Could this become a Waco/Ruby Ridge? Happening RIGHT NOW!

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Glockfan, I suspect many of us on this board are not that different from each other in certain basic principles. We are just viewing these stories from different angles. I suspect I am as well read on the Constitution as you, and believe in it just as strongly. But there are ways to protest, and this, under these circumstances, doesnt appear to be one of them.
 
all that says is that someone who hasnt bothered to pay any taxes for ten years "tried to work out a [unspecified] payment plan" (in their words). They may well have offered something rediculous, like a dollar a week for all we know..we don't have enough facts on that point.
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Kind of like the bank robber saying 'hey, I offered them the money back, jeez what more do they want"
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neither of these two things have anything in common at all. your statement is a load of crap.

As the story reads, this couple TRIED to talk to the IRS to make arrangements for payment. It is irrelevant what the terms were because the IRS NEVER RESPONDED. So instead of trying to play catchup with this couple, the IRS goes for their power play....the courts. Halfway through the governments strong arm, half of the couple says 'enough'. Maybe he's reached his point of being reasonably regulated. As gun owners and 2nd Amendment supporters, nobody should know any better than us, the pains we've made to be reasonable and still have our faces rubber stamped.

Is this guy loony? maybe
Is this guy asking for trouble from the .gov? most certainly
Is this guy in the right? who the hell really knows anymore. At one point in history, this would have never happened because the gov would have made an effort to reach a balanced settlement. This last century? they don't care anymore. They have seen many times that the people will not stand up to them, why the hell should they care?

experience should tell all of us that any issue that arises where the .gov is hampered, in any way, is going to result in media portrayal that this guy is unbalanced, violent, anti-gov, militant, radical, and psycho simply to make sure that popular opinion is squarely on .gov side.

make up your own mind here. If you feel that paying taxes at any demand is patriotic and lawful, then by all means....call this guy a kook.

If you feel the .gov never plays a fair hand...then idolize this guy.

either way, we'll see the strong arm of the law come down on him one way or another....yet again.
 
Jim first off I am not attacking you, if it seems like I am I apologize.
after her tax bill significantly exceeded her estimates one year
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It sounds like she ended up with more money due than she expected to owe and didnt have the disposable cash to pay in full. When she tried to work out a payment plan the IRS ignored her and fined her. Sounds to me like two people were about to be seriously screwed by the courts, and this guy decided that he would sooner go down taking a stand against an unfair system rather than end up in prison or as a poverty slave for the rest of his life. I can respect that.
 
DK, so let me get this straight....I don't pay taxes for ten years and when I'm caught the IRS is a bully for forcing me to pay...I like it! Lets all do it... you first though. You guys are ignoring the fact that the article says they didnt pay taxes for a decade...they are NOT the posterchildren for the hardworking couple trying to do the right thing and kicked by the system. And th efact that she "seriously underestimated her taxes" just means she made a lot of money and chose not to set any aside for taxes like the rest of us have to. Again, maybe some of you are aware of more facts than those set out in the article that began this thread. If so, maybe my opinion is misguided. If not, then DK, your snide remarks aside, I think the bank robber wanting to return the money analogy is right on. Whatever.
 
Okay, I'll chime in again.

And I'll admit that I haven't read past about post 73. Haven't had time.

One thing to remember about the taxes they owe is that, while she didn't pay the payroll withholding taxes to the government, she probably did withhold them from her employees. Otherwise the employees would have blown the whistle on them a lot earlier. And I'd be very surprised if the payroll taxes she owes aren't the bulk of their liability.

So, what that means is that she's withheld the $$ from her employees under the guise of sending it to the government on their behalf, then didn't send it. That, folks, is not just being a tax protester. It's being a thief. Still on her side?
 
