Could this become a Waco/Ruby Ridge? Happening RIGHT NOW!

[crazed_ss]

LOL, a lack of a state/federal income tax would not cause absolute anarchy
and chaos.....somehow Texas has survived, dare I say prospered, without
an income tax.

Im not talking about paying taxes.. Im more referring to people acting like they arent subject to anything. What if a cop pulls me over and gives me a ticket? Do I become a hero because I decide not to recognize this "JBTs" authority to cite me? What happens when the cops show up to arrest me for not appearing in court.. do I get to bitch and moan about the founding fathers and tyranny? If I grab my rifle and make a stand, do I become a matyr or just another nutcase that ends up hurting the RKBA for everyone else?

Everyone lives in this society and everyone benefits in some small way from taxes and some kind of social order. I bet the majority of people here talking big about tyranny and JBTs is gonna file a tax return this year. Or am I wrong? Who here gonna stand up to the man and not pay their income tax and join this guy's "struggle"?

 

[Thin Black Line]

How about if this off-topic tax talk is locked, and somebody can start another thread when the shooting starts?

That's right --let's not discuss situations and historical circumstances that
lead up to shooting.

Shoot first, ask questions later?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

People, if something is wrong, it's wrong.

You mean like enjoying all the benefits of federal government (right down to using U.S. Postal Money Orders to pay for your house) while not sharing in any of the costs and then demanding in the same courts paid for by those federal taxes that your theft be sanctioned?

 

[Thin Black Line]

I bet the majority of people here talking big about tyranny and JBTs is gonna file a tax return this year. Or am I wrong? Who here gonna stand up to the man and not pay their income tax and join this guy's "struggle"?

We pick our battles, right? Yes, I'm going to file a federal income tax return
knowing that it continues to be enforced in conflict to the spirit in which it
was passed. Simple equation to consider in I risk losing more financially.

It's the same reason you and everyone else here tolerates that the federal
gov't has ignored the "shall not be infringed" part of the 2A. Right? RIGHT?

Ah, yes, brothers, pull the beams out of your own eyes before worrying about
the splinter in mine..... ...ouch.... .....ouch....

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I bet the majority of people here talking big about tyranny and JBTs is gonna file a tax return this year. Or am I wrong? Who here gonna stand up to the man and not pay their income tax and join this guy's "struggle"?

True, but what's your point? Most Chicago businessmen paid a large part of their income to Al Capone too. Did that make Al Capone's operation just? I can decry what Al Capone did without making the personal decision to stand up to him. Those that did stand up to Al Capone, however, are people I admire, even if it ended up getting them killed. I would never say of any such person, "What a sap! Did he really think he could take on the whole Al Capone organization?" No, instead, I'd admire the man's grit.

 

[Thin Black Line]

You mean like enjoying all the benefits of federal government .....

Bart, have you signed those enlistment papers yet? You know I get $2000
if you do ....hey, that didn't hurt....how about you? Someone pays and
someone doesn't, huh? Ah...."enjoying the benefits"....

Bart, if you're going to open up the debate about "right and wrong" then
we could add in soooo many other things that mods are quick to lock here,
right? Like abortion? Right? RIGHT?

No, you and the compartmentalized mission of THR can't handle it, so don't
bother. The Federalist Papers could handle many topics, but we can't.

Divide and Conquer.

 

[Thin Black Line]

True, but what's your point? Most Chicago businessmen paid a large part of their income to Al Capone too. Did that make Al Capone's operation just?

LOL, good one.....oh, wait, must adjust thinking patterns....
How dare you compare government to a criminal element! How dare you!
.....wait a second...

Must...get...independent....thought....back.....

Which of the Founding Fathers said something to the effect of "government
is not about eloquence, it's about force"? There was something much earlier,
though, how about "Might makes right"? Is that the(moral)highroad?

Let us revel in our moral relativism.....

 

[mpmarty]

"If more Americans were like him, we'd still have a free country." No, we wouldn't we'd have the whole world dictating to us because we would lack the ability to tell the other countries to "take a hike". We would lose all the things that make this a functioning society because if one wise ass can claim exemption from income taxes then all of us can and that shuts down economy as the government will simply print what it needs to pay its bills and we would see the kind of inflation that Germany had in the early-mid twentieth century where you needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread, if you could find a loaf of bread.

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

Everyone must pay their fair share to the government. If you don't, they'll kill you for it...

But it's still a free country right?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

"If more Americans were like him, we'd still have a free country." No, we wouldn't we'd have the whole world dictating to us because we would lack the ability to tell the other countries to "take a hike". We would lose all the things that make this a functioning society because if one wise ass can claim exemption from income taxes then all of us can and that shuts down economy as the government will simply print what it needs to pay its bills and we would see the kind of inflation that Germany had in the early-mid twentieth century where you needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread, if you could find a loaf of bread.

Not true at all. If all income taxes disappeared tomorrow, the Federal Government would still have as much annual revenues flowing in as it had under the last year of George Herbert Walker Bush's presidency. Or would you claim that this would be an insufficient amount to run the Federal Government in accordance with its Constitutionally delegated powers, one of which is national defense?

