earlthegoat2
Member
This thread should rock the boat a little. One persons reason why not to get a FiveseveN
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563&highlight=fn
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563&highlight=fn
This thread should rock the boat a little. One persons reason why not to get a FiveseveN
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...3&highlight=fn
For traditional handguns this may be true, but understand on a living target, ballistic gelatin is only half the battle. The reason the 5.7mm is still viable is that its velocity is high enough that it can penetrate a torso and still be moving at a high enough velocity that the shockwave can ripple through tissue. But a lot of people also misunderstand the terminal ballistics of small calibres on humans at close range.
The 5.7x28 out of a pistol is a far cry from the amount of energy carried by a .308 or something of that nature, so it would be tough to believe the shockwave thing IMO. There are plenty of veterans that have been hit with high powered rifle rounds near the spine and lived to tell about it. My uncle was one of them. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe for a minute that this little bullet fired from a handgun is going to produce enough velocity in the surrounding tissue to cause permanent damage anywhere other than in the permanent cavity....remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.
I think a lot of the arguments for expansion come wounding effects on animals. What you need to realize is that humans have a MUCH more sensitive nervous system. We have well over a hundred billion neurons in a very small body. Most animals our size have 1/10th that. Especially with deer, they have a thick body and for a pressure wave affect the spine and central nervous system, you'd have to have a very fast bullet penetrating very deep and crossing close to the spine.
A significant shock to our nervous system, either from the energy of a large bullet, or a small bullet at great velocity, will usually incapacitate more readily than large flesh wounds. People lose arms and legs, and get impaled by large objects and live to tell about it. Some drive themselves to the hospital. Few people are able function after the shock of a high-velocity bullet that crosses anywhere near the spine or major nerve.
The number of neurons in the body is absolutely irrelevant if you are speaking of physical incapacitation.
I wouldn't worry about man-stopping performance... I mean honestly, how many of us live in cities and routinely are faced with situation so bad we need to be concerned about whether or not we're packing a firearm 24/7 that can stop a drug-binging psychopath in one shot?
The permanent cavity is about the only thing that will produce this "system shock". You put a permanent cavity (a hole) in parts that are not supposed to have holes. There is no such handgun bullet that radiates magical "shockwaves" that will cause incapacitation by proxy.But causing a permanent cavity is secondary to causing enough system shock to prevent them from successfully hurting you.
Dr. Mary Case, a board-certified neuropathologist and forensic pathologist with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner’s Office and the St. Louis University School of Medicine, Dr. Michael Graham, a forensic pathologist with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner’s Office and the St. Louis University School of Medicine, COL. Charles Van Way, a general surgeon with the U.S. Army 325th General Hospital, and Dr. Thomas Helling, the Director of Trauma Surgery at St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, reviewed Chapter 2, "A Neurologist’s View of ‘Stopping Power’". These well qualified scientists are unanimous in their condemnation of this material.
The absurd claims made in this chapter, as well as the similar remarks on pages 6, 7, and 176, regarding the ability of a bullet to remotely stress and shock the central nervous system (CNS) are grossly inaccurate and completely unsupported by any accepted scientific evidence according to Dr. Case. This pseudoscientific speculation is presented as verified scientific fact, yet allusion to Göransson’s discredited data is the only scientific reference the authors cite to support their unjustified claims.1 Dr. Helling remarks that this material: "...relates to anecdotal experience and pure hypothesis," while Dr. Van Way states that it: "...would seem not only to be without supporting evidence, but to contradict common sense."
A thorough review of the scientific literature relating to wound ballistics has failed to identify any valid research papers which demonstrate that projectiles can exert a remote effect on the CNS.
Here are the links. There's more data out there, but these are two good ones to look at:
ome on, if you're using a weapon in a life or death situation, it's a matter of life or death. I don't care where you are, or who you're defending against...if you don't take it seriously enough to require maximum power and capability, you shouldn't be using the gun. So choose the biggest/most powerful gun you can shoot AND carry, and don't deploy it unless you are in a SERIOUS situation
The FBI manual also presented no findings against hydrostatic shock, it just made claims about what it recommends for conventional handgun bullets. As we all know by our crazy laws, people in governmental bureaucracy aren't always the most intelligent bunch.
Basically, the theory that a near hit with a high-v round could damage the spinal cord doesn't hold weight.... not because hydrostatic shock doesn't exist, but because muscle is very elastic tissue, and bone which is thick and shaped the way human spine and neck bones are shaped to deflect glancing blows.
Of course a direct hit will kill or paralyze, but the tissues which surround the spine are designed to take damage.
Basically, hydrostatic shock has a much worse effect on low flexibility tissues like the liver, pancreas, brain, and spleen. But muscle tissues in the body tend to handle the stress of hydrostatic shock better.
And, the whole nervous system thing doesn't really hold water. The main difference between humans and other mammals is in the brain. That is where the real neuron difference is. Other mammals have just as complex a nervous system through the body...
I tell you what to everyone saying that the 5.7 cartridge isnt enough. I have three 30 round mags for my FiveSeveN and I garantee I can hit headshots with it out to 35 yards. I shot a wild hog with it in the ear, he dropped instantly. Its all about shot placement with any firearm and this one is just as good if you follow that rule. I do wish Crimson Trace would make a laser for it though.
Not this againBefore considering the Five-Seven as a HD/SD gun, consider the Harold Fish Case. The Five-Seven round (depending on which you buy) is designed to pierce body armor and in the wrong circumstances could get you in trouble.
Not this again
All harold fish showed when it comes to choice in firearms was that a prosecutor can try to say anything they want. The firearm choice had nothing to do with him being found guilty. Feel free to use whatever caliber you want provided you can hit your target. Take into consideration the dangers of over-penetration, muzzle flash, muzzle noise, etc.
As one of the owners of EA I have to say something since I have never read SOMUCH incorrect BS on any forum anywhere about our ammunition.
Harold Fish
Based on all the reports I have seen I would carry a FiveSeven as a CCW because of it's "one shot drop" reputation,