DK, so let me get this straight....I don't pay taxes for ten years and when I'm caught the IRS is a bully for forcing me to pay...I like it! Lets all do it... you first though. You guys are ignoring the fact that the article says they didnt pay taxes for a decade...they are NOT the posterchildren for the hardworking couple trying to do the right thing and kicked by the system. And th efact that she "seriously underestimated her taxes" just means she made a lot of money and chose not to set any aside for taxes like the rest of us have to. Again, maybe some of you are aware of more facts than those set out in the article that began this thread. If so, maybe my opinion is misguided. If not, then DK, your snide remarks aside, I think the bank robber wanting to return the money analogy is right on. Whatever.
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agreed
 
Well that makes you a hypocrite and a coward, since you are not willing to take any risk whatsoever to stand up for what you believe.
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DMF I hope this thread doesnt get locked because you had to take it to that level. This is a good topic for THR one that I think we should all watch. If you would like to make a not THR reply to me please do it in a PM. One day this could be what happens to the guy that decides he doesnt want to hand over the guns that feds decide he shouldnt have. While I can agree with your sentiment no debate is ever won by personal attacks.
 
Oh, yeah.

If they "severely underestimated her taxes" I have to ask HOW? Estimated taxes are calculated based on one's un-withholdable income (wages & salaries). She knew if she was making more money than the year before. Simply tell your accountant and have them recalculate the amount you should be paying in if you don't want to owe a bunch when the taxes are due. And frankly, any accountant worth their salt already calculates the estimates to penalty proof the client. So they owe a chunk next April. Big deal! They've had most of a year to enjoy the extra income. Pay up like the rest of us.
 
I am really trying, but i fail to see the "courage" in this. Should we call it courage when a man breaks the law and then runs from the cops because he see's his crime as just? To live in this country we must obey laws or we have the "freedom" to leave. People risk their lives to try to come to this country. We must be doing SOMETHING right. Just my $.02.
 
They say that they can't find a statute that says that they legally have to pay their taxes.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
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I hope they didn't get any advice from a lawyer or accountant... if so, he/she really screwed the pooch.

They don't deserve our respect for evading taxes. They deserve 3 hots and a cot in the local pokey.
 
The Browns, who were charged with conspiring to evade taxes, conspiring to disguise large financial transactions and disguising large transactions, maintained there was no law requiring them to pay federal income taxes.

The article is a little ambiguous, but from the above I would bet that we're talking about more than just "getting behind" in taxes ONE year.
 
I don't care to hypothesize on his motivations, but I will point this out:

1. He made the decision a decade ago to stop paying taxes and become a outlaw against his goverment.

2. Since then he has enjoyed an increased income, which means more purchasing power.

3. His house apparently has eight inch thick concrete walls, is large, and he has a tractor parked in front of the door.

4. It is known that he has firearms.

I think that he may have been preparing for this event for the last ten years. If so, then his home will now be nearly impregnable to invasion and he most likely has stockpiled food, ammo, and weapons. This event will either last a very long time(more than a month), or will end very violently. Unless Big Brother wants to borrow an Abrams from the local NG:evil: , good guys are going to get hurt along with the bad when whatever is going to happen happens.
 
The Real Hawkeye wrote:
If armed agents attempt to force entry, he has a right to resist this violent aggression with all force necessary. Tax on wages is theft.
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taxation is not theft unless you define it your own set of terms that benefit you for your particular political cause. if armed agents attempt to force entry he does not have the right to shoot them. forcing entry is not tantamount to pointing a gun at him.

Hawkeye, this makes no sense to anyone except right wing extremists.....
 
heh heh

yes, this could become another waco/ruby ridge. A guy breaks a law and then shoots the federal agent coming to take him to jail.

OH, is that what those were? We are all such pawns, really. Me included, we don't know the real story, all we know is that something is going on between the government and a dude. He disagrees with them, vice versa.

Meanwhile we all pay rent to exist.
ST
 
Then you turn around and say capital gains from investments ARE income. However, the market has determined the item sold (stock, bonds, etc) have a certain market value, and therefore those items were traded for the fair market value.
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Yes, but all that matters is that you gained from the exchange. Simply by being the owner of the stock for a period of time, you have realized gain over your investment, i.e., you got more out of it than you put in. With your salary, however, you get out of it the exact value of what you put in (i.e., your labor), so there is no gain, and no income. What goes out (your labor) equals what comes in (your salary). Income equals outgo, so no net gain, no profit, no taxable income. Just as when the candy store owner makes no profit - i.e., his investment in acquiring the candy wholesale, combined with overhead, equals his gross profits - he has no reportable or taxable income.
 
selective

While the taxation of wages is anti-Christian in principle, going against what I interpret as a foundational element of long term, functional (read:inspired) government, we have to select our battles. This is not one I choose to fight.