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

You mean like enjoying all the benefits of federal government

You mean like sending billions of dollars to Africa gratis? Or giving more money to private airlines whose Executive's use that money to ensure their bonus checks don't bounce? Or all that Federal cash being used to support a blatantly unConstitutional organization like the BATFE (remember that the FedGov is only supposed to have those powers ASSIGNED to it, regulating alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are not listed). Running a multi-trillion dollar drug give away program absent Constitutional authority? Funding studies on cow farts? Building bridges from no where to no where in Alaska?

I can list off agency after agency, pork barrel program after pork barrel program. But you think we should be "grateful" and pony up 1/3 of our income to keep the gravy train rolling under threat of death?

If the Fedgov was only carrying out those function specifically listed in the Constitution, it'd be 1/100th the size it is now and could be funded mostly off of excise taxes. But that doesn't get politicians elected now does it?

Tax protesters are our "coal mine canaries". They let us know when the lethal gas coming off government are getting dangerous. Heed the warning.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Bart, have you signed those enlistment papers yet? You know I get $2000

Yes, I signed them back in 1992. Good luck getting Uncle Sam to pay up though.

No, you and the compartmentalized mission of THR can't handle it, so don't bother.

THR doesn't have the same mission as the Federalist Papers. However the wonderful thing about the Internet is that if you don't find what you like on a particular forum, you are free to keep looking until you find one that does meet your needs. For example, http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/ discusses a broader range of topics and has many of the same members and moderators as THR.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

But you think we should be "grateful" and pony up 1/3 of our income to keep the gravy train rolling under threat of death?

No, I think you should use your representation and work to change things. I'll give Ed Brown credit for one thing... I may not agree with his conclusions; but he at least tried to do something about it besides complain on the Internet.

You also seem to be missing the argument made. Ed Brown isn't claiming that his tax money is being spent unwisely or that he doesn't feel he is getting effective representation for his tax money. He is saying he doesn't have to pay income tax. Period.

 

[PILMAN]

I've heard of the tax evaders before, their claim is that no law says you have to file income taxes or something like that. A friend showed me a pretty interesting documentary about it

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...2198&q=aaron+russo+american+freedom+to+facism

Not sure how valid it is, but the guy does have somewhat of a point, where is the law that states you have to pay taxes on labor?

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

No, I think you should use your representation and work to change things.

Is this the same representation that gave me all those nice juicy taxes to begin with? And asking them to stop what they are doing will do exactly what again? Has this approach worked at any time in the last say, 70 years? No? Ah well... we might as well give it one more try then right?

He is saying he doesn't have to pay income tax. Period.

Yes. I'm aware of that. And why do you think he feels that way? Is he just greedy? Or does he think the tax burden is so utterly ridiculous these days that something must be done to change things? That he's grasping at any straw to try and keep what is rightfully his? Even a straw as weak and utterly nonsensical as most of the tax protester arguments so obviously are...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is this the same representation that gave me all those nice juicy taxes to begin with?

It is unless you choose to do something about it. Representation in the House (where all tax bills originate) is up for reelection every two years. Around 30 incumbent Representatives were just tossed out of their position, so while not an easy task - it does appear to be a possible task.

Not sure how valid it is, but the guy does have somewhat of a point, where is the law that states you have to pay taxes on labor?

Already covered this subject earlier in the thread, including a nice deconstruction of this argument from a Libertarian tax reform advocate who opposes income tax.

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

so while not an easy task - it does appear to be a possible task.

And the ones "We the People" voted in are the same ones who like to RAISE the taxation levels.

So, we should blame our fellow voters? Aren't these the same ones you are counting on to "do the right thing"?

Bread and circus'. That is all anyone votes on these days. It was the downfall of Rome, it is becoming OUR downfall as well. Or do you honestly think the 50% of the US population currently on some form of government assistance will willing give this "free" money up?

 

[Thin Black Line]

Yes, I signed them back in 1992. Good luck getting Uncle Sam to pay up though.

I'll have to find someone to write something into law about it --kind of like
the tuna workers minimum wage exemption the Democrats do or the no-bid
military procurement contracts the republicans do. Ah, no pain whatsover.

 

[Kali Endgame]

Impose a flat rate federal sales tax. Eliminate the income tax. That way nobody could wiggle out of it. A federal sals tax would be paid by all. Not just the people who can't shelter their money.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Kali, the point is the rules have been set up for certain elements to wiggle.

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

Impose a flat rate federal sales tax. Eliminate the income tax. That way nobody could wiggle out of it. A federal sals tax would be paid by all. Not just the people who can't shelter their money.

It'd be a good start, and yes I've read Boortz's book and Linder's legislation, but it doesn't address all the extra-Constitutional spending Congress does and we let them get away with.

What good is it to put in a "revenue neutral" system if you are still paying out the wazoo for socialist welfare programs and government boondoggles?

 

[Manedwolf]

Impose a flat rate federal sales tax. Eliminate the income tax. That way nobody could wiggle out of it.

One problem. Black market.

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

One problem. Black market.

How much of a problem is the current black market?

Nothing would change.

 

[White Horseradish]

How much of a problem is the current black market?

Nothing would change.

Well, depends on what goods you are talking about.

Have you looked at the market for marijuana, cocaine, etc. ?

 

[Eleven Mike]

That's right --let's not discuss situations and historical circumstances that lead up to shooting.

Correct. It is a GUN forum.