly in the case in question.

However, when the property is public, and I have a right to be armed there at any other time, why should I waive my right just because there's a gun show going on? Because of some insurance company's corporate policy? Because the gun show promoter is worried I'll shoot someone? Because they put up a sign on the wall, for cryin' out loud?

It isn't public property. It's open to the public that buy tickets of admission, but the property is privately owned and the person who operates the venue is perfectly within his or her rights to set restrictions on behavior that they see fit. Have you ever been to a restaurant that required shoes/shirt for service? Be barechested all you like, but if you're going to a restaurant (or, in this case, a gun show), respect their rules or just don't go (or go somewhere else).

As Rockwell1 points out, seeking to control individuals on the basis of what they might do or what somebody else has done is the main thing we dislike about the Brady bunch. When I see laws that reflect that viewpoint, I consider them optional and obey them when it suits me.

I agree with you here up to your last sentence. If you don't like a business' rules, ask them to change it or they'll lose your business to a competitor. If there is no competition, make some.

 

[Rockwell1]

I don't even know why people go to gun shows,

Where else can you get Jerky AND a Sham-wow ?

 

[danbrew]

Boy, what an interesting thread. I almost don't know where to begin.

First, though, Sam1911, kudos for some very well written and reasoned posts. You're clearly an intelligent and articulate individual. I agree with every word you've penned (oh wait, that must mean I'm also intelligent & articulate...! )

Gosh, where to start.

If there is a state/local law that forbids me from carrying in a particular location, I either won't visit or I won't carry. I don't like it one bit, but I obey the law. This includes federal facilities, places that may be off-limits by statue (bar, school, etc.), or in those states that have a provision in law where a private property owner may post his facility as off-limits to CCW. Some states offer these exclusions and the notice must be posted in a conspicuous fashion using certain verbiage, etc.

If i visit a private home and the owner specifically asks me to not carry (assuming that individual knew I was carrying - most would not), I would not visit. It would be very unlikely that I would strike a friendship with an individual that believed that I would be a risk to him or his family anyway).

If I am visiting a public venue (although private property) and there are signs posted requesting individuals to not carry, I'll make the call - but more than likely ignore the request. If discovered carrying (and I can't envision that ever happening, but, you know, people do fall/slip/etc.), and asked to leave because of the no-firearm policy, I'll leave. I won't be completing any transaction and will likely ask for a refund if I had already bought something. I'll vote with my pocketbook. Should one refuse to leave then one could be arrested for trespass.

Most locations are public venues that happen to be private property.

Would I visit a gun show that had a no-ccw sign? Yeah, probably. Would I carry ccw at a shooting event where I was a participant? Yeah, absolutely.

Why?

Judge me for what I've done. Not what you might think I'll do.

Are there stupid people at gun shows? Abso****enlootly! What a great place for somebody to go ballistic and start shooting people. "One of our own"? Maybe. A crazy guy? For sure. An antigunner? Maybe.

I don't like it one bit when I'm at a gun show or a shooting event and somebody violates rule #1. It happens every time there are lots of people and lots of guns in the same place. Yet forcing me to abdicate my responsibility to protect my family and myself (and through extension, the welfare of my family) is not the solution.

I wonder what the community here will say if a uniformed police officer was to visit a gun show. Would you expect the officer to unload and zip tie his duty weapon? Probably not. Why not? This isn't a dig at police officers, btw, rather a dig at those that think guns are somehow inanimate objects that come to life when lots of them get together.

All I ask is that society (you, my neighbors, the business owner, the government) accord me the same respect and ability to protect myself and my family that it has to the uniformed officer above.

Judge me for what I've done. Not what you might think I'll do.


Oh, and btw, if I'm accidentally shot at a gun show because some dofus was playing with his ccw or he picked up a loaded gun or whatever? He's getting shot if I'm not dead. Plain and simple. I guess those insurance rates are going to go up, huh?

Why? Everyone is responsible for the cardinal rule.

 

[Sam1911]

What would you think fitting punishment would be for someone who causes a ND with their weapon?

I'm not up on the exact charges that would usually be applied, but I would think "reckless endangerment" or something like that, at the least. "Gross Negligence" maybe? The punishment would be the same at a gun show as it would be in a stadium, mall, or wherever such action endangered others. Those are usually pretty serious charges. You aren't likely to still have a CCW permit/license after such a conviction. Good chance you won't own guns at all. Though, again, I don't know exactly what the usual charges are, and it probably depends on which jurisdiction.

What if their ND causes death?

I would think this would be 1st or 2nd degree manslaughter. But, again, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know precisely what the charge is called. If you're playing with it in the toilet stall in Arby's and kill the guy on the next stool, or you whip it out at a gun show and plug Bubba two aisles away while he's trying to decide between hickory smoke or teriyaki for his jerky -- the charge would be the same. And I would think it's the same charge as if you're trying to find your favorite CD that slipped off the seat of your car, jumped the curb and flattened someone waiting for the bus. Accident causing death.

Why do you ask?

-Sam

-Sam

 

[catspa]

I attend in part because I'm likely to see friends there, and it's a little bit of a social occasion. Another reason is that if I need say, an original buttplate for a '95 Mauser, or a barrel band that will fit a Springfield single-shot .22, there's gonna be some old boy there with boxes and boxes of stuff I can look through. If I talk him up some, he'll probly offer to give me the whatsit, although I don't mind paying a fair price. I might not find what I'm looking for, but I always leave with something.