The problem is I don't know if anyone is willing to fight for anything anymore. Except the Chinese. And Hezbollah. And Hugo Chavez, hero of 'the people'.

"Local extremist gun owner resists mandatory chip implantation and threatens to use his bolt action .22 caliber high power assault rifle, threatening nearby neighbors and a town. Such weapons were banned 4 years ago as terrorists showed a renewed interest in downgrading from nuclear warheads, box cutters, and derailed toxic trains. Police Chief Bill Meindphuk says, "He WILL be assimilated".

ST
 
Meanwhile we all pay rent to exist.
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That is what government does, they make you pay to exist and provide things they will not allow people to provide for themselves, setting standards for how it is done. They take more than society can get by without, and then decide where and to whom to give back some of the money back to. People then compete for favor with them by following thier requirements to be given money. Everyone changes thier policies at the local level to qualify under thier standards to be given some of the taxes they took from society back in the form of federal aid etc. Thousands of people controlling millions of people. It has been so since the dawn of civilization. Thousands cannot control millions directly, they must do so by fear, creating fear necessitates making examples of those that step out of line.
It creates uniform policies and a nation more similar in policies than unique at the state level. If your state wants to be too unique they are cut off from federal funding, but still are required to give the same amount. Giving a large amount but having none returned starves the state who then adopts the standards required to qualify for a return of some of taxes the state pays. If your using federal funds the feds have a say in how you spend it. Thus the feds can technicaly control everything with the power to tax. The incentive at the state and local level to have some of what the people pay in taxes given to them for free in addition to thier own income for projects is great and the politicians stumble over eachother to adhere to federal policies and qualify. So you see the federal government's power is only as great as thier power to tax. Prior to the federal income tax they had limited power as was designed by the founding fathers. Through taxation however the scope of federal power now exceeds state power across the board. Since everything can be twisted to involve interstate commerce at some point, the courts enable them to tax virtualy anything.

As far as the large transactions, that does not necessarily mean they were all profit. Whenever a large amount of cash changes hands a percent of it must be paid in taxes. It does not matter if only 5% of that total was profit and the other 95% covers the cost of the service being provided. Take real estate for example where the profit of someone buying and selling a home might be under $3,000, but the total price was $500,000. Now assume they bought it one month and sold in the next in what was a new fiscal year, of seperate taxes. Technicaly they just made $500,000 income until it is corrected in deductions to adjust for actual profit. However if they filed no tax return the IRS would likely say you owed taxes on that $500,000 because no paperwork has been filed to show otherwise. That $500,000 would put them in the top tax bracket meaning they owed about 50% of it. So they would owe on paper $250,000, when in reality they only made $3,000 profit. So it would be possible to owe more than one made in a given year if the IRS is left to assume because no taxes were filed.
Just because large sums of money are changing hands does not mean a person has money to spare. People starting a business often spends tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands in initial costs, none of which is profit and are loans that must be paid back with interest. Taxes still must be paid on the cash changing hands. Even if they make a normal living, but the income puts them in the top income bracket before the cost is factored in they still owe around 50% of all that cash in taxes if they cannot show expenses. If they didn't file taxes they were not showing expenses. So they can actualy owe more than they made in a given year under this principle. They could have made $30,000 profit in a year but the transaction consisted of hundreds of thousands that they owe taxes on because no tax forms were filed to show it was not all profit changing hands.
With fees and assumptions intentionaly made by the IRS to encourage them to file they could owe millions and be a lower middle class family that won't make that much in the remainder of thier live's. Straightening it all out with the expense of court and lawyers that costs tens of thousands it is very likely they will lose thier home and all thier assets at the minimum. He may have seen this and just flipped, realizing that compliance might lead to a better result, but one he will still be paying for the remainder of thier lives.
 
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