Tennesseean: It isn't public property.

Dude, the Western Washington Fairgrounds are owned by the State of Washington. The Monroe Fairgrounds are owned by the County of Snohomish. That's where the big gun shows are held here. It's public property.

But say it wasn't public property, say it was owned by a corporation (as are the locations of some smaller local gun shows), which is an entity that has been created by government so that its participants can enjoy a special status not available to private citizens. Am I bound to obey the policies of corporations? Where do they derive the authority to demand that?

Here in WA the state legislature has preempted the field of firearms law. That means that when any political subdivision (or by extension any corporate entity) passes a law that is different from state law, it's null and void and no person is bound to obey it. RCW 9.41 states clearly the places where lawful concealed carry is prohibited, and gun shows ain't among them. So for the present, I'll be with Sam and Superlite. Don't ask, don't tell. When you put on your gun show and have metal detectors at the entrance, then I'll deal with the consequences.

I have never been to a gun show that was put on by the property owner, so I think the "private property" argument is a little weak.

And DammitBoy, not all rule-breakers are jerks - sometimes they have a good reason.

Parker

 

[chuckusaret]

I go to at least one gun show per month and CC in all of them and if I get caught I'll just let them escourt me out the door. I have only seen a metal detector used at one show as the people departed because of a "lost" handgun. I heard that the gun was found when the shop owner made his next store inventory.

 

[deadin]

catspa,
I must assume you are not a member of the Washington Arms Collectors.
If you are, you agreed to their rules when you joined. Not being a member means you can't buy, sell or even bring a firearm into the "meeting".
If you are a member, you will be kicked out of the club and told to never return. If not a member you will be asked to leave and never return.
In either case, if you do come to another show, you will be charged and prosecuted for trespass.
Bottom line.... You get one free bite, spend it well.

 

[catspa]

You're right, I'm not. I was once, and complied while I was a member.

Parker

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Why do you ask?

just curious.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Would you guys also be OK with carrying loaded rifles and loaded, unholstered handguns?

 

[Tennesseean]

Dude, the Western Washington Fairgrounds are owned by the State of Washington. The Monroe Fairgrounds are owned by the County of Snohomish. That's where the big gun shows are held here. It's public property.

They're surely not run by them. Even if the event is held on a fairground, it's a private event that requires admission. It's not public. The person who owns the company that puts on the gun show made the policy, and you should either respect it or not attend his events. You're perfectly free to rent out the room the next weekend and put on your own gun show, and then choose to allow or prohibit carry as you see fit. Gun shows are not run by the government, they're run by private entities.

But say it wasn't public property, say it was owned by a corporation (as are the locations of some smaller local gun shows), which is an entity that has been created by government so that its participants can enjoy a special status not available to private citizens.

I have no idea where you got that definition of what a corporation is, but you're saying that if I incorporate my business (I have an LLC, by the way), I can't set regulations on my customers? What?

Am I bound to obey the policies of corporations? Where do they derive the authority to demand that?

You're questioning the right of any private business to set prohibitions on behavior? Really?

I have never been to a gun show that was put on by the property owner, so I think the "private property" argument is a little weak.

My bad, I meant the person or group (which I'll simply call "private entity") that puts on the gun show. They hardly ever own the actual property, like most business owners, they just lease it from someone else.

 

[Rockwell1]

Would you guys also be OK with carrying loaded rifles and loaded, unholstered handguns?

I think Sam made the conditions quite clear. I carry my concealed handgun for personal defense and it remains in the holster untouched except in the case of "gravest extreme".

Neither an unholstered, loaded handgun nor a loaded rifle meet those criteria.

What legitamate reason would a person have to carry either around a gunshow?

 

[DammitBoy]

You've ignored several things I've said.

1) If you, as a fellow citizen, ask me not to carry a weapon into your home or private property, I do respect you and will comply. I might not enter, or I may choose to disarm.

2) As I stated, I follow all the rules of shooting sports and ranges. If I were to draw my personal protection weapon during a match, I would fully expect to take the penalty for violating the rules that prevent it. Otherwise, again, it is not "in play."

I didn't ignore anything you said.

1) You've said you carry at gunshows, against the wishes of the show promoter. The person putting on that show is a fellow citizen. A private citizen leasing a private space, charging an admission to his event. You do not respect his right to control the environment of his business. He has a right to deny access to anybody who wants to break the rules of his event. Your lack of respect for his enterprise puts him at risk of losing his insurance.

You don't like his rules, don't pay his entry fee, don't attend his event.

2) You do not obey the rules of any competition I've ever been to. The rules are plain and simple, no loaded weapons, except on the firing line. Again, you think the rules apply to everyone except you - because of your special little caveat of being "in play" - which is a complete copout. I've read plenty of rules at plenty of events and I've never ever read anything about, "except for Sam1911's ccw - which is 'not in play'.

I'm not guilty until I get caught is a common criminals excuse. It's facetious at best and dishonest in the least. If you were being honest and above board, you'd declare you were carrying before you entered a shooting event or a gun show. In both cases, they'd tell you to disarm or leave.

People who think the rules don't apply to them are the worst risk for our